Thank you for that refresher Mark.

Y'all gave me so much to think about yesterday and the day before. Making me read, think, and write, and then giving your feedback so I can see how what I'm thinking can be viewed differently... Very powerful. I got up this morning with a bit of a different perspective and also re-newed vigor to fix myself and help H.

Then I log on and wow! More for me to digest. Thank you!

I will read and post throughout the day.

L4 - I want you to know that I so admire all that you're doing for yourself and your H and your family. You're a special lady.

Hi Mark,

I get what you are saying but I had one question that I have not seen the answer to here. How often does MB work versus other programs? I'm thinking that knowing that number might prove inspirational to people working the program.

I was thinking of this again Wednesday night, V. (Was going to talk about this yesterday until the boards went down.) I agree, based on what I've read here, how my emotions and frustrations with my Plan A might mirror what a BS experiences. Where there are many similarities, there are differences too. I can't know what my BH is going through nor any BS. Neither a BS's nor a WS's path is easier.

While a BS is battling feelings of shame, humiliation, and devastation as you mentioned, a WS's version includes battling shame and her lack of respect and integrity. And that look of destruction on your BS's face, every time you look at him. That reminder of what you've done to one whom you love.

BSs still have their integrity. They still have their respect. You didn't violate your H. You didn't lie to him. You didn't crush him to his core.

I'm trying to convince H that I'm not only good enough for him, but that I'm also worthy of that trust and respect that I've blown to bits. And I'm trying to convince myself of the same.

I feel I'm battling several fronts.

I'm trying to manage my triggers so H doesn't misinterpret why I'm upset.

I'm working to do everything I can to help H heal.

I'm working to prove myself as worthy of H's love.

I must also prove I'm worthy of H's trust.

As you've suggested, I need to make H feel like the most important person.

I need to protect H and our M.

I need to try to forgive myself, if possible.

And I must protect our children.

I'm trying to work the various angles and protect everyone I've harmed -- as I should. I'm working to be the best L4 (my Plan A), and help H heal, while constantly fighting the reminders of my stupidity, callousness, and selfishness.

I owe it to H to do the work. I must. It's hard though, as you know. Really hard to juggle the work along with all of the emotions while riding a roller coaster.

I am not looking for shred of sympathy on this journey. I brought this on.

I pray I can do it.

I'm hoping to 'nip this one in the bud' before the system crashes simply from the posts flooding in to address the above. (laker if you happen to read this, take note of my wording ..... )

I can understand how from your view, an outsider to our heart and mind, you may think integrity and respect are maintained.
This couldn't be farther from the truth.

Every ounce of integrity and respect I had for myself was abruptly swept away. I felt like I was a second rate spouse, not good enough, not smart enough to have noticed an A was going on sooner, not pretty enough, not funny enough, too fat, undesirable in every way, a fool to myself and a fool to everyone who knew, a fool to still love my WS, a fool to want to try, just a great big loser fool not worthy of love from anyone. I questioned my being a good mom, since how could I be if I was such a lousy stinkin' wife. I questioned everything about myself.

I'm better now, after months and months, but some of those feelings still creep back. In the eyes of some others, I still feel like a fool for staying. I feel like they are saying 'does she not have enough self respect for herself to be with someone who loves her'. If I didn't have the H that I have they would be here constantly and take over me.

I'm not blasting you L4, but I do hope this gives a bit more perspective of what hubby may be feeling, and why it takes so dang long to heal. We just want to protect our heart.

I don't feel blasted in any way, shape, or form, V. I feel humbled when you share with me what you're going through so that I might learn more.

It saddens me that you felt and still sometimes feel all of these doubts. I, in fact, respect you so much for trying to save you marriage -- for doing the hard work. I have no doubt that you are an amazing woman.

Thank you again for sharing.

I don't need H for financial support and have told him as much. It'd be tough if it came to that, but I'd be fine. I grew up without much money. I can live on generic soup and thrift store clothes if it came to that. I believe H knows I'd make due.

Something to think about. I do sometimes wonder if he's staying just for the kids and simply isn't admitting that. Though lately he's being much more open with me and I don't think he'd lie... But who knows. I'll keep this in mind.

I agree. I wanted to show how we're different, and I'm sure I worded it so I looked good. And you know what, 6YL? I bet I project this "better then" attitude to my H too.

A wedding ceremony between two homosexuals where marriage isn't legal. It's a marriage ceremony with all the finery yet without the blessing of the state.

L4,

I do think it would be a step forward if you could have the conversation about him Staying for the children. I think your H and I are similar in many ways, except I keep better control over what I say. The thing is, once I have a mission and have focused on it, then it would be nearly impossible for someone to pry their way into my heart. I don't want all your efforts to be wasted.


Anyway, I'm glad your still trying and good to see you a little happier.

Gabe

6yearsleft,

Is there anything that your xW could have done to make you want to stay? You mentioned you never loved her the same after her A. Could she have done anything to have changed your mind? To make you want to stay married to her?

6YL:

This line:
[quote] I think your H and I are similar in many ways, except I keep better control over what I say. [unquote]

Couldn't be further from the truth.

Now, we are only getting L4's POV on her BS. And we know how clouded that is.

However, your experience is WAY different. It seems to me that if L4 left, her kids would MISS HER. L4's H' has alot of work to do, and seems unwilling to do much at all.

Yes, that is the right of the BS to DO NOTHING, to make it the WS's job to fix this. But if the M was broken for many years, than yes, even the BS, HAS to do SOME WORK. Ain't no "Get out of Marriage Building" card just because your the BS.

Mark laid down the MB principles, and asked L4 to COMMITT to this MB effort. L4 is slowly getting there. It would be sad for her to get there and still have H sitting on GO. Then the destruction of this Marriage can be allocated between both parties. Not all marriages should be saved. This BS has a window of opportunity. It might be open for a LONG time. But if he makes NO EFFORTS to keep the window open, then that is his fault.

Just my 2 cents.

LG

L4,

That is a very good question. I'm not sure what it would have been but she conducted her affair and denied it, while I knew it was going on. She also was not a good mother. I'm very family focused so I think being an excellent mother would have been a possible turning point for me.

Hi LG,

The similarity I meant was emotional structure, in that I am mission focused and tend to close down when I can't get results. I bet almost all of the WW's are better mothers than mine was. My oldest hates his mother.

I would love to view myself as some sort of saint but the reality is that I wanted an intact family and I have always been careful with what I say. I conducted a 10 year plan that included a huge amount of deception toward the xWW to keep my family together. As I look back I think my children would have been better off if I had just forced it to a conclusion back then. I wish I could talk with L4's H because I think my experience and mistakes might help him.

Lately, I'm having some trouble with the attitude that the WS can't demand anything from the BS. I just don't see how that can be the case. I know that the WS has done some terrible things, and L4 even started the M with a major lie. however if both parties are going to agree to stay and make a good M then how can it be that the WS doesn't get to place any conditions on that.

I am basing my suggestions on this type of reasoning: Can a Marriage Be Saved by One Spouse?

FIL/SIL has a chapter or two dedicated to just this type of situation, where one spouse has a LB$ that is pretty far gone and has stopped wanting to do anything for the other. While L4's H probably has a lot of things he did over the years that caused L4's LB$ to become bankrupt, it is now he that has checked out for the most part.

Good days make headway and give hope to both but because both LB$ are teetering on falling into Withdrawal, even a good day or two seldom pushes things much beyond a state of Conflict. Since he is not here and L4 is, I am suggesting that L4 do the hard part of doing what is required to drive the relationship toward Intimacy. If his LB$ balance can be raised to a point that he begins to care routinely and is even willing to negotiate (a state of Conflict bordering on Intimacy instead of the other end at Conflict bordering on Withdrawal) then a good day or two will be able to push him into Intimacy and so he will on those days become willing to participate in recovery efforts and improving the relationship by beginning to show Care toward L4 and her ENs.

The real difficulty right now is that his LB$ is on the threshold of wanting something from L4 and not giving a crap about what happens or what she does. ANY Love Buster or failure to meet an EN smoothly and completely results in his entering Withdrawal, at which point he simply doesn't care at all what she does any more.

This was likely the point L4 was at when the affair began, she had simply given up on wanting anything from him. To make things worse, at a time when he began to consider caring once more by attending MC together, it was at that moment in time that he found out about the affair. He was in a low state of conflict and just dropped right into Withdrawal all in one instant, since an affair is not just a Love Buster, but the ultimate combination of all Love Busters rolled into one. It requires dishonesty, angry outbursts, DJs, annoying habits...the whole gamut of LBs in order to accomplish. So every BS ends up taking a huge hit on the LB$ balance.

My suggestions are to try to raise his LB$ balance to a point where he routinely cares, though might still be selfish (his Taker in charge) in a state of Conflict, which is an improvement from Withdrawal since in Withdrawal we don't even care if we get anything from the other person and both Giver AND Taker are unwilling to get involved. Once he is NEAR Intimacy, his Giver will start to work a little, giving back to L4 raising her LB$ balance enough to give her hope to continue and with a little luck, a really good round of EN meeting will push him into Intimacy and his Giver will take over for a while and he WILL begin to give without having to wonder and worry about what he will get in return.

A great marriage only exists where both partners are meeting each others ENs routinely and avoiding Love Busters to keep both LB$ balances about the level required to maintain Intimacy day after day. Even once achieved it requires work by both to remain at a level where both of you are in Intimacy, which is the goal. Once achieved though, remaining at those levels becomes easier because BOTH are willing to give to the other which is why POJA needs to be used so neither gives away the farm.

6YL, I don't have the numbers to compare Dr H's methods with other methods. I do know that traditional MC has a failure rate of between 85 and 86% according to most statistics that I have seen. Consider this compared to Dr H's statement that if BOTH H & W are willing to use his methods and do what he suggests to them that there should be a 100% success rate. Pretty strong statement...

But the qualifier there of course is that BOTH must do what he says to do and not just one or not on again off again in short attempts followed by giving up for long periods of time.

Back to work...

Mark

6YL,

Demanding never accomplishes the goal, since selfish demands are always Love Busters. This is why Dr H describes POJA the way he does and gives suggestions for how to negotiate to a POJA decision without making demands of each other.

The best you can accomplish is to coerce an action out of the other person for fear of some consequence they are not willing to pay. Never does this make them happy and seldom achieves what you seek. It never will fulfill POJA requirements of both being enthusiastic about the decision.

So the question remains, how do you make a person change? The answer is that you can't, you won't and you don't...Any changes have to be made by them. You can only change yourself, and once you do either they will make changes because they now want to or you will simply grow out of the relationship and move on.

Townsend and Cloud's book Boundaries is a good one for explaining this. Boundaries are never rules for others to live by. They define who we are, not others. Boundaries state what we will do when our boundary is violated but can't make another person do anything unless they want to do it.

My wife ended her affair and committed to making the marriage work because I gave her incentive to do so by changing ME and she made the decision to change what she was doing. I didn't make her change, I gave her a reason to want to change...

Mark

Like I said, I'm better, but these thoughts were in my mind shortly after D-Day. It's odd, they don't seem to consume you while you're on the mission of Plan A, continuing to snoop, put the pieces together of info that you've found, etc. They do flood in later.

As far as the hard work part, sometimes that seems like the easy part. Recognizing and changing my thinking and habitual reactions, was/is the hard part.
But I have had to learn, yes, here it comes .... patience, patience, and more patience.

And L4, I am far from amazing, I am just so very lucky. But thank you anyway and back at ya!

Hope your weekend is as lovely as the weather is here, 23 celcius, sunny, with a warm breeze.

edit to ask .... L4, are you and H spending the 15 hrs/week of UA?

Mark,

That analysis is a little disconcerting, since the 100% claim could just as easily be that the program selects marriages that can be fixed or are even easy to fix. Plus it seems that he makes no overall claim, while claiming that others fail 85%. (This type of stuff tweaks the lawyer in me.)

I suppose it is not that important since the recommended behaviors do all seem like good ideas.

Has Harley produced any guidance on when it is appropriate to give up or move on? I'm wondering because I clearly could have used some help in that decision, as could L4 and others I suppose.

There's been a lot in this thread to think about this weekend. I appreciate receving advice via this thread as well as my own. Thank you to all.

Six - would you be willing to stop by GQII and take a look at my thread?

Thank you, everyone. So much. I've scanned through your comments and have so much to share with y'all. I'm almost done with Love Busters. Add your input and insight and I'm feeling inspired. Inspired to share... Lots! (Uh-oh!)

Watching MLS soccer with the kids now that the baseball game is done. H is in Vegas so I have time to catch up on everything and tell you what's in my head -- after I put the kids to bed.

hey, how do you like the book?

we aren't finished it yet but I love it, lol, despite it being the one that seems to point out everything we do wrong.

planting season has descended upon us, so I'm sure H and I won't be doing much MB ed. for awhile. and that's a LB.