I decided to post in GQII as it seems to get more traffic, and I am desperate for advice/input.

Here is the link to my most recent post: Previous Post

Well, here is the most recent update. The NC with her did not last, and we have been talking for the last week or so. It was my fault that it did not work, but I felt like it was more of a vacation for her than an opportunity for her to think things over. Long story short, she still says that she doesn't want to be with me but cannot give me a legitimate answer as to why. She says she sees the changes that Ive made, but doesn't want to give herself a chance to love me. As you can imagine, this is VERY frustrating, as she wont even give us the chance to recover. She has been up and down/back and forth for almost 2 months now, and I began to think that she was in contact with the OM again. I called her to ask her for her cell account information, and she refused stating that we were not together, and that it was her account. Later that day when I tried explaining to her that I feel like I deserve to know whats happening, she hung up on me. Well, I went over to where she was staying and told her to bring her laptop out to the front porch so that I could see her email and cell calls. She refused naturally, and threatened me with calling the police. When she pulled out her phone, I grabbed it from her and she tried taking it back. In taking it back, she managed to hit me with a left hook, which is NOT like her. It didn't hurt really, but surprised me. Afterword, she ran in the house. I just stood outside and was about to call her when she came back outside.

We talked for a couple of hours, and some pretty mean things were said (mostly by her). I could tell that she was just trying to get me to leave, as this is a tactic that she uses when she wants me to stop bringing up facts. My point essentially during the conversation was that I was tired of her walking over me and telling me how things were going to go. I admitted to my faults in the marriage and took ownership of the fact that I pushed her away. I even admitted that leaving me was probably the only way she could have gotten through to me. However, I said that I DID NOT deserve the agony of her affair, and for us to stay apart this long was hurting more than helping. She looked for every excuse under the sun as to why she didn't want to try again, but I was able to shoot all of them down with logical responses.

In the end, she agreed to marriage counseling this Friday, and that she would not submit the divorce papers. We have talked a couple of times since then over the phone, but not for very long, and never about our relationship. When we do talk, I can tell that most of the time she wants to get me off the phone if even the slightest hint of relationship talk comes up.

Now, for my questions:

1. I still never got a chance to see her cell/email records. Is this something that I should pursue right now, or should I wait for the MC session to bring it up again?

2. Is the way she is acting normal? The ups, downs and Indecisions? She said that she was SO close to coming back in February, but decided not too because I pressured her for sex. I apologized for that, but told her that I was attempting to explain how important sex is to men, and that it isnt all physical. Is this just an excuse shes using for changing her mind?

3. Should I continue to act the way I have? I have been very open and honest with her, and very understanding. I have admitted to my flaws and my weaknesses that hurt our marriage, and I have not been judgmental of her affair. However, I have also attempted the "No contact" with her several times, and each time one of us breaks it. This last time it was me, and the two times before it was her. My attitude now is that Im tired of being walked on, and that we have done things her way for the past 7 months, which have resulted in no one being happy.

I may have more questions, but those are all I can think of right now. If anyone has any questions or advice to share please feel free to ask/tell. I am willing to do anything to save my family, but I dont know what the right thing is. Ive found that it is very difficult for me to leave her alone, as I have no idea what she is doing with that time and because of the affair I always assume the worst. I told her during our argument over the weekend that its not that I dont want to give up on our family, its that I CANNOT give up. Something inside me will not let me.

Thank you all in advance for any help/advice you may be able to offer.

- Broken

Broken sorry you are here.

I have concerns of your actions to your WS. You cannot force the issues that you have been doing. It is way over the line.

If your WS wants to reconcile then you can request transparency.

In answer to your questions:

1... no no no, you can be on the verge of being arrested by pursuing this.

2. Yes-- she is a wayward. She is in a fog. It is not the wife that you knew. She is talking in fog babble. You cannot reason with her while she is in this state of mind.

3. NC means that NO CONTACT. If you cannot do a Plan A because of your emotions or your need to pursue, push, plead or apologize, you need to go dark, really dark. No conversations with WW unless there is a medical emergency with son. Why are you picking up the phone about haircuts for your son?

I know you are hurting, I know you are in pain but you are going through an emotional battlefield and still have your own agenda.
Work on yourself, work on your R with your son. Go see an IC about anger issues. Until you get yourself in a good place you need to do a Plan B.

Have you read "surviving an A", it will go into great detail about waywards.

Read articles here, read other posters. Stop reacting and make a reasonable plan for yourself and short term goals.

Broken,

You may THINK the above quote is a good quality to have for a BH in your situation, but in REALITY this attitude will scr3w you over and over in trying to reconcile with a WW.

It just SCREAMS to your WW that I will remain "married at all costs", which she will interpret to mean that she can continue to treat you like DIRT and you won't do squat about it. A "married at all costs" attitude will condemn you to never ending DOORMAT status.

Unless you develop the attitude that you are willing to loose your WW rather than put up with more of her shi!t ... you will remain in marital limbo hell.

I went back and read all three of your threads back to early January and you need to get your head around the concept that things aren't likely to turn out the way you want them.

Recovery is VERY tough under the best of circumstances, and you don't have EITHER a solid marital foundation or a committed or remorseful WW to work with. PLUS ... you've had your own issues with dealing with REALITY that had to negatively effect the state of your M.

My best advice would be to use her FOG against her to negotiate the best custody arrangement and property settlement agreement possible and move on with your life while your still young enough to REALLY start over.

Thank you for your reply and your advice. I'm left with a question though, which is; should I continue with the plan for the MC session this Friday, or initiate NC?

I'm still not sure what to do from here, but I want to do whatever it takes to get my family back. I can do the NC and I have been working on goals (both short and long term) for myself. I will admit that my biggest weakness is impatience. It’s been 7 months now, and even though she says she is not in contact with the OM I have yet to see any proof. In February, we were so close to getting back together that I could almost "taste" it. Then, she pulled back for reasons that don't make much sense to me. She says that I pressured her over the sex issue (as I explained in my previous post), and that she didn't like the way I treated out son when he was misbehaving. All I did was take him to the side and talk to him....that's it. One day she'll say that I don't discipline him enough, and the next she'll say I do too much. I'm in a loose/loose situation here where I can do nothing right, and I think that's what’s so frustrating. It feels like I’ve had to start all over again. She was almost out of the fog, and then she slipped and fell right back in. If she is not in contact with the OM, then I’m really confused.

So as before, here are a few more questions that I have. If anyone has the answers I would be very grateful.

1. She and I are currently separated and she has admitted that she doesn’t want to "let me in" so I am really not able to do an affective Plan A. However, she says she sees my changes but thinks I will go back to the way I was. Basically, she is giving every excuse she can not to reconcile. Is a Plan B in order, or some sort of modified Plan B? I think it’s hard for me because a Plan B feels like I’m giving up, and like I’m giving her a vacation.

2. Should I cancel the MC session on Friday, and initiate a Plan B instead? Or, is there something else I should do. I know that if her head isn’t in the right place, then MC is pointless. Should I just go by myself? My wife already agreed, but I have a feeling that she is hoping to use it as a tool to push me away.

3. During the other NCs that I’ve attempted, I notice that I get VERY lonely on weeks that I don’t have my son. I’ve been told that it’s NOT ok to see other women until after the divorce. Does anyone have any advice for how to beat this? I have tried to spend time with friends, but that’s like putting a Band-Aid on a bullet wound. I miss the constant companionship of my wife and family, and I don’t know how to satiate that want.

4. I understand my impatience, and am on Zoloft to assist with anxiety/depression. However, I’m still not sure how to keep myself from wanting to talk to her WITHOUT reminding myself of all the terrible things she’s done. I don’t want to hate her. Every time I do it eats me alive inside. Is there any advice on how to make NC easier with her?

Thank you again for any advice you may have. I’m just so lost right now, and I get conflicting advice every day. I hear "Stand up for yourself, you’re being walked on", but then I hear "You have to show her that you have changed and that you are not selfish". That’s just one example, but my point is that I just don’t know what to do. I am willing to do ANYTHING, but I don’t know what the RIGHT thing to do it. I just want my family back. I want to make my wife happy, and give my son the home/family he deserves.

This is the reality that I have not been able to accept yet. Ive had several people tell me this, and its just not something that Im ready for. Granted, Im aware that I dont have a choice in the matter, but it hurts REALLY bad whenever I see/hear someone say it because I think deep down I know its true. There have been times recently when Ive really wanted to file, but then I think "I didnt want this to begin with, let her file if she wants it so bad."

Im not sure what to do. Everything else in life is so cut and dry relative to this, and Im just lost in this situation.

You're inexperienced and confused ... we all get that and understand it.

Think of it this way ... assume that you had never met your WW ... and that you were now a single father thinking of getting married ... if you were to make a list of the qualities of that perfect W for you ... what would it look like?

NOW ... BE HONEST ... how many of these qualities does your WW ... as you now know her to be ... possess?

General Advice: The older I get, the more I value the experience of those who have travelled a similar path before me.

Specific Question: What does YOUR FATHER think you should do?

My father thinks I should let her go, but he hasn't actually said "Divorce her". Verbatim hes actually said "I think that the best thing for everyone is for you to let her go". Im not sure if he means for good, or just forget about her for now.

Having said that though, I should mention that my father and mother split up 3 times throughout my childhood because he was abusive. In the end, they worked it out and have been happy ever since.

I agree with listening to others experience, but as I said before I am getting so much conflicted advice, that I just dont know which to follow. I understand that our history is a little off, but I know we can make one another happy if she just tries. She doesnt want to, and thats where Im confused. Actually Im confused about the whole damn situation, but why she wont even let herself love me is so frustrating. I've read other threads, and actually have a close friend who went through a very similar situation. Some folks say its hopeless, while others say its definitely possible to save our marriage, even with her in this fog. All of this just adds to the confusion, but I know that my natural instinct to continue to pursue is a futile effort as well. I think that the right thing to do is NC, but I don't know if I should attempt to go through with the marriage counseling session and see where that leads, or just initiate NC.

Sorry if it seems like I'm not taking advice, as I know that can be very frustrating. Please remember though that when I get new advice every day, its hard to stick to a plan, or even know whats right. The only thing that I KNOW is that I want to save my marriage. Other than that, I don't know anything for certain.

YES! Your wife is actively wayward. MC is useless with an active wayward.



You obviously do not understand PlanA or PlanB! Your attempts to not be in contact with your WW are not having any effect on WW and are actually counter-productive.



Yes, call the coaching center and set up an appointment for just YOU!
Here is the link: Coaching Center here at Marriage Builders



Again, MC is a bad idea! She will chew you up and spit you out, making everything YOUR fault, and she will probably have the MC agreeing with her by the time she's done.

If your father is a smart man ... and only you can answer that for us ... then I'll make the assumption that he's learned a lot from his past mistakes. Also, he probably knows you better than anyone ... including yourself ... so I'd probably think long and hard about rejecting his advice.

In effect, you are in a BS fog yourself ... and only remembering the parts of your WW that support a good M going forward ... to be honest with yourself ... you also need to remember all of the pain and hurt she has caused.

Broken,

You have prior military training - apply the tactical concepts to this situation. If you act prematurely due to impatience you could blow all chances of success you have. WW's comment that she didn't like Plan B because using an IM was inconvenient was a sign of progress as reality was starting to set in. If you end up divorced, her life is going to be a lot more inconvenient and not just for a week. You broke contact but you can still regroup. Let her feel the consequences of her actions. Stop trying to explain things to a delusional person. All you're going to do is get more worked up and frustrated. She's a woman so she's going to change her mind every day anyway. On top of that she's a fogged out wayward so her flip flopping with be every 15 minutes.

Scrap the counseling and go back to Plan B. Be tactical in your approach and draw her out. When you are feeling lonely go for a run or work out, resume an old hobby or pick a new one, go to a movie, take a karate class, a cooking class...anything to occupy your time. If there is the added benefit of personal improvement and enjoyment, even better.

You still have tactical advantages so be patient. I know it is easier said than done but remember what is at stake. Plan B can take months and some even go years. If WW never comes around then it's up to you to decide when enough is enough. But you do need to lose the marriage at all cost attitude or you'll be setting yourself up for a life of repeated heart ache and abuse. Work on being a better YOU. If WW is too stubborn or blind to see the improvement, someone else will.

I wouldn't. You already know she is still in contact. If it were me, I would just tell her that until she shares this info willingly, you will assume she is still in contact. Then shut up about it and go about whatever plan you will execute if she keeps contact with OM.


Yes - pretty normal for a cake-eating fence sitter.


No, probably not.

What part of her behavior confuses you? It is completely consistent with a person who wants to see where her A goes without burning her bridges with you?

Ok, so it seems like the consensus is that regardless of where it leads me, I should initiate NC. I agree that it seems she is still on contact with the OM, but its hard to think that this person that was my wife could do the things she has. I always want to think the best when it comes to her.

So now for my NEXT question (yes, another). How should I initiate NC? In person, hand written letter, email phone call? What tone should be taken in the letter. Should I just say what I mean, which is essentially

"I want nothing less than complete transparency and honesty. I cannot be your friend after being your husband, and have no desire to. Until you are ready to do these things I feel that we should not contact one another unless it is an emergency regarding our son. If the time does not come that you can commit to reconciliation COMPLETELY, then we will discuss the option of divorce."

Should I tone that down, or just say whats on my mind? Granted, thats abbreviated, but that is essentially how I feel. Should I be a bit softer in describing my stipulations?

Well, I basically said what I put in the post above. I was calm and neutral and even put it in a little softer terms. The end result is that she refused my request, and said she is filing for divorce this week. I cant say I thought anything other than that would come from this, but I'm accepting of it. Its a shame really, but I have no choice in the matter and realize that I never did.

Thank you all for your help and understanding, but it appears as though I messed everything up. I may not post for a while, as I'm kind of numb right now and don't really have anything to say.

Thank you all again

- Broken

Believe nothing of what a WS says.

It's what she actually DOES that counts.

Her "filing for divorce" stance could have been an attempt to bully you into accepting HER terms by issuing that threat.

Stick to your plan.

As of now my only plan is to not have any contact with her, and to continue to work on myself. I just stopped smoking this week (picked a good week huh?), and have started to increase my workouts. I also would like to get into cycling again, but I have to wait a few weeks for that.

I have a feeling that she will file the papers, and that the divorce will go through. If I get served Im just going to sign them and move on with my life. I cant fight this uphill battle all by myself any longer. I wanted our marriage to work, but I cannot make her want to be with me and Im exhausted from trying to make it happen.

At the very least, I have a direction for myself now. Any thought or hope of reconciliation is gone, and I find myself at ease with that.

My friend (female) is telling me that there is no chance that my wife will ever come back. That once shes made up her mind there is NOTHING I can do to get her back. That there will never be a day when she looks back and says "What did I do?". Is there any truth to this or is there still hope? I just dont see why my wife would drag this out for 7 months and still not divorce me. She has had the papers in hand for 5 months now, and has had every opportunity to file but hasn't. She said "Do you know how close I was to coming back to you in February?".

Im still not in contact with her and Im actually expecting her to file the papers soon, but thats not what I want. I want her back. Is the NC the right thing to do.

Im sorry if this sounds pathetic, but I feel so helpless. My family has been taken from me by this new person who looks and sounds just like my wife. I just dont know what to do. If I do get served, do I hold out, or is that a sure sign that its over?

Please, any help, support or advice is greatly appreciated. I just feel like my whole world is crumbling down around me and I dont know why. I dont know why she wont give herself a chance to love me.

Broken,

Because you won't face REALITY ... and with your history of personal issues ... my best advice is for you to seek PROFESSIONAL help for YOURSELF.

I'm afraid that your issues are more than the members of this forum are qualified to handle.

Broken,


:twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour:

Did I get your attention?

Post in progress...

Has your friend been affected by adultery? WW's actions are typical wayward babble. If she wants to file, she will file but you are playing into the drama of "what if" and letting people deflate your resolve in .24 seconds. STOP IT! I have no idea if your friend is right and your WW is one of those who is too damaged to try R or simply doesn't care.

I know you feel hopeless but you need to get a grip of yourself. You need to find the strength to be strong for yourself and your son. I could blow sunshine up your rear but that's not going to help you. I don't have a crystal ball...no one does. The only choice you have is to work on yourself and build a better life for yourself and your child even if that is without WW.

So one more :twobyfour:

and a I hope you find YOUR strength.