No. No. No. A healthy person would complain, because they would object to being spoken to that way. An unhealthy person remains silent, because they fear the accusation is true.


Well, here is the biggest MB 2x4 I know how to deliver.

You can be like LA and the thousands of other MB-ers who have chosen to get started and who have built better lives for themselves. People who have tried to MB, and succeeded. And people who tried MB and failed, and got divorced, and got remarried, and now have happy relationships. But to be like them, you have to get started on changing.

Or you can give in to your fear. Hide. Withdraw. Accept mistreatment. You can hold on to your fear and your resentment and your loathing of him and your self-loathing and not bother to even try changing because you are so sure that change won't make things better.

In other words, you can be like me. Your choice. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Did he say what? You lost me.


I don't know yet. I'm too turned off right now to think about it. The thought of kissing him irritates me.

He told me why he doesn't want to let the stool go. He thought I should have sold the drums for $300, what I paid for them 10 years ago. He thought I should not have included the stool in what she paid, but he thought she paid $100, and she paid $125, and the stool barely costs that much ($25), so it evens out. I told him that. He thought we should have just donated it to the school rather than selling it so cheap.

It's a pattern. Any time I do something like this (IB, decided to sell something) he picks apart my decision, what I asked for it, etc. I tried to handle it this time by letting HIM talk to the lady and negotiate whatever he wanted. He never even brought up the price. He'll gripe to me til the cows come home, but once he meets the person, he acts like everything is fine.

Thanks for the pep talk, LA. I needed it. From you and ears and everyone else.

Aw, hold, you need to give yourself more credit. I'm amazed at the changes you've made, things you've said.

Well, I have decided to be proud of myself today. A year ago, I got my hand slapped by a bunch of posters and I nearly crawled away in shame; I practically begged them to forgive me for 'offending' them by saying what I thought, which disagreed with them. I even offered to leave and never come back.

Today, when I got a hand slap, I teared up for a second in shame, but then realized what that was all about, and stopped myself. I don't have to apologize for being, and thinking, especially when I'm (IMO) being respectful in my posts.

Yay me for learning!

I am so glad to hear that, cat! We are all working together towards the same goal, and it's great that you can take feedback and incorporate it and keep working together towards common goals instead of isolating. And did you read that compliment in there, too! What an honor!

Well I've been looking for somewhere to thank you for the recommendation of the book 52 invitations, this looks like a good place, I'm glad you're not feeling too upset. I just sent the first invite to my hubby a couple of days ago and we had a wonderful evening. Thankyou again.

Gigantic kudos, Cat, for being aware of your changed response...seeing your stuff, understanding it and not reacting to it. I'm not sure I could have done the same, btw.

To clarify, I was asking when he said what he did about selling the house for $50 and that he was done. Then I realized you'd planned your garage sale for April, so it must have been recent.

You knew it would be hard on him...you know his issues about shame and guilt...doing wrong...making mistakes. You knew the sale was going to be hurtful inside him....and you, I think, felt the old pattern of taking in his shame, his guilt, his stuff...and it wasn't about you.

He wants to be done with his own patterns, the ones that hurt, the routine of lash out, lash in, feel awful, distract, shift blame, feel awful, last out, lash in, feel awful, distract.

Might be projection on my part. I sure was...and it took what it took to stop that cycle that had my life clutched in its hands.

I understand you're still too turned off...which seems to me is the permission to do that which you feel like, and not do that which you don't. Which is what is in operation with H...and causes so much self-pain.

You phrased his statements well, as his own opinions, his stuff. Then I saw you reach in and make them about you, really. Which is reasonable given his statements. Not reasonable knowing they are his, anyway.



You acted for the marriage...you were brave, you informed him ahead of time of what you knew would hit his fear, irritation, hurt and anger zones. He can't pick apart your decision...he didn't AO when you said you were planning it, then doing it...he didn't do a lot of what you feared he would.

He's changing. This was big. Don't pick him apart.

You did the respectful thing...got out of the way and he didn't take the opportunity. Maybe next time he will. Doesn't mean by the OUTCOME you did the wrong thing. You did the respectful thing. So don't disrespect now by taking in his stuff as criticism of you instead of sharing his wishfulness for what didn't happen.

Do you want to know him, or to protect yourself against him, making him your enemy? It's a reminder. No one wants to kiss their enemy to my way of thinking...and your H is not your enemy.

Funny thing about you thinking this was IB...when taking your H to get a physical he hasn't had in 15 years would then be considered an IB, too...knows it has to be done...hits a primal fear...full of refusal and delay...and then he sees it going, being done...and may see it as left out (the IB part you're getting) and his way of being a part is criticizing, revising, sharing he's thoughts, wishes, disappointments...

you are in his thoughts
you are part of his wishes
you are not a disappointment

I think you feel picked apart when you pick apart...when you narrow and narrow down what response you want to insure your own disappointment, anger, frustration with him. A pattern.

Like his.

Work together through it...understand your own bravery and please see his....he was present...may have been really tough for him...might not...you not knowing is you not holding yourself to intimacy...

'cuz ya don't feel like it.

And he holds onto stuff, from fear, driving you crazy, 'cuz he feels like it.

You amaze him...you do what he tells himself he cannot...you cut out his appreciation and admiration by drowning your focus on his negativity. Do you want to know him or judge him?

Do you want to be in love with him or be right?

Did you say, "Ouch" when you took his statement to be derogatory of you? Do it now. You won't amend your actions, when you cross your boundary of respect...when you DJ.

And then you rail at him in your mind because he won't.

You can do this, Cat. Next step, an important one. I see you hanging onto your urge for control, scorekeeping, making him change, in the hand you didn't know you were hiding behind your back.

He's your ally. He's your partner.

Speak. Share. Tell him what you hear. Share your filter.

Believe it or not, your prayers are answered when you do what you ask for most...you cull the negativity out of your filter of him. Maybe you'll hear less negativity coming FROM him.

Enmeshment...what a wonder, and a pain...do not allow it to divide or decide for you...understand it.

LA

Thanks, Rosy. I'm glad it helped.

Thank you, ears, as always, for making me feel good. You should be a counselor.

LA, it's amazing that you can find the exact right time to bring something up. Just this morning I was thinking that my next step is to be O&H. Maybe because of talking to OH (no pun intended) about her problems with the same thing - which obviously is because we're married to the same man, lol. We have both conditioned ourselves to avoid. So much easier.

So, yeah, I think I'm ready for that next step of awareness and O&H. I actually do try to control a lot, and hate myself for it. A year ago, I could never have said 'I want to sell the drumset, what do you think?' A month ago, I still couldn't say it, and just did it on my own without telling him (that's the IB I was talking about). Last night, I asked him 'what do you think about bringing Taylor's food inside*?' and he said that seemed fine to him. So I'm pushing myself to talk to him more to make joint decisions and to provide him with information. I know it will make a huge difference.

*For those who care, lol, our dog Taylor has always lived outside; she pees when she's nervous, so out she went. A year ago, we had to put our indoor dog to sleep (a chow, the alpha dog). Since then, Taylor has really come around, less submissive, no more nervousness, since Balto is gone. And since we back up to the woods, we get all kinds of critters in our yard - at night. So we've been letting Taylor sleep indoors so the critters don't scare her to death. The problem though is that they (and all the birds!) have been eating up all her food on the patio! At first I thought she was eating more now that Balto's gone, but then we found the evidence of the other animals coming in. So now I think we need to just go ahead and move her inside, food and all, so I can quit feeding the entire forest.

****edit****

Um...ok? You are telling me this why? Because I said I was proud of myself?

If so, please read my (massive) thread to realize that (1) my pride issue has nothing at all to do with her thread - or her - and is only about me - thus coming to my own thread to talk about my own issues and progress or lack thereof; (2) the occasion mentioned happened a year ago and had nothing to do with current posters; (3) I did leave the thread you're referring to out of courtesy so as to no longer offend; (4) I mentioned her thread here in my own as little as possible so as to no longer offend; (5) the 'repeatedly' you mentioned happened once by the OP and I responded with my explanation once last night and once this morning in 2 posts - back to back - and it occurred before I had even read Dr Harley's posts (although I edited after realizing he had posted and reviewed it to make sure it was as respectful as possible), so there is no 'repeatedly'; (6) What I did say I still stand behind because IMO she is harming her own marriage through the actions I discussed and isn't she here to repair her marriage? A lot of us don't like hearing that our choices may not be perfect, but if we are sincere in our desire to learn and improve we listen to everyone's thoughts, even those that cause us the most distress. It was her choice not to and to report me as malicious (or was that you?); (7) I'm fully aware of procedures and thus removed myself from her thread; and (8) I believe that I have been at MB long enough to sense what is proper etiquette.

Occasionally a poster does what others consider is inappropriate. If the mods tell them so, they are expected to defer - which I did, once I saw Dr Harley's posts. He felt it was inadequate, he adjusted the thread, I accepted that decision, and I left the thread. Is there something else you feel I should have done?

Hey Cat - I didn't see the deleted posts but I agreed with your other posts. I think you handled yourself very well.

bk, thank you! That means a lot! I really appreciate it.

Today, when I got a hand slap, I teared up for a second in shame, but then realized what that was all about, and stopped myself. I don't have to apologize for being, and thinking, especially when I'm (IMO) being respectful in my posts.

Yay me for learning!

May I give a piece of my rusty, beaten up, often targeted "crown" to YOU! I feel it is sometimes a badge of honor when you stand up for something you believe in that is important, in order to try and help some poster having problems and the mods or authority or whatever removes your post.

IT can mean many things:

1. The poster got a little nervous or triggered and reported you.

2. Another poster reacted and reported

3. You were passionate and pushed too much to try and help

4. Someone got ticked off....who knows why...


It has happened to me many times! Way too many to count. And I am sort of PROUD of it since maybe what was triggered by me could have been in the long run.....helpful!

YOU GO GIRL!!!

Cat I wanted to tell you also that a few times I had to take a break from the board, it became a mild addiction for me at times. I guess you know you are addicted to helping people if thinking about staying off the MB board for 4 days or so..... is....impossible for you to think about....!

Very true, bubbles. I know I'm getting strokes by coming here and giving advice. I have an addictive personality (toxic shame), so it's hard to stop doing something that feels good. Good advice.

What I really need is to find something else to do, lol. I'm trying to build up my exercise routine, and it's garden time! And I want to spend more time with D18 before she leaves.

The number one thing I want to work on is visiting with friends. I am SO bad about it, because I enjoy being alone so much. But I need to push that comfort zone and become more outgoing. My boss even put that on my review last year, lol. Part of my job this year is to get out of my office and talk to the other employees. How weird is that?

I hear ya. Sometimes friends can let you down. Or for me, I am rusty at going out there and it takes so much effort. Or it can be dissapointing. Today I am going to have a girl come help me in my office. And am going out to lunch with investment folks, they are not friends though.

I like you am trying to get a workout thing going. I feel great when I do this. I want to walk 40 minutes a day, three days a week, and then 3 hours on one weekend day (the long walk) every week.

If I can get on that then I can incorporate weight lifting here or at the gym. We have an eliptical machine I can use here in case of bad weather outside.

Are you on Facebook?

It's hard to talk to people when you have low self-esteem (toxic shame), because you keep waiting for them to 'realize' that you're a waste of time, you know?

Every once in a while, I'll get caught up in a conversation, just start talking a lot, and - being ever observant - I'll catch a look on someone's face that I read to mean 'geez, will she just shut up?' Who knows what they are really thinking, but my shame tells me that's what it is. And then I want to crawl in a hole, because I envision them going back to where they were and thinking bad things about me. It's debilitating!

My church's youth group leader got me (all of us) to sign up on facebook. I don't really know anything about it. What's weird, a couple weeks later, I get a notice from a childhood classmate wanting to reconnect! That was so weird.

I feel as you do about people. There was a time I had many friends but these friends were all "defective" as my husband calls it.

Looking back, these were friends that were dysfunctional enough to "accept me". These dysfunctional friends brough thier own stress into our friendship but it was nothing I was not used to because of my dysfunctional family. My husband has helped me eliminate some of these dysfunctional friends but I have no friends who are normal to replace them with. The dysfunctional wonder why I dont call them again. It is because my husband refuses to associate with them.

I went to a gathering of "normal people" a few weeks ago to support a woman with cancer and noticed that around these "normals" I was very tense. I watched what I said for appropriatness, did not drink more than one drink, etc. Still, after I got home I critiqued my behavior in a bad way.

1. I brought too much food (to please them of course)
2. I talked too much
3. I brought the cancer girl too many gifts
4. I stayed too long
5. They won't want me for a friend.
6. They can see how insecure I am.

My husband asks why all my friends were and are dysfunctional and now I know why. I guess I attract dysfuncionals since these are the ones I accept and these accept me. Many of these people have few friends.

*We need to build up our inner self esteem Cat!

When I am in a group of people,

I never ask myself, "Do I like this or that person". NEVER.

I always ask myself, " Does this person like me, could they stand me, etc?"

It is stressful and makes "making friends" stressful also.

Wow. I would not have expected that of you, bubbles. You seem so confident.

Like Stella is saying, maybe the problem is that you aren't already in contact with a lot of quality people? Cat, how about brainstorming with abandon with your H to think of places where you would like to make friends? Would that make some LB$ deposits for you?