So I just got off the phone with W. A 30 minute call. It was nice to hear her tell me something of things that bother her...not about me but in General. She said thanks for helping out, and I said thanks for asking, I like to be asked and involved. She told me that she doesn't like to ask, and I said yea, because I might hold it over your head or something. She said no, that's not it, so I asked her why. I didn't think I'd get an answer, but she told me because she likes to think she can handle it all by herself. I told her that she could, it's just easier sometimes if you don't.

I guess maybe it's not important, but I really liked how that went.

dkd, I don't know if this applies or not. I've always been very close with my younger siblings. My mom or the kids would call me to pick them up when they needed help. For an evening, for a weekend, when we went on a trip, whatever. Other times I would call and ask if they could come over, for fun sometimes and other times when I needed help. They were a great help to me when my kids were babies and I needed an extra pair of hands. I never thought of it as her using me, or me using any of them. My sister even spent a few summers with us. I was glad for the time we shared. They're grown now, and we all have a lot of great memories.

My point is, whatever the reason your W asks for help with the kids, I encourage you to consider it anyways. Because that time is so short. And because your kids will feel wanted instead of a burden.

When I W were living together, it was the same way. We didn't have any boundary concerns. Now we do since everything changed. I completely agree about the kids not being a burden, and I want to insulate them from as much as I can.

What I want to avoid is being used as a babysitter, and being viewed as weak for doing whatever she wants me to do.


edit: Because of the phone call, I now feel a little mushy inside. I have a strong urge to try and talk with her some more. If she were around I'd hug her and probably compliment her some how. I hate how that feels, because I can't do any of those things, and if I tried to, I'd just look like a fool.

See, dkd, that's the part that is sad to me, that you ar making the choice to view time with your kids as babysitting, something that you will not volunteer to do, based on whether it benefits your wife or not. If your goal is to be the confident, attractive choice, isn't making FC LB$ deposits a great way to do that?

Are you familiar with the full-bore GQII Plan A? That involves you taking full responsibility of the house and kids, and if she wants to be separate, she gets an apartment. So that she knows coming back, that you are a full partner, fully capable of taking care of house and kids. That by reconciling with you, she gets a lot more than another plate to clear off the table, more clothes to wash, and another pair of feet on the coffee table. A full partner.


But even if you had no interest in your wife anymore, wouldn't your kids benefit from extra time with you? I know my siblings really benefitted from their time with us. They still share funny stories from our old times together.

dkd, I don't mean this as judgment. Your kids will be okay without you, too. Just wanted to share my 2 cents,, and I appreaciate that you heard me out. My dad stopped contacting us altogether for 11 years, and while we have a close, warm relationship today, there was alot of time we missed, even when he was an every-other-weekend dad. I also wonder if my mom would have remarried so quickly to a guy who was bad news if she didn't need help, any help, so desparately back then. Who knows.

Ears, I hear what your saying. Spending as much time with the kids is good, and your never babysitting your own kids. The one time where I objected to spending time with them was when I was expected to stay at the house after the kids went to bed, so she could do something with friends. I wasn't missing out on spending time with the kids.

I don't view the time as babysitting, just that I don't want to be used like a babysitter. Does that make sense? I think there will be a point where I can volunteer without any boundary concerns, but not right now. And I spend way more then every other weekend with them. I don't think three days go by where I don't see them atleast once.

I know Plan A, but we are pretty far beyond that. I never was a burden as far as domestic stuff goes, and she knows I can take care of the kids.

Ironically, much of our conversation at lunch, was how she wished biological Dad was involved more.

All that said, I'm going to think about trying to get more time with them, without using the times where W is busy. I don't want to fight over time with the kids (not really worried about that), and I don't want to do it to the point where I wear myself out.

My Father had 5 kids in his first marriage, and was basically out of their lives before any of them was 10 years old. I will never do that to my children.

Kind of an odd random thing, but I thought of something when I was picking up the kids last night. It has to do with looking someone in the eyes.

I've known for a long time, but whenever I'm talking about something emotional, and tend to look away. It's not so much an avoiding tactic as I get distracted easily and won't finish what I'm trying to say. The other thing is, that I don't smile that often. I smile when I laugh, at my kids, or when I'm in a very good mood, but not generally.

I realized that I rarely look W in the eyes. Maybe I did before, but I don't much now...and I think it is a confidence, thing, atleast inturpretted that way rather easily. But last night, I was looking her in the eye for some reason. And although we weren't talking about anything serious, I felt 'engaged' with her, if that makes sense. I wasn't staring, but I got the feeling that she felt a little more vulnerable, but not in a bad way....I think. And...I was feeling more confident. It was easier to say what was on my mind without worrying about how it came out...don't know why.

I also realized, that I always look at people in the eye at work. I'm rather confident there.

So I'm adding this to one of the things I'm going to work on.

Dkd...just read a portion of your thread. I think you could benefit from the same book I am reading...No More Mr. Nice Guy: A Proven Plan for Getting What You Want in Love, Sex and Life. It really does go nicely with the MB ways...I just choose to use more of the NMMNG method...while sprinkling in the MB things. Anyway, to each his own...and hopefully we both find the peace and happiness we crave...however that may be.

That does look like something worth reading. I'll have to look at that.


FYI, I started a thread in the Divorce forum because I had a question about joint custody. I thought it might not get noticed as well over here.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...flat&Number=2250714&#Post2250714

So my W emailed me this morning, telling me something that she was really worried about at work. She is a teacher, and she feared one of her students was suicidal and not very stable right now. She said it was something that I needed to know, but I can't figure out why.

I was going to wait until I got to work to respond, but she emailed me while I was driving in, saying that the problem didn't seem to be as bad as she thought it might be. I responded right away that I was glad, and to be careful still.

At lunch I emailed to ask if things were still ok, and she told me that he hadn't had her class yet. So I asked her to let me know after work, and I was here if she wanted to talk about it.

I'll be honest, it's been a little hard for me to not respond in typical guy fashion. I know it's something I can't fix, but then my tempation is to give advice, even though I know she knows how to handle that much better then me. I don't know what to say, and I don't know how to listen in such a way that helps.

Do you do the 'repeat back' thing to show that you heard? What kind of feedback would expect to know that you listened well?

It's hard to feel like you did the right thing, when you can't put a finger on what you did. It feels as if doing so little is a sign that it didn't matter to you.

Any suggestions on how to listen, and feel satisfied about it?

dkd, I think what you did sounded very thoughtful. Validated her concerns, reminded her she wasn't alone (she had you to talk to).

I guess, just doesn't seem enough. She has been thankful too.

So do I consider that this is still a concern until she tells me otherwise? By that I mean, ask about it every so often? Or should I wait till she brings it up again?

How about O&H? "This feels kinda new to me. I don't think I've been in this kind of situation before, where a child threatens suicide. How can I support you in this? Would it help if I checked back with you every so often, so you know you're not alone here?"

ummm, I can't exactly say it like that. I don't think my W would readily admit that she wants support on this, since she wants a D. She basically only told me as "information I needed to know", not as something she wanted my support on. I actually thought I was crossing the line by asking her to call me later, but I asked anyway.

But I think I could maybe O&H about this without implying that she asked for help or I have an obligation. "I want to be there for you, so can you let me know if checking back with you, to make sure you're ok, would help out at all?"

Sounds very thoughtful! Dkd, I'm glad that she's getting to see the new you.

I wanna said I've always been like that. I've always been concerned, but I don't think I would have handled it in a way that would help.

I don't see anything wrong in randomly asking about it again, considering the subject! A child needs a village, right?

You might also ask her how she handled it, and if she actually did anything, you can (if appropriate) praise her for being concerned and taking action. Never hurts to heap a little praise on her.

Ears, you changed your name! She did call me after work, and seemed happy to talk to me about it. I asked some questions, and wa careful to avoid giving any advice or being judgemental in anyway. For that, not sure that I told her she handled it well, but it would be much worse if came across as evaluating her.

I didn't ask her what kind of support she wanted from me, it just didn't come up, and I figured that when I do ask again, she'd either talk or tell me it's not an issue anymore. That's what she usually does.

Also in the phone conversation, she had mentioned that she was going for a friend's birthday on Friday night. It came up because DS4 might have had a makeup soccer game that night, and she was feeling conflicted about skipping it, and for paying for a babysitter. I'm the coach, so I was able to reschedule the game, and I asked if I could have the kids on Friday night. That worked out well, as she was appreciative and let me know that she didn't ask me because she didn't want to treat me as a babysitter, and I told her I appreciated that, but I wanted to see my kids and give her a chance to go the birthday dinner.

Wednesday is also my usual night with the kids, so I went to the house to pick them up after work. It's real minor, but she told me I looked handsome and that I was wearing one of her favorite shirts. That was great, I haven't heard anything like that in months! She didn't back off of the compliment either, as if she didn't want to lead me on, not that I was milking it or anything. Still, I felt a little high the rest of the night because of that.

I'm not nieve so as to think that this meant much of anything, but it was nice, and some inspiration to keep working on MB principles.

ps: She also told me what her 2nd favorite shirt is, and you better believe I'll be wearing that next Wednesday.

I think overall, dkd, that your wife is lucky that you are trying to reach out and communicate to her. I have tried to talk with my husband and that's been near to impossible to do without fighting--though it wasn't always that way. We do ok over the phone (while he was away). I can write things down to him. (email, letter). I was honest with him about that fact that this is the easiest way for me to communicate. I didn't insist he respond in kind but I was open/honest about telling him it was the only way I was comfortable. His response had been that he wasn't going to respond to any more emails. So we continued either not talking or trying to talk and fighting. I slipped more soundly into withdrawal.

I again, being O&H told him that this is the state where I was, what I was trying to do to get out of that state, and some other things--that was the subject of my last email to him. As usual, he did not acknowledge receipt of the email. We've not discussed it. And in the 4 days since I've sent it, I've not talked to him about anything other than day-to-day necessary stuff. I have stood up to him when he LBs me with AOs and DJs. And I've either slept on the couch or as far over to my side of the bed as I can get.

The difference this time around is that I don't feel guilty about it. I feel that I've tried. So I guess I'm in really dangerous territory now.

So all in all, if I were your wife, I would consider myself lucky that I had a husband who was willing to fight for the marriage.

I have no idea whether she feels lucky or not. I really don't know how she feels. In some regards, she may appreciate that I'm not making life difficult for her, and I certainly could. On the other hand, I'm not letting her decision to divorce very easy for her. I wouldn't be surprised if a part of her wishes that I was clearly a jerk, and their was absolutely no doubt in her mind, or that of family and friends, that her decision was the correct one.

I could feel lucky that my W isn't my life hell either. She could avoid contact and try and limit my time with the kids if she wanted to, or something like that. But she's not. Then again, it's hard to feel lucky when you're W is divorcing you.

I don't think I'll figure it out, so I just try and take what comes and appreciate what I have.

I know it doesn't look like it right now, but perhaps it's somewhat lucky that your husband clearly isn't communicating well. It allows you to draw the line you need to with little doubt, and no one could really blame you for it. Perhaps it is just best to separate whether it's good or bad, and just go with what you know, if that makes sense. I know it's not what you want though, but it could be even less clear.

Well, I think I've/we've reached a point where there's a new challenge. I don't think we've had any argument in several months, and it feels like LBs are pretty darn low. We are both very courteous and polite to each other, almost to the point where it's annoying, somewhat hard to believe sometimes.

It seems like we are progressing, but I don't know if we are just spinning our wheels. I don't know what she's feeling. If I ask her how she feels, she'll withdraw to wherever she thinks it's safe, or atleast that's my concern. And I am ok with not knowing, for now. On the other hand, I want some tension. I don't mean arguing or anything, but a part of me says that we can't stay where we are. If we don't move forward, we are going to drift backwards. I want to provide more ENs for her, but I don't think she'll be comfortable with that. I want to ask her to meet my ENs, but I don't have any leg to stand on so to speak. She can always fall back on wanting a divorce.

I feel like she needs to decide on having a relationship with me on her own, but I also feel like I should be O&H about what I want and put a little pressure on her. Not for the sake of manipulation, but because it's not fair for her to think she she has time and I'll always be waiting for her, then find out that I've moved on. I'd be dishonest to say that the single life is becoming more appealing to me. I don't have any doubt that I could be happy on my own. Still, I don't want to settle for anything but the best life for me and my family.

Perhaps I just need to turn things up a little, and give her a chance to respond. I can attempt to give her a hug more often, and see how she reacts. I can talk about what's going on with me in more detail, and ask her more questions. I dunno.