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I think that we all could eliminate much of our spending if we really have the need. I’m sure that some live in a situation that they just couldn’t make it with one income. They would have to downsize to a much smaller house or rent. One car would have to do. No eating out. No real entertainment budget. Kids would be withdrawn form hobbies and sports that cost money.

If the family in question made very little, there is government assistance.



Victory Gardens anyone? This is one of my hobbies. I can feed the family most of the summer and put away a lot for the winter. And I have very little sunlit yard for my garden. I do it in raised beds, high intensity gardening. It does save me some money and it really balances me to have my hands in the soil.


Last edited by Esox; 04/22/09 02:00 PM.

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Originally Posted by rprynne
I think women have always tended to be generalists and men tended to be specialists. I could list several possiblities as to why this has happened. But most of them probably have a general theme that historically, men have left their women (be it to go to war, go explore, go find their fortune or go find someone else), which has forced theme to develop capabilities outside whatever is defined as their traditional role at the time.

I think women being generalists has been amplified even more since WWII, when woman had to go to work outside the home. Amplified more during various feminists movements, more again during the 80's as people pushed for more and more wealth, still more and more in the last 20 years as it becomes increasingly difficult for a single income household to stay above the poverty level. In the last 60 years, most moms have been raising their daughters to be generalists.

Men have not followed suit. There are probably a couple of reasons for this, (some maybe just don't want to, others might be lazy), but I suspect the biggest reason why they have not followed suit is that it puts them at a competitive disadvantage. A man who tells his boss he's going to work a little less so he can spend more time with his family is going to get passed over. A "sensitive" man is going to have a harder time in combat.

In interpersonal reltionships, I think this dynamic is difficult. If their are 6 things, or roles, or activities a husband and wife need to accomplish, the generalist (usually wife) says, I think we should both do each of the 6 things at a 50/50 split. The specialist (usually husband) says I think you should do 3 of them and I should do the other 3. To me this is the classic cleaning the house arguement - husband says I work, you keep the house clean - wife says I work too, you should help me keep it clean. Husband says yes, but you don't work as hard or as much as I do. On and on it goes.

I think this creates a negative perception of their spouse in both parties. Both parties devalue what the other brings to the table. The wife may eventually view the husband as obsolete. She doesn't need what he does because she can do it herself. She devalues him and ultimately loses respect for him. The husband may eventually view the wife has inadequate. He doesn't care if she works, since that is his role, she needs to do a better job keeping the house clean. He devalues her and ultimately loses respect for her.

IMHO, marriages that prosper solve this in one of two ways. Either the generalists becomes a specialist or the specilist becomes a generalist. The SAHM might be an example of a generalist becoming a specialist, and these "transitions" seem to happen without a lot of turmoil. Although, I could be missing something.

However, When the specialist tries to become a generalist, things don't seem to go as smoothly. I suppose it's just the nature of the transition. Adding skills is generally harder than dropping them.

I think this is were feminization and emasculation come into play. If the man is trying to become a generlist, it will appear that he is being "feminized". However, as someone else posted, I'm not sure if this is the issue. I think the issue is the confusion around this transition. I think this is where the man is at risk of being emasculated. He is confused about what is he supposed to pick up and what is he supposed to drop. Initially, he tries to follow his wife's lead. But he usually fails. Tries again and fails, tries again, etc. These successive rounds of trying and failing emasculate him. He loses any direction for himself.

I think men fail at this for a couple of reasons. Certainly some are just incapable of it. Still others just won't do it. But I think the average Joe fails because its a constantly moving target. I think women suffer a great deal of stress about being generalists. At times they are in conflict about it. I think this conflict and stress produces a lack of consistency in what they want from their husbands. I also think this lack of consistency is why so much is written about why men need to better understand women, as it changes so much. Most women I know completely deny this lack of consistency exists, but I've observed it too often to agree with that.

Just my opinions.

I think i was too busy being angry to notice this post, this is totally awesome and right on IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Esox
(Clever, Sweet Potato. Maybe you'll be the first female chess grandmaster since Newton's wife invented calculus.)

Do you know about Susan Polgar?

doh2

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By the way, every time I see the title of this thread, I think it says The Fertilization of Men

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Originally Posted by JL
I had never had a player beg me NOT to start her, until I coached girls teams.

I had this happen once with a girl once too. That’s funny.

Originally Posted by JL
Chrisner what is your experience in these things?


Okay a few observations:

When I walk into a gym 10-minutes before practice starts with boys they are all around the baskets playing 1 on 1, or 3 on 3 or just shooting free throws or 3-pointers. If there is a shooting machine it will be out around a basket and a group would be firing shots away.

When I walk into a gym 10-minutes before practice starts with girls they are all sitting in specific groups far from the court slooooooooowly putting on their shoes and talking. They will do this until 20-seconds before practice start time. But that’s okay, because if they get their talking and socializing done before practice starts they don’t talk during the warm-up drills.

This is one of the many reasons why some long term boy coaches declare they could never coach girls. Yet I know several very successful girls basketball coaches who have done very well with boy’s teams. Our high school football coach has done an amazing job turning around the program and his background was girl’s basketball.

With a boy all that was necessary was to tell him what to do. He did not need to know why. Didn’t even seem to care. Girls typically need to know why you want them to do something. Girls want a cost/benefit breakdown. “Okay if that happens you need to do this because………” However I clearly found this type of instruction does work very well with boys too.

Early on, girls will follow a play long past the point of destruction where the only possible final outcome will be a turnover. Everything is literal and unalterable. “But Coach, you said to…..”

Early on, boys will abandon a play before it ever had a chance to start. Everything is basic guidelines and very flexible. "But Coach, I could see early on that I could get to the hole.”

This is why I don’t run any pattern plays. I prefer to teach basketball not basketball plays. Plays ultimately fail and the players have to know what to do when it happens.

I have a continuous team lay-up drill that runs typically for 2-minutes. A perfect score is around 24. Although the drill has several basketball skills the most important lesson of the drill is to teach John Wooden’s mantra, “Be quick but do not rush.”

My freshman and sophomore boys last year would always ultimately rush. The best score they had was 20. My varsity girls finally had a perfect score of 24 going into the last 3-weeks of the season.

Boys are tough on each other. They get right in each other’s faces and expect a lot from their team mates. If my girl’s varsity point guard got on another girl the way my boy’s point did last year there would have been tears and team meetings and parent emails and AD meetings.

Boy (loud, in front of everyone): “Come on man! We’ve been doing this drill for 3-months now. Wake up and get it! No wonder you never start!”

Girl (loud, in front of everyone): “It’s okay Liz! You’ll get it next time! *Clap Clap Clap*
Same Girl (quietly to her friend in line): OMG! We’ve been doing this drill for 3-months now. When will she wake up and get it! No wonder she never starts!”

Liz’s friend when she gets back in line (whispering) “You should have heard what she said about you! OMG!”

What a hoot!

Thanks JL! It’s an interesting topic to me.


P.S. JL. Have you seen the documentary "Heart of the Game". It follows a Washington State girl's basketball team and their coach for 7-years. It's great.



Last edited by chrisner; 04/22/09 02:58 PM.

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Cinder:

It seems like old Fred missed Susan.

I for one am glad to know that there are women Gandmasters now.

Last edited by Esox; 04/22/09 02:54 PM.

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more about those presumed non-existing female Grand Masters

Some Grand Masters may not be listed on the list referred to because they are now inactive.

There is only one family to produce two Grand Masters. That is the Polgar family. Both of their Grand Masters, Susan and Judith (their Anglicized names) are female. There have not been brothers who were both Grand Masters.

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TJ/

I love my MAN. He loves his WOMAN. We love our God. We make pretty babies and even prettier grandbabies. He is blue, I am pink. He is a rock and I am a flower. He is a provider and so am I. He keeps me warm, I warm him up. I love my MAN. He loves his WOMAN.

/TJ

I know. I'm weird. wink


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Originally Posted by cinderella
Originally Posted by Esox
(Clever, Sweet Potato. Maybe you'll be the first female chess grandmaster since Newton's wife invented calculus.)

Do you know about Susan Polgar?

doh2

I believe 2 of the 3 Polgar sistes are Grandmasters. However, I do find it a little odd that their father Lazlo, who believed genius can be taught, selected a wife who was agreeable to his "experiment", then after having children set about conducting his experiment to create chess genius'.


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Originally Posted by cinders
By the way, every time I see the title of this thread, I think it says The Fertilization of Men


I kept reading it as the Fermentation of Men.

Last edited by chrisner; 04/22/09 04:21 PM.

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Quote
It's easy to say when the main bread winner makes 100G.

Is it easy to say when you DON'T make 100G??? Because we don't, and I still stand by my statement that there is a huge difference between NEEDS and WANTS.

Here in America many people do not truly know what a NEED is.


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Originally Posted by chrisner
Originally Posted by cinders
By the way, every time I see the title of this thread, I think it says The Fertilization of Men


I kept reading it as the Fermentation of Men.

rotflmao Me, too!!!

It's 5:00 somewhere, my friend.

Interesting (and hilarious) post of yours above, by the way. I'd bet the farm that if you had been DD14's coach - she'd still be in the game.

Those girls are lucky to have you.

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Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I think i was too busy being angry

You got angry because people expressed a different opinion than yours? WOW...That must be a tough way to live...

Mrs. W


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Originally Posted by MarriedForever
Quote
It's easy to say when the main bread winner makes 100G.

Is it easy to say when you DON'T make 100G??? Because we don't, and I still stand by my statement that there is a huge difference between NEEDS and WANTS.

Here in America many people do not truly know what a NEED is.
I truly believe that all American children should be required to take an entire semester on the Depression. For just that purpose - to learn what a NEED really is. I still feel guilty throwing away holey socks.

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Originally Posted by MrsWondering
Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I think i was too busy being angry

You got angry because people expressed a different opinion than yours? WOW...That must be a tough way to live...

Mrs. W

I was not or am not angry at any of the people, just the subject itself angers me.

PS i also have learned a lot by hearing different opinions so it does not bother me if others are different than mine.

Last edited by Still_Crazy; 04/22/09 06:11 PM. Reason: added PS
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Originally Posted by Just Learning
Ouch's initial thoughts suggest a bigger examination than just "feminization" of males, it is losing them from the productive part of society, due to our own policies, our blindness to data, Political correctness, and failure to seek a true balance in things. It means they won't be good good husbands.

Agreed.

Quote
Please keep talking, but I would really like to know what people think a good man is, and what traits of men should be encouraged, we already know what one have been discouraged.

To me a good man will do right by others regardless of the consequences to himself and his word is his bond. Part of being a good father is treating their mother with care and respect. I can not see the two as independent. Encourage others (especially your children) to succel and expect the same of yourself. Succel = Succeed + Excel. A person can succeed but still be mediocre. Be dependable. If I can't depend on my own H or father who can I depend on? Be patient if I don't understand something and ask. If I did, I wouldn't be asking.

There's more but I don't want to write a book. LOL



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We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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Originally Posted by chrisner
Boys are tough on each other. They get right in each other’s faces and expect a lot from their team mates. If my girl’s varsity point guard got on another girl the way my boy’s point did last year there would have been tears and team meetings and parent emails and AD meetings.

Sad but true. Although some parents (sorry but I think it's mostly the dads blush) need to calm down too. Some men I've seen are about to go into cardiac arrest over little league games. I'm all for winning but there are some parents that are scary.

Quote
Girl (loud, in front of everyone): “It’s okay Liz! You’ll get it next time! *Clap Clap Clap*
Same Girl (quietly to her friend in line): OMG! We’ve been doing this drill for 3-months now. When will she wake up and get it! No wonder she never starts!”

Liz’s friend when she gets back in line (whispering) “You should have heard what she said about you! OMG
!”

rotflmao




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Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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B_R,

You said something that really has me laughing. AS I mentioned before, I played sports my kids played even more sports, but by FAR the worst sport was baseball, especially little league level ball. Dear Lord in Heaven, the parents were absolutely LOONEY. smile You would have thought the pro-scouts were their scouting little "johnny" and YUP the Dads were off the wall.

I don't know why this is true. The most fun sport was actually cross country followed by track. Soccer was good, basketball and football the most intense, but at least in football the kids could get their frustrations out and the parents were farther away.

Chrisner, I know what you mean about the plays thing. I once asked my daughter (who played post although too short 6') what she would do if her defender had a massive coronary at mid court. Would she still run the play or would she notice no one was guarding her and actually use her brain and make the layup? She looked at like "HuH? What a silly question?" So I asked her did she know why she ran plays. She said to score. I said sort of right. You run plays to get open and good shots, when you get them (think coronary at midcourt) you are supposed to take them.

I never taught plays either, just simple things like floor balance, screens, moving without the ball. When I coached young kids I had two rules which I told the kids in front of their parents. I said rule #1 If you have an open shot (defined as something you have made in practice) and you don't take it, I will bench you. #2 If there is an open player closer to the basket and you don't pass to them, I will bench you. It worked great. Our first game I think my little guys hit the backboard about 20% of the time. smile The Dad's were mortified and so where the Mom's, I could hear behind me "H you are going to take Johnny out and work with his shooting, this is embarrassing." We won the league this year, and I didn't really have to work too much on shooting. cool

Oddly, the Mom's and Dad's didn't react quite the same way with the girls. The hardest thing was to get them to use their bodies for boxing out and setting screens.

Which leads to my final statement about the differences between boys and girls. In sports boys don't seem to have any trouble with physical contact or body to body contact, the girls do. Yet, in society men NEVER touch on another other than you shake hands and are extremely aware of where people are so that they don't bump into them. Women seem to be in constant contact in society, touching, hugging, kissing, rubbing and they seem oblvious of their surrounding and bump into people far more frequently.

Just another mystery I'll never figure out. But it is true you coach them far differently, and therefore our system should be teaching them far differently.

Just thoughts,

JL

Last edited by Just Learning; 04/22/09 07:07 PM.
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Black_Raven,

I like your list of traits for a man. It is short and sweet.

I noticed you did not put in he had be good with a vacuum, nor "in touch" with his feelings and such.

A loving, caring, dependable man, who takes care of his kids.
I could live with that as the definition of a good man.

JL

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Originally Posted by Just Learning
I noticed you did not put in he had be good with a vacuum, nor "in touch" with his feelings and such.

rotflmao


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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