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Originally Posted By: Mulan
***Yes...remember, the WS ALWAYS had the option, ALL ALONG THE WAY, of coming to his/her BS and saying something like:

***"Look, we have some problems in our marriage that need to be addressed...I find myself developing attractive "feelings" toward (OP) and I don't want to GO THERE. We need to talk!"

***Most WSs don't bother to do this out of a sense of selfish and immoral self-entitlement.

I also think that many folks Really and Truly Believe that if your spouse ain't givin' you what you want, you have the right to look elsewhere for it.


That thought never entered my head. I never had a sense of entitlement. Never, not once.

Originally Posted By: Mulan
It's kind of an unwritten rule that many folks do subscribe to. Of course it's dead wrong, but you will find many who honestly do believe that and it's usually due to the way they were brought up (very poorly).


Nope. I was brought up to have integrity, stand up for what's right, weather the storms, marry for "better or worse".

Originally Posted By: Mulan
And for some, who have grown up believing in this unspoken rule that "every knows about", they may well sabotage things so that their spouse will react with anger / grief / despair. Then, of course, said spouse is REALLY no longer giving them what they want, so they're even more entitled to look elsewhere.

Works really, really well. Anyone seen this?


Not me. That wasn't even on my radar. But I have seen this IRL. The fact that your H (xH?) thought that stealing money was ok tells me that he is a jerk and probably always has been.

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Mulan, you have my full permission and encouragement to put your WXH right on top of the "always defective" stack. hug


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
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I've just had an epiphany.

Pep's thread about the two types of WW is spot on. It also counts for WHs.

One of the things that upset my H the most about my A was that he related it to two of the most revolting men he knew. Both of them were serial cheaters, they had no character, no morals and were weak as dishwater.

There ARE differences and my H saw that. He knows me.

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I believe in the difference. laugh


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
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Mulan,

He returned last night and said he felt bad that I had cut him off. If he walked out the door one day, I'd be prepared. I went to bed last night to calm down.

Our child's First Communion today brings up memories of the First Communion of the oldest, when I was doing my best to please him and he was in the his affair.

What was he thinking to threaten to leave the day before my parents meet him for the first time in seven years and, most important of all, an important day in my daughter's life?

What was he thinking?

It's a good question to ask of someone after an affair. The husband who has an affair even though considers himself a moral peson has somehow twisted his thinking into: This is OK. My husband summed it up once for me, "I had a crazy wife and a shi**y marriage. I had no choice but to have an affair."

That is weak character.

As for you, Mulan, your husband has worked in a business which is full of thieves, and the thievery is being exposed. My husband does not. In fact, I was very impressed by how the hiring went. As a condition of employment, we had to see all our stock in one company because of the potential for conflict of interest. I think it makes a big difference if the ocmpany you work for is above board. If you ever want to read a book on the relationship between personal morals and corporate ethics, there's a book called The Seven Signs of Ethical Collapse. My first job after being a stay at home Mom for seven years was for a company that was blatantly violating the law. When I figured that out, I got myself out of there. It was the year I had four surgeries for a rare type of cancer, and at the time the filthiness I felt from having gotten into that situation without understanding it and then understanding it and trying to figure out how to get out was traumatic. I figured it out about late March and April and got myself on a different project but didn't leave until early June. My husband told me to quit, but I was tryig to figure out what to do -- call the government? call the ethics department? When a SrVP tells salespeople in your presence that something they do as a business practice is illegal, it's just shocking. Only I was the only one shocked. This was the company culture.

But I got out and am now happily employed with an organization that is doing its best to provide good value to its customers in an ethical way.

Is this similar to an affair and weak character? Yes.

When does a person get out of a relationship that has become immoral?

At first recognition? (Not my husband)

When someone warns him about it? (Not my husband)

When his wife is upset with him? (Not my husband)

When his wife threatens to call his wife and he breaks her arm to prevent her? (Not my husband)

When his wife calls the woman's husband and he gets the truth out of her and tells me and I expose to my entire family and his both the abuse and the affair? (Yes, my husband)

Why did the affair end, or did it?

I compare my husband's affair with my staying on at the company after hearing the Sr VP say it was illegal what they were doing. First there was disbelief, like the person heading into an affair thinking this was OK, it was just a friendship. Then there was recognition but what to do about it? I remember my husband saying to me things like, "We walked down this path together. I can't just end the friendship."

Once I realized it and decided not to do anything internally, I was gone. With my husband, the morals were abandoned in a justification "affair fog."

Do I claim stronger character than him? Yes I do. When I've gotten into situations that were headed to compromising, even a hint of it, I've gotten out of there. He did not.

Does that mean he'll do it again? No. He may be wiser the next time and less confident in his own ability to "handle it."

Cherished

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Quote:

Not me. That wasn't even on my radar. But I have seen this IRL. The fact that your H (xH?) thought that stealing money was ok tells me that he is a jerk and probably always has been.


And having an A is not being a jerk?

My H has always told me i was "too honest" because i would give back money if i did not received the correct change or things like that.

I always ask him "is there really such a thing as being too honest?"

As has been posted on this thread and many others usually the BS does not even know things are as "bad" as the WS perceives them to be.

What makes someone who becomes a WS not feel they can talk to their spouse about it rather than go have an A especially those who have been married a long time?

I do not think i am better or have better character because i have chose not to become wayward. However i believe that there is some feeling of "entitlement" or something going on in the waywards mind.

In my sitch, it think that way more of my needs were not being met than my FWHs and for a very long time (not saying that his weren't but mine weren't either) and i have not even considered having an A. Even with all the things that have happened in our 25 years that makes me feel "entitled" to have one I have chosen not to.

So what is the difference, is it character, is it entitlement, is it selfishness, I do not know.

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Quote:
However i believe that there is some feeling of "entitlement" or something going on in the waywards mind.


I agree, or certainly in my sitch this was the case. Not entitled to an A, but entitled to be "happy" and "free to make my own decisions"


Quote:
...and i have not even considered having an A.


I agree with this also. Matches exactly my case. Never once in my life did I consider having an A. Even up to the day/week/month before and several months AFTER my A started. Then I finally woke up to what was going on, looked back at the last couple months and then thought ... well, I won't say the dreaded three words that are so common among WS babble. (IJH)

Quote:
So what is the difference, is it character, is it entitlement, is it selfishness, I do not know.


It is all these and many other factors combined.

It's kind of a simple thing. Take a good look in the mirror, consider your own character flaws (If you aren't Jesus or a Disney Princess, you have them too.) And then look your image in the eye, and quote Dr. H : We are ALL vulnerable to an affair.


"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Freidrich Nietzsche

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Quote:

It's kind of a simple thing. Take a good look in the mirror, consider your own character flaws (If you aren't Jesus or a Disney Princess, you have them too.) And then look your image in the eye, and quote Dr. H : We are ALL vulnerable to an affair.


Whilei certainly know that i have character flaws and i love most of the MB principles and all that Dr Harley has put on this webiste, this is one thing that i do not agree with.

I just have always followed EPs since the day i met my H, i do not put myself in a place where anyone besides my H can meet my ENs and so far it has been pretty easy to do.

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Originally Posted By: Skald
[It's kind of a simple thing. Take a good look in the mirror, consider your own character flaws (If you aren't Jesus or a Disney Princess, you have them too.) And then look your image in the eye, and quote Dr. H : We are ALL vulnerable to an affair.


You forgot to add: We are ALL vulnerable to an affair, under certain conditions. Most people don't place themselves under vulnerable conditions.

Like StillCrazy said, she PRACTICES extraordinary precautions, therefore, she is NOT VULNERABLE to an affair. It is the folks who do not have any boundaries who are vulnerable.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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No, no weak character here and a full set of pre A morals, as seconded by my BH (over my shoulder). Somehow once my "friendship" developed, I developed an enormous sense of entitlement.

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Originally Posted By: staytogether
No, no weak character here and a full set of pre A morals, as seconded by my BH (over my shoulder). Somehow once my "friendship" developed, I developed an enormous sense of entitlement.

Situational indeed. This is the defintion of intrinsically weak character, morals and ethics.





"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

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Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
Quote:
Not me. That wasn't even on my radar. But I have seen this IRL. The fact that your H (xH?) thought that stealing money was ok tells me that he is a jerk and probably always has been.


And having an A is not being a jerk?


I'm drooling on myself with the same astonishment.

It's pretty dang odd to say deciding to steal money defines intrinsically bad character, but deciding to steal one or more marriages, huge chunks of innocent people's lives, homes, families and happiness is not.

Kind of stoopid, in fact.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
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Thats a moray ~DS
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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
You forgot to add: We are ALL vulnerable to an affair, under certain conditions. Most people don't place themselves under vulnerable conditions.

Like StillCrazy said, she PRACTICES extraordinary precautions, therefore, she is NOT VULNERABLE to an affair. It is the folks who do not have any boundaries who are vulnerable.


So, Mel, what are the conditions under which you would have an affair?

What are the conditions under which I would have an affair?

Seems certain conditions under which I would commit adultery are absolutely none of the conditions under which ever other human being who have ever lived decided to have their affairs.

Otherwise I would have one by now. Hundreds by now. Right?


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Originally Posted By: Aphelion


So, Mel, what are the conditions under which you would have an affair?



I can see it happening to me if I allowed another man to meet my needs. For example, if I had sloppy boundaries and went out to bars, restaurants with male friends/coworkers and engaged in alot of personal talk and allowed him to meet my needs. I can see how I could cross that line. But I don't do those things, so I am not vulnerable to an affair.

It is the same invisible line that I crossed into alcoholism. It wasn't a PLAN, it was a more a SLIDE into the pig pen and once I got there, I found myself so addicted that it was easier to ABANDON my morals than to abandon my behavior. It wasn't situational ETHICS, it was a wholesale ABANDONMENT.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Aphelion, why don't you just put me back on ignore - for both our sakes. Then you won't have to read what I write and I won't have to read the tosh and insults you write back to me.

And do let me know when St Aphelion day is. I'm not Catholic but, gosh, I really should honour someone who is completely perfect. You don't see it that often.

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Originally Posted By: sexymamabear
Originally Posted By: myfamilyilove

SMB, you have first hand knowledge of what it takes to be wayward. Why don't you sight your own experience?




I don't think a woman can hide her real character for 20+ years.

It seems much more plausible that a woman could be morally and spirtually lost for 1 month and then redeemed.



What is your agenda, Vladi?

You repeatedly post after me to bring up my affair. Is it really so complicated to you why I identify more with the BS?

If I see a BS turning WS during abandonment by the WS, I would be eager to share my experience as it would be RELEVANT. I have many times warned BS's about their vulnerability to someone outside their marriage meeting ENs by sharing about my affair.

I fought against my FWH's affair by working Dr. H's plans in Surviving an Affair. I've worked Dr. H's marital recovery plan. I counseled with the Harleys and attended the MB weekend. I have insight and experience to offer BS's who are fighting for their families. That experience includes the vulnerability of the BS to have an affair.

What exactly do you feel you bring to this board besides the desire to stir up strife?


The issue here is that here on MB an affair is an A, period. Whether the WS had one first of whether it was a ONS or a LTA it doesn't matter.

You had an A! The point is that I think that you should be more up front about it. Most posters here don't know that as you always identify yourself as the BS.

Even Jen, a long term poster here was not aware! This has nothing to do with my personal belief on the subject as I can totally understand why/how you did what you did.

Mt issue is that it is constantly swept under the rug as if it never happened and that is not the MBers way!

You named a few WS's above and left yourself off this list.

My question to you is: Do you class yourself as a WS?


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Originally Posted By: myfamilyilove
Mt issue is that it is constantly swept under the rug as if it never happened and that is not the MBers way!



Why in the world are you badgering her? It most certainly was not "swept under the rug." If that were the case, then we wouldn't know about it. There is no reason to rub her nose into it and badger her. What in the world are you doing?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Its very cleat that a lot of posters here don't know. Especially the new posters. SMB refers to herself as a BS ONLY. This is not the case. I think she should be more open with current posters (eg even KiwiJ didn't seem to know) and new posters. I just don't think SMB considers what she had was really an A when it clearly was!


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Originally Posted By: myfamilyilove
Its very cleat that a lot of posters here don't know. Especially the new posters. SMB refers to herself as a BS ONLY. This is not the case. I think she should be more open with current posters (eg even KiwiJ didn't seem to know) and new posters. I just don't think SMB considers what she had was really an A when it clearly was!



I think its very clear that you have an agenda to harass her and you might want to knock it off.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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SMB is welcome to put me on ignore if my questions are too hard, as is anyone else.

I believe this board should promote O & H.

Her situation is a classic case of "what not to do". It could be very useful if it wasn't such a hush hush affair


Plan D June 08
Me FBS 36
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Married 13/1/09
The best is yet to come, with or without your WS
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