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I've been reading the forums here at MB for the last month, ever since I discovered my WW's A to her boss. I'll try to sum up the entire story in a nutshell:
Wife had A in 2002 with a man who was a frequent flyer with the airline she works for. I discovered 3 months later and she broke it off, and we worked on the marriage. Things were good until the summer of 2008, my business was booming and NOW I know I neglected her. I am also guilty of LB's, and not being good at fulfilling her EN's. I never got the feedback to know that I wasn't doing this. She never gave it. If she did, it was cryptic and I didn't pick up on it. Not an excuse, I know. I even had SAA and HNHN to refer to but didn't use them. Again, another reg-flag.
On March 28, 2009, after seeing this wall being built between us for over 4 months, I discovered her over-the-top texting to ONE number. When I confronted her with this, she said the classic response, verbatim: "I still love you, but I'm not in-love with you. Haven't been for several years. I'm in-love with another." That "other" is her boss who she has known for 10 years. We used to regularly eat dinner with this man and his wife, go out on double-dates with them, our children socialized with their children. About makes me sick now.
Last 30 days have been a roller-coaster ride. My emotions have been all over the place, even worse than 7 years ago. She is DEAD-SET on moving out, says she is done. We have 2 children, ages 9 and 15. We decided in private that we wouldn't tell them anything until they were out of school, at the end of May. Living in the same house with a person who is trying desperately to avoid you or distance herself from you is very painful.
I want to save this marriage. I still am very much in love with this woman. We have been together for 26 years, married for almost 22. She completes me.
I have a good business, she doesn't go without much. She has a nice home, a new pool, travels, has nice things. Financial is not the problem. She doesn't have to work, although the flight benefits are great.
I implemented Plan A after I decided that I wanted to try to save our marriage and keep our family together. She responded by saying that I was acting phony and that I shouldn't get my hopes up. After this past weekend, I confronted her and asked if there was ANY chance we could TRY to make this work. She responded "there is absolutely NO WAY."
Now, being a computer programmer by trade, I had implemented several ways to gather information about the A. Getting complete TEXT messages isn't as hard as you think, just have to "think different". I had decided that my only path was to expose the A and hopefully she would come around (she has been in this fog since day one). I armed myself with Text messages, cell transactions, text transactions, photos from a party, and emails and headed for their place of work (major airport). When I tried to get the coward to meet me, he ignored my cell calls. I finally called his boss, told him there was something I needed to talk with him about, and then called his wife, who was blind-sided by the news. Within a few minutes, he called me, and I laid into him, wanting to know why he was destroying MY family, his family, his career, etc. He soon agreed with me that he would end his relationship with my wife, in fear I would inform the management of the A. I called his boss and told him that the issue was a personal one that I had handled, and left the airport. (all is fair in this game I've learned, I didn't want to threaten this SOB, but it did the trick. I did feel sick about it for the next two days.)
Big issue now, she is BEYOND furious. I knew she would be mad, but she went POSTAL. Even dragged me to her Boss' house to apologize (I went only to keep from getting into a huge fight). The coward wouldn't come out to talk to us, only his wife, who proceeded to lay into my wife. Just goes to show people wrapped up in fantasy worlds DO NOT think clearly.
My question: she is DEAD SET on leaving at the end of May. Should I continue Plan A and then switch to Plan B when she leaves? Has anyone else had a spouse who was so DEAD SET on leaving, blames you for everything, practically hates your guts, etc?

Thanks for any help you can provide...this forum has been my life-line now 2 times!

TriggerCat


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The affair will not end with them working together. You must expose the OM at work. You need to get NC between the OM and your WW. Write letter to the OM's boss, CC to the Director of HR, CEO, and the Board of Directors.

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Originally Posted by TriggerCat
I knew she would be mad, but she went POSTAL. Even dragged me to her Boss' house to apologize (I went only to keep from getting into a huge fight). The coward wouldn't come out to talk to us, only his wife, who proceeded to lay into my wife. Just goes to show people wrapped up in fantasy worlds DO NOT think clearly.
My question: she is DEAD SET on leaving at the end of May. Should I continue Plan A and then switch to Plan B when she leaves? Has anyone else had a spouse who was so DEAD SET on leaving, blames you for everything, practically hates your guts, etc?

OP, hats off to you. You are like me. Reading up like crazy, learning from others and then taking swift action. Kudos to you man. My advice, keep the pressure on.

Go full throttle on Plan A. By the way, did you change your behavior ?

What have you learnt from her first A ? I guess not enough, huh ? Sorry for the 2X4 but I mean that in a nice way.

You are doing GREAT. May want to consider exposting it to the rest of the company if you could.

If she leaves then yes you go to Plan B. BUT, make sure you read up on Plan A. DO NOT DO NOT talk about your relationship with her at all. You have one full month. Who knows, she may change her mind and not move out.

Also focus on improving your relationship with your little ones. Women love that. You are still early. You need plenty of patience, determination to get through this. You can do it. You are on the right track.

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Thanks TR and O1 for your words of wisdom. I had been afraid to post here but now I know it is the right thing.
My exposure has caused a ripple effect throughout their office. I really don't want anyone to get fired because of me, although I am prepared to go all the way if necessary, it's just that I feel for the OM's family (single income, 2 boys) and my WW is really beating me up for "going to her work to get her fired" (not my original intention, but very possible).
The OM's wife is now on the warpath, getting her family and HIS family involved. It's been painful, but I do believe it was the right thing to do.

optin1: Thanks for the encouragement. I'm reading and re-reading about Plan A in the book and on-line. I am currently away from home (with my 2 children) for a trip to my sister's home that had been planned months ago (she backed out after the March 28 meltdown). My exposure was actually well=timed so I could feel comfortable knowing she would behave herself while I was gone. While gone, I plan to spend some quality time with my girls and try to get some sleep (I sleep 4 hours max a night, have lost 21 pounds).
I just discovered that my 15 year old has been texting my WW and blasting her with questions she refuses to answer...when she askes me I tell her enough but I really want my WW to explain why she and Daddy are having problems. Her involvement, above everything else, has shown some of the first cracks in the WW's wall. (small cracks for sure, but I have seen them)

What have I learned?
FOLLOW THROUGH
FOLLOW THROUGH
FOLLOW THROUGH
and
Stick to a plan!

What else?
God gave you TWO EARS and ONE MOUTH. Listen twice as much as you speak.

I am working on being a better person, by watching what I say and treating people the way I would what to be treated.
I learned more about her EN's that drive home from the boss' house then I've heard the last 26 years. I immediately wrote them down (I'm a dense guy, I wasn't going to forget!) and matched them to the EN in HNHN. I now have a starting point to work from.
You are SO RIGHT about talking about relationships...OUCH!
Had to switch gears, keep things light and friendly, looking for different things to talk about.
I don't know, it still looks pretty bleak to me...I've never seen her so determined. I'm running on faith, hope, and the strength I get from you all.

Thanks for your fantastic support...I really appreciate it!
I am hurting so bad this is the only thing that keeps my faith alive.

-TC


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Originally Posted by TriggerCat
Getting complete TEXT messages isn't as hard as you think, just have to "think different".
TriggerCat

I'm assuming you mean that you used a Mac. I'd be interested to know how you can get phone text messages on a Mac.

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If your 15 year old DD is old enough to tell something is wrong and ask questions it's time for the truth.

No need for details just tell DD that mom is dating MR OM.

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Did you expose to WW's parents and siblings.

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Originally Posted by TriggerCat
The OM's wife is now on the warpath, getting her family and HIS family involved. It's been painful, but I do believe it was the right thing to do..
TC, dont feel guilty. As a BS you have very little tools to help you out in these horrific situations. OM's wife help in exposing to her familiy and his family is the absolute right thing to do.

Originally Posted by TriggerCat
try to get some sleep (I sleep 4 hours max a night, have lost 21 pounds)..

I hardly slept for the first week or so but it got better after that. You need plenty of rest. You must take care of yourself. Use this event as a trigger to change you completely. We are into 7th month of our recovery...tell you what...I took it very hard. The crying didnt stop until the 4 month. I am still devasted but getting there. My wife went through HUGE withdrawl during this time.

I suggest you spend AS MUCH time with your wife as possible. With your changed behavior ofcourse. Plan a family event. Watch a movie together. A comedy or something. Dont make any overt romantic gestures. Be subtle about everything...Make sense ?

Kids now a days are very smart. Your daughter probably knows everything by now. They say, children are very traumatized by what they see from their parents. It makes a permanent mark in their memory. You really need to talk to your wife and agree on what to say to your daughter. That you both have problems and you are working on it. And that your wife has a new boy friend. This has nothing to do with your little ones. Not their fault at all. And that you both are working to get through this in a sane manner. How old is the other one ? (may just want to share with your 15 yr for now).

Yes stick to a plan and make sure ALL LOVE BUSTERS are out the door. Also when you talk to her, look her in the eye. It is OK to let her know how much her actions have hurt you and your family. She needs to understand that.

Originally Posted by TriggerCat
I don't know, it still looks pretty bleak to me...I've never seen her so determined. I'm running on faith, hope, and the strength I get from you all.

ok, correction...you are not running on faith, hope. You have a CONCRETE plan. Like I said, from what I have seen/read so far, I am very impressed. You are changing your behavior. You are going to be a better person. You will treat her like you would like to be treated - as equal.

Hang in there. Keep posting.


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Fourth_Street,

My friends at the telephone company tell me getting actual text messages is nearly impossible. One told me they needed a court order to hand over what they had, and the phone company only keeps just very recent messages. They get wiped as space permits.
I was lucky as my WW has an iPhone, that syncs to a Macintosh.
The key is the iTunes syncing...during a sync it takes a snapshot of the entire phone, and stores it as a SQL db file. Now, you NORMALLY don't ever see this in iTunes, but IT DOES CAPTURE all texts and call transactions.
If you can get physical access to this Mac (or PC), the game is all over. Simply find the DB file "sms.db" and open it up with SQLite (a free reader) or do what I did, use MobileSyncBrowser by Vaughn Cordero (http://homepage.mac.com/vaughn/msync/), install on the WS's Mac (hide it somewhere, such in Utilities etc.), Now whenever WS syncs iPhone...go back to it and read EVERYTHING. To get my WS to sync (she never did) I told my DD to sync HER iPhone to her computer because there was an Apple upgrade (no lie). She overheard and synced hers THAT EVENING. Bingo. I just copied the files to my Mac and printed them out. Looks just like an iChat window with timestamps.
Vaughn is my hero.
Vaughn also makes a Windows version, but remember, YOU MUST HAVE ACCESS TO THIS COMPUTER.

I hope this helps...

-TC


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TR,

Actually, I didn't need to. SHE TOLD THEM. They've been very supportive of ME ever since. Her Father hasn't talked to her since she told them. I talk to her Mother almost every day.
I have a new respect for her parents, and we've actually become closer through all of this.
Now, I'm no fool, blood is thicker than water, but they seem really sincere in helping us get back together. Her Mother says it will take time, but don't give up. Her sister also knows and has stated that she is squarely in my corner.

-TC


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optin1,

Thanks for your support! It seems you and I have a lot in common (that may not be so good?). Yeah, I am feeling a bit better on the whole exposing. It adds a lot of pressure on my WS and hopefully that POS OM. (sorry about that, I'd rather express my pain this way instead of tearing his head off...I know, it takes TWO to tango, still...)

Currently about 1,500 miles away with my family. They all know, and have been excellent support. I've actually slept the past two nights 6-7 hours. Most I've had in a month. Reading and thinking about what I need to do has kept me busy, plus spending Quality time with my girls. (the small one is 9)

Crying? Goes in cycles. Haven't cried so much in my life. some days I just wake up crying. Or maybe in the shower, or my drive in to work. Its weird.

She doesn't seem to want to spend any time with me. At least not now. She took us to the airport and I bought our lunch while we waited for our flight. Made some small talk, she didn't talk much. As we walked to the gate she thanked me for buying lunch, I screwed up and said "you're welcome, I hope I you will let me buy your lunch again..." MISTAKE.
Should of said "thank you" and left it at that. Had to embellish it. Don't slam me, I know what I did wrong!

I'll try to get her involved but it might take a while. I know...subtle subtle subtle.

As far as the older daughter, she knows quite a bit, but I haven't exposed the OM to her, at least not directly. She knows, but hasn't asked specific questions. I'm going to leave it at that right now as I believe SHE needs to explain that.

While out of town, she has been texting my daughter a lot. Daughter returns by hitting her with specific questions such as "why didn't you tell Daddy goodbye?" etc. I don't want to be accused of using her as a way to get to my WS, but (indirectly) she certainly has been a powerful ally.

Thanks for all of your advise and support. This forum has been my lifeline!

-TC


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Originally Posted by TriggerCat
It seems you and I have a lot in common (that may not be so good?).
Oh, I forgot to tell you...I am in IT too ! What's up with IT wives who turn out to be waywards ? j/k.

Originally Posted by TriggerCat
Haven't cried so much in my life.

You know what. I never lost someone close to me in my life. Well, may be my grandfather and grandfather. But I didnt shed a tear. Also, I never cried ever since I was a kid. Let me rephrase. I dont remember the last time I had cried until the d-day. And then it began. I cried on and off....even sobbed at times...for a good 4 months like i said. I was stunned beyond anything. I was even amazed that I could cry so much and still get myself together when I was done crying ! The key thing is not to let emotions let you down the path of self-destruction. They are very powerful. Use them to your advantage in a postive manner. I did for most part. It worked wonders. I fell in love with my son. I took up new hobbies. People came to me and said "what's up with you ? You seem to inspire everyone around here"

Originally Posted by TriggerCat
I know what I did wrong!

I made several mistakes myself. Best thing you can do is to keep learning quickly. Hey, remember this is a life changing event for you. It is not that you go through this every day. You are learning yourself. But more importantly learn from others who have been there done that so to speak.

Originally Posted by TriggerCat
I'll try to get her involved but it might take a while.


Be creative. Could start out as a family event and then just you two out on a date. Surprise her. Send her a date invite via email. Go out and have dinner. No talk about relationship or affair.

Be very patient (I know easier said than done) as you get through this.

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Thanks for all the encouragement. The few friends that know about this all believe I should kick her to the curb...but even though my "Love Bank" has taken a hit, I still have deep feelings for this woman. Plus, I know too many families that shuttle their children between the two parents...you can't tell me that it doesn't affect them greatly.

I want to make this work for ME, and for THEM. It kills me that after 26 years together (21.5 married) she has turned so much against me. Guess our issues were deeper than I feared. Needless to say, this form and everyone on it has empowered me to march on, and keep up the fight.

optin1, I'll try your advice and see if I can't get her to join us on a family outing or two. I don't dare "ask HER out" anytime soon, only after I see some melting in the cold front. I see this upcoming summer as being a long, drawn out campaign!

I won't be back home until Monday, but my new confidence has being "loaded for bear" to face her again. Thanks for the boost!

-TC


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my WW is really beating me up for "going to her work to get her fired" (
You're doing fine, except that this one thing bothers me. At this point, you need to STEEL yourself, and STOP worrying about making her mad!

She is NOT your wife right now. She is an alien in your wife's body.

For this period, you need to be in war mode. Once you get your real wife back, you can work out your anger issues.

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Yeah, you are SO RIGHT about being an alien in my WW's body!
It's like logic and reality have gone straight out of the door.
When you read about it in SAA and HNHN, it doesn't really sink in until you experience it first hand. When you confide with someone they just don't understand the WW's thought pattern...it is so strange. Most think she has gone crazy, and in way, she kinda has...

Anyway, I'll keep up the fight. Continue working on ME. Try to include her in family things, etc. Battles may have been lost but the war ain't over!

Thanks to everyone for the encouragement!

-TC


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TriggerCat, I gotta give it to you. you are fighting for it. I like the Iphone thing. That alone might be enough reason for me to get my wife one. I think I have it easy compared most of you.
As for you bitterness toward OM. Brother, I am there with you. Don't do anything that will cause you legal trouble or prevent you from being with your children. But what the law says you can do and what the guy deserves....not the same thing.

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NiteLite1,

I think my biggest enemy right now is patience...not my strongest virtue. This is going to take time and I'm not good at waiting. As I mentioned my girls and I have been out of town the last 4 days and I have been missing her badly. We've text a few times, small talk, but I've not heard from her today at all. Don't want her to think I really miss her...but I do.
I will say, the time away has been good, but I am already playing down the anticipation of seeing her. I know she will be no different from when I left...seems like an eternity to me, she probably feels no time has passed for her.

I don't know where this is going, but I know regardless I'm going to do all in my power to improve myself, and hopefully, my relationship with my children and (if God is willing) her.
Am I fighting for it? Hell yes. If I fail at least I tried, and I need to be able to look in my children's eyes and tell them, Daddy did EVERYTHING in his power to make things work with Mommy.
I have to keep telling myself that this could take
A
L O N G
T I M E .

Setbacks. I know for a fact that she emailed the OM today (his wife called me to inform me of this). That news shot another hole through my heart. I had to go back and read about additions/withdrawal in SAA. It hasn't even been a week since I turned over the rock and watched the bugs scatter. I don't like it, but I guess it's normal...plus his BS jumped all over the email, and called me.
I also learned this evening that my Mother has already planned to visit my WW's parents next week, to discuss the situation. With all this activity, I'm going to term this: multi-level pressuring. I'm hoping it helps bring her out of the fog!

Thanks to everyone for the support and great advice.
I'm hanging in there because of you!

-TC


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Your mom seeing her mom will do nothing. Telling your DD that WW is dating OM will bring tremendous pressure on WW. Children handle the truth. Omitting the truth is the same as lying.

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Back from trip, found her notebook in her car as I was carrying in luggage. Notes inside have got me really upset. Here is what she wrote:

How are custodial parents decided?

If I move out, with or w/o girls, is it abandonment?

Who files? Does it matter?

Am I entitled to 1/2 of his business?

Can I make him move out & pay for house expenses till divorce?

How is child support decided?

Should I be working past my scheduled 20 hours?

Can he hold my affair over me in court?

Time Share?

I carry the girl's insurance.

Does it matter he tacks my every move, phone calls, text messages, controls all the money?

I was hoping things would be quiet when I returned, it appears she has taken the time to prepare me for the slaughter.

I am in PANIC MODE now...what can I do to defuse this?

Am I totally screwed?!

This sinking feeling is worse than the day I found out!!!!

-TC


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You need to Protect yourself by telling your Kids the truth and getting an Attorney.

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Trigger,
If I were you I would protect myself by consulting an attorney but I wouldn't abandon Plan A just yet - your WW is still in fog. I agree with previous post, you should tell your older DD the truth. Some Plan A's take six months or longer. Don't panic, stay calm so you can think clearly and stay focused.

GG


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Ok, I'm trying to remain calm. Thanks for your comments...I knew this wasn't going to be easy, and I shouldn't expect things to happen overnight, I just got a little anxious being gone for 5 days thinking something MIGHT of changed...RIGHT, no luck.

I have talked to an attorney, but I haven't retained one yet. It just seems that if I do I'm throwing in the towel...and damn it, I'm not ready to give up yet!
The more I look at her list, the more I think she and her harpy turncoat girlfriend (yes, no anger here) have been Googling divorce questions. The verbiage is too exact and the questions are too pointed. She (and I for that matter!) are not familiar with divorce law. Obviously she is learning. Even so, I'll go back to looking for a good pitbull to turn to if this doesn't go well.

I didn't exactly tell the DD the whole story, I told her enough that she put it together herself. She doesn't know details, but she knows now one of the major factors in her parents "issues". I made a promise not to speak badly about my WW in front of the children. And I have not. All I did was bring the horse to water, she took the drink herself. I just don't think the 9 year old will understand, She is too innocent, I just can't bring myself to telling her details. Sorry.

gg615, thanks for reminding me that these wars take TIME. Like I stated before, I'm not a patient man, but I have to learn it now or risk screwing everything up worse than it already is.
Originally, when I was told by my WW that she was moving out, I fought to keep her in the house until the end of May, when the children were out of school and they could deal with it better. I also wanted her to stay for Plan A, as I thought the longer she stays, the more time I have to work on myself and work on our relationship. At this point, I don't know WHEN she will be moving out, as she wasn't prepared for the cost of an apartment and I found out that the OM is being heavily policed by his BS until he transfers or gets fired.
If she stays longer, good, more time to implement Plan A. Otherwise, it's Plan B if she leaves.

It's just so painful to be at home and to try to put on a happy face. All I really need is a crack in her ice, or one little bit of encouragement from her to keep trudging on...It's been just over a month but i don't feel I've made much progress. In fact, I wonder if I'm not taking a few steps BACKWARDS.

Never the less, I'm going to keep moving and stick to the plan. If anyone has some suggestions to help me break the ice, ie: somehow get something POSITIVE from her, I would really appreciate the ideas!

Bless you all for being so supportive! Reading these responses is better than anti-depressants (that I'm getting tomorrow!).

-TC


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"I didn't exactly tell the DD the whole story, I told her enough that she put it together herself. She doesn't know details, but she knows now one of the major factors in her parents "issues". I made a promise not to speak badly about my WW in front of the children."

Exactly what did you say to DD?

Promise, what promise? Why would you promise to lie? Hiding the truth is lying by omission.

No details need to be given. You need to tell DD that WW is having an affair. WW and OM are dating.

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All you have to tell your daughters - BOTH of them - is that Mom has decided to sleep with another man while she is married to you, and that this is not an ethical or moral thing to do.

You do this for 2 reasons. One so that she cannot trick them into thinking she's doing the right thing - they will know better and may even give her a hard time, i.e. help you save her from herself.

And two, girls almost ALWAYS turn out to do and believe exactly what their mothers do. Do you want your daughters to do the same thing to their lives when they grow up? They will, if you don't tell them the truth now.

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It's just so painful to be at home and to try to put on a happy face. All I really need is a crack in her ice, or one little bit of encouragement from her to keep trudging on...It's been just over a month but i don't feel I've made much progress. In fact, I wonder if I'm not taking a few steps BACKWARDS.
That's because you haven't done enough to expose and make the A look as slimy and disgusting as it really is.

In other words, it does no good to Plan A if you aren't actively trying to stop the A. Starting with exposure.

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TC,

Your kids

You told your oldest enough on what was going on. Leave it at that. With your younger one, I would keep it a very high level right now.


Your Plan right now

I get the sense that she wont talk to you at all when you are both home? What does she do? I can understand how difficult it is to stay positive or even get through the day. Hang in there. Take one day at a time.

Here is your best hope. That she stays as long as possible and you continue to implement Plan A.

Did she say what she wants? (now that her OM is pretty much not an option). As far taking step backwards....Why would you say that? I know this is very difficult but here is the truth. Your wife checked out of your marriage long time ago. The (affair) exposure only precipitated her decision to leave. You have two issues. Bad marriage and the affair. You are dealing with both using Plan A. That is the beauty of it.

About seeing an attorney

Look this is a personal decision. My view is different. Unless you suspect your spouse is indulging in activities that are detrimental to you/your kids, I have no reason to see an attorney. Plus you ARE fighting for your marriage. So how can you work on your marriage and also see a divorce attorney at the same time? I never saw one. I told my wife in no uncertain terms that I want to work on the marriage. That does not mean there were no rules or boundaries. It starts with you. She won’t do anything for you right now. But at a minimum she needs to maintain total NC which is looking very good in your case. So, why the hurry to see an attorney? Can it not wait?

How do I get through my day ?

I actually thought I could never wake up to see another day without my wife being right next to me. I am not kidding when I say I don’t think that way anymore. So what helped? Following Plan A to the T. Work on yourself. Work on improving your relationship with your DDs. It takes months. Not a month or two to even see the little changes. The changes are so subtle you won’t see anything for a long while. Time alone is however not enough. You need change of behavior and I am NOT saying it will work out fine for you. All I am saying is you MUST give your best shot. Best attempt to get through this for your sake and your daughters sake. There are no easy answers. What are your hobbies? What can you do? I like music, I compiled a list of my favorite songs (70s rocknroll). Listened to them over and over. I compiled an album of pictures of my son from his birth to present day... (Printed pictures). I then left them in my wife’s car as a total surprise. You have two DDs that you can focus on. What more do you need?

Despite all the best efforts, she could still leave. Be prepared for that. However, she is not your enemy (that POSOM is!). She is your wife. She needs your help right now because she is "broken".

By the way, I would advise you not to leave your home anymore. Yeah, she might say she needs space and what not to think about this. The answer is NO. You are not leaving even for few days. I really wish you had left your DD9 with her when you were gone as opposed to leave her alone by herself.

Also there will be tendency to overreact in these tough times. For example, I thought my wife contacted OM when she did not (the key logger was not conclusive even then I overreacted) and I felt really bad later on. So watch yourself there. You will have PLENTY of triggers. Plenty of sinking-heart feelings. How you cope with them is important.

Are you spending time with your wife?

Several questions. Are you sleeping together? Are you talking with each other on daily basis? Can you schedule time to talk? Do you have any plans for Mother’s day? Can you plan a family event? Can you and your wife watch a movie together? Can you both be honest and open with each other? – No matter how hurtful it is. This is SO important. Now that the affair is in the open, why don’t you both start with a clean slate? OPEN and HONEST communication going forward.

It was awkward and hurtful for both of us. But looking back, that was the best thing we did. For us. Plus in my opinion that is the only way you can heal/move forward.

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Thank you for your responses!

TR,

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Exactly what did you say to DD?

I explained to her that her Mother was not happy with me, and that the printed text messages she found (my WW had tossed them on the kitchen table after she called me out about being able to get entire text conversations. I had only printed a couple of pages) had a lot to do with it. My DD then asked me, so she is involved with "OM"?!
She's pretty wise for 15. I didn't have to say anything else.

Still have a problem telling the 9 year old this, although she and the 15 year old have been talking. If she asks, I'll tell her.


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Catperson,

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All you have to tell your daughters - BOTH of them - is that Mom has decided to sleep with another man while she is married to you, and that this is not an ethical or moral thing to do.

You do this for 2 reasons. One so that she cannot trick them into thinking she's doing the right thing - they will know better and may even give her a hard time, i.e. help you save her from herself.

we have discussed this, although not in context to my problem with their mother. I agree that I didn't think about this angle, so I will bring it up to them (or at the the 15 year old) tomorrow.

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And two, girls almost ALWAYS turn out to do and believe exactly what their mothers do. Do you want your daughters to do the same thing to their lives when they grow up? They will, if you don't tell them the truth now.

Actually, this does scare me. I will consider your advice on how I can prevent this from happening.

Thank you.


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optin1.

Thank you. I've read your response over and over today several times before I could even think of replying. I have drawn great strength from it.

Thank you.

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You told your oldest enough on what was going on. Leave it at that. With your younger one, I would keep it a very high level right now.

The oldest knows what is going on. She didn't need me to detail it out, she put it together. She has already indicated her extreme displeasure with her mother. The little one follows suit with her big sister. I haven't ruled out telling her, but not yet.

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I get the sense that she wont talk to you at all when you are both home? What does she do? I can understand how difficult it is to stay positive or even get through the day. Hang in there. Take one day at a time.

Conversation is Yes and No, sometmes small responses, but I must initiate them. We did have dinner out the other evening, and her conversation was aimed at the children, not me. I was "just there". I will admit, she did call me today driving home from work, something she used to do everyday before things went south. Short conversation, but pleasant. Kind of like a courtesy call. Conversation at dinner was small, and mostly centered around the children, but she seemed to tolerate me.

I agree that this is going to be one day at a time.
My doctor fixed me up with some anti-depressants today so maybe that will help a little. I still am unsure how long she plans to stay, end of May was our last conversation. I'll work that question into a conversation when I can.

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Did she say what she wants? (now that her OM is pretty much not an option). As far taking step backwards....Why would you say that? I know this is very difficult but here is the truth. Your wife checked out of your marriage long time ago. The (affair) exposure only precipitated her decision to leave. You have two issues. Bad marriage and the affair. You are dealing with both using Plan A. That is the beauty of it.

Yes. I finally heard what she said, and understand a little of what she wants. Without pulling out the book and grilling her with questions, I was able to figure out her 5 EN's. Tey are on an index card that I carry in my pocket, to remind me constantly what I need to do.

Backwards? Easy, it was a BAD weekend (well, Sunday anyway). It was a letdown day, and it felt that I was going nowhere. Today was better due to the fact we talked more today than yesterday. Still distant, but small talk. I also learned from the OM's BS that she had him call her (my WW) and tell her it was over, and not to contact him. I am waiting to hear about his transfer or relocation.

Checked out? Yep. About 6 months ago as far as I can tell.
You hit the nail on the head about her decision to leave after I found out. I am chugging along with Plan A...I just hope I can hold out to see it through...

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About seeing an attorney

Look this is a personal decision. My view is different. Unless you suspect your spouse is indulging in activities that are detrimental to you/your kids, I have no reason to see an attorney. Plus you ARE fighting for your marriage. So how can you work on your marriage and also see a divorce attorney at the same time? I never saw one. I told my wife in no uncertain terms that I want to work on the marriage. That does not mean there were no rules or boundaries. It starts with you. She won’t do anything for you right now. But at a minimum she needs to maintain total NC which is looking very good in your case. So, why the hurry to see an attorney? Can it not wait?

I am in TOTAL AGREEMENT. I plan to drag my heals here. Even if she files, I won't sign...not until I know there is absolutely no hope. (and I am still hopeful!)

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I actually thought I could never wake up to see another day without my wife being right next to me. I am not kidding when I say I don’t think that way anymore. So what helped? Following Plan A to the T. Work on yourself. Work on improving your relationship with your DDs. It takes months. Not a month or two to even see the little changes. The changes are so subtle you won’t see anything for a long while. Time alone is however not enough. You need change of behavior and I am NOT saying it will work out fine for you. All I am saying is you MUST give your best shot. Best attempt to get through this for your sake and your daughters sake. There are no easy answers. What are your hobbies? What can you do? I like music, I compiled a list of my favorite songs (70s rocknroll). Listened to them over and over. I compiled an album of pictures of my son from his birth to present day... (Printed pictures). I then left them in my wife’s car as a total surprise. You have two DDs that you can focus on. What more do you need?

You are right. It was out of self-pity that I would say that. I have a ton of projects around the house/yard that for one reason or other, haven't gotten done. I have started scheduling them in every weekend. This puts me home, with her (as long as she doesn't leave), addresses some of the "issues" we had, and gets my (our) house in order.

I have started setting up "dates" with the girls. A movie, shopping, the museum, etc. My hope is that if I keep it open, and keep it "no pressure", she might join us.

One of the things my WW enjoy together is music. I did acquire quite a bit of digital music recently that I could move to the music server so she could listen to it. She plays music throughout the house EVERYDAY. She has commented that installing the speakers was the best gift I ever gave her.
I'll put that on the top of my list.

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Despite all the best efforts, she could still leave. Be prepared for that. However, she is not your enemy (that POSOM is!). She is your wife. She needs your help right now because she is "broken".

Yeah, I know. I'm better today then let's say, a week ago.
I just treat it like Plan B, as she HAS to deal with me over the children.

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By the way, I would advise you not to leave your home anymore. Yeah, she might say she needs space and what not to think about this. The answer is NO. You are not leaving even for few days. I really wish you had left your DD9 with her when you were gone as opposed to leave her alone by herself.

This was unavoidable. She was actually supposed to go with us before this all blow-up. I was committed in a ceremony, as were my children, so I couldn't leave one or both.
Don't plan to leave anymore.

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Several questions. Are you sleeping together? Are you talking with each other on daily basis? Can you schedule time to talk? Do you have any plans for Mother’s day? Can you plan a family event? Can you and your wife watch a movie together? Can you both be honest and open with each other? – No matter how hurtful it is. This is SO important. Now that the affair is in the open, why don’t you both start with a clean slate? OPEN and HONEST communication going forward.

No. Once since the Blow-up. Working on that.
Talking? Not much, but more today than yesterday. I keep trying...no pressure, no relationship talk, etc.
Might attend a large Family Event on Mother's Day, waiting for confirmation on this. Otherwise, will try to arrange SOMETHING.
Trying to get her to go on the girls' and I date to see a movie...she hasn't allowed me to watch TV with her, so this is something that may take more time...

We did have an honest and open talk after coming home from the disastrous visit to her Boss' house. This is were I actually LEARNED her EN's. First time I had really heard her express them. We both kind of exploded that evening, and it might be a while before she and I can talk like that again. Remember, she has "had it", ready to move on, so I'm still trying to dampen that feeling before I talk about "us".
But, I'm still working towards that goal! I will use the "clean slate" idea, it is what we need.

Thank you again for your response optin1, it has been like a light in the darkness. You and I have a lot in common...

Thank you all for your support! It gets me charged up to fight another day!

-TC


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optin1,

After I posted last night, I was thinking about one of your ideas:

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I compiled an album of pictures of my son from his birth to present day... (Printed pictures). I then left them in my wife’s car as a total surprise.

In my situation, this idea is really brilliant. She used to meet the OM before work off site (something that I have yet to confirm has ended, Lord help her and him if I find out there has been a relapse), so a book of pictures of our children in her car might add support in a mental sort of way.
I guess I'll have to start to incorporate psychological warfare into my game plan.
All's fair in Love and War, right?

And trust me, this IS a war.

Thank you everyone for your support!
This forum has been a lifesaver to me.

-TC



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Just a couple of quick things went through my mind:


  • Have you considered a voice-activated recorder under the seat of her car?
  • Have you considered attaching a GPS recorder to the car?
  • Would it be appropriate to tell your youngest child that 'mommy has a boyfriend and that is something married people aren't supposed to do'?
  • Have you talked to human resources at the company and told them what is going on? In respect to misuse of company time and resources and the potential for sexual harrassment suit?



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cinderella,

In response to your questions:

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Have you considered a voice-activated recorder under the seat of her car?
No, but that isn't a bad idea. I'll research.

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Have you considered attaching a GPS recorder to the car?
Actually, yes I have, and have found a fairly inexpensive device to do it (www.TrackingKey.com). We live in a smaller town that makes it fairly easy to follow people.

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Would it be appropriate to tell your youngest child that 'mommy has a boyfriend and that is something married people aren't supposed to do'?
As I've stated before, I am not keen on doing this, but if i don't believe things have cooled off I'll do it. It's just that this child is my last innocent one....

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Have you talked to human resources at the company and told them what is going on? In respect to misuse of company time and resources and the potential for sexual harrassment suit?
This is a tough one for me, going to their HR will likely result in both losing their jobs. Now, as far as my WW, she would be a casualty of war, BUT the OM, as for him, WHO CARES, but to his family, this would put them on the street. If I could affect HIM, then I would have no problem doing it. It's just that his family would be devastated. I'm not sure I could live with myself if they suffered because of his selfishness...

Now, I have been in contact with the OM's BS. She has begged me not to go to their HR, as the OM is their only source of income. I have been told that the A is over, but I'm not convinced. I know I hold the trump card here, so if I have to, I'll tell the OM's BS that he should transfer, switch jobs, etc. or I'll go to HR anyway. The BS has indicated that my WW is the aggressor, which is probably true, but if he values his job, he should be able to block her out.

My goal is NC, but I must take a few steps to arrange this...
I also have to collect some more proof the A is still going on.

I'll look into these ideas, thank you cinderella!

-TC


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You need WW to have NC with the OM> Go to HR and expose. They can't be allowed to work for the same company. Your exposing is not going to get anyone fired. Their actions, their decision to have an affair will get them fired, maybe.

The OM is destroying your family. The OM does not care about you, your children, your heatlh, childrens well being, your family.

It's unbelieveable that you are worried what can happen to OM and his family. The man that is knifing you in the back.

You do not need proof that the affair is on going. You need to expose.

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Yup....that's what I was leading up to.

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Very ugly this evening.

This morning while I was checking the balance of our checking account, I noticed that we were $177 in the red. I immediately transferred money to cover the difference, and then proceeded to look at he transactions to see were I had screwed up. I found a debit from the cell phone company that I didn't recognize. I text my WW and asked if she knew what it was. I never got a response. On the way home this evening, I called her and got a very chilly response...seems she was mad I had asked about the cell phone company's charge. Come to find out she had purchased a secret cell phone and used our debit card to pay for it. She deposited the money to cover it, but it didn't get credited in time.

One of her biggest issues with me is she feels I control her, and watch her every move. Do I? Yes, I do. I've been trained to do it since A #1. I did get A LOT BETTER but I never gave her the full trust she wanted. By the time A #2 came along I already was digging to figure out what was going on. (If you haven't figured it out already, I'm a good digger.)

Here is my problem: she is SO UPSET with me I think I took about a dozen steps backwards. I HONESTLY found this little "gem" by accident. I wasn't looking for it.
She screamed at me about keeping out of her personal life. Then she said something that I didn't expect; "how can you expect us to make this work if you are constantly following me and looking over my shoulder?!"
OK, maybe it's not much, I was ready to defend myself for digging but this is the FIRST time since this went south that I've heard ANYTHING positive from her about "us". I know, she was lying about this new phone, and deliberately keeping it a secret. I have EVERY RIGHT to know what is going on. I know that.
Here is my question: she is SO TICKED OFF right now that I can't even imagine her "trusting" me. She feels like I keep her under lock and key. How do I get her to understand I'll back off if she comes to the table...? If this DOES work out, I don't want her to feel like I am keeping her prisoner.

Before I get flamed by the good people here, hear me out!

How can I transition this? I know I was justified to ask questions, dig, etc. OF COURSE, SHE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THIS. She may NEVER understand this! But what can I do to build some bridge of cooperation? You see, for her to be happy here, she doesn't want to feel like she is always under the microscope! How can I do this? Is there a plan? Is this type of response from WS's normal?

This is a major hurdle in my plan...the WS not feeling like she is being controlled or watched. I know I HAVE TO, to some extent, but I can't see any chance of repair until she feels like I am not keeping her under house arrest...

(I know, it's a two-edge sword)

Thanks for all your help,

-TC

ALSO: I do plan to expose the OM at work, but after the DD gave her mother both barrels this evening (like I said, she figured it out), and after the little cell-phone cover-up, I might give it a day or two...the tension is so thick around here I can't stand it...

Last edited by TriggerCat; 05/05/09 05:43 PM.

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You will not be successful if you do not expose and do not expose fist thing tommorrow.

You needed more proof. Hidden cell phone found. Now you have more proof and you still find a reason to not expose. DD yelling at her WWmom is not an exceptable excuse to not expose. They are not equal actions. You are living in the land of denial.

You need to go down to wally world, health care dept, third ailse, on the right hand side, and buy some testicles, two to a box, there right next to the bottles of testosterone.

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The marriage will die if there is continued contact.

Period.

Your wife is doing the typical wayward spouse thing. See, around here, we recognize it. They all get the same 'Wayward Spouse Manual' and they read it, study it, memorize it, follow it, and they just don't understand when betrayed spouses wise up and stand up to them.

You know, if she was a faithful wife, you would have no reason to snoop and she would have no reason to be upset about you finding her secrets.
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Originally Posted by TriggerCat
Here is my problem: she is SO UPSET with me I think I took about a dozen steps backwards. I HONESTLY found this little "gem" by accident. I wasn't looking for it.

TC,

First of all, was the purchase made recently or just after the exposure ? If she purchased it with devious intention of contacting OM behind your back when you were on your trip, then I would call OM's wife immediately and share that information.

About exposure....There is obviously LOT going on in your home right now. BEFORE you take the nuclear action of exposing it at work, I suggest you sit down with your wife and talk. I mean really....just two of you. You WILL continue to take step backwards if she does not come out completely clean about the affair, be open and honest about everything she does from this point on. Same thing goes for you. Do you understand that ? I mean sitting down one-on-one basis, just two of you ?

Oh, by the way, she does not have a personal life right now after what she has done to your family. However, back off just a bit. I warned you about overreacting earlier. Take it easy. Give that benefit of the doubt (I know I said that). Her words "how can you expect us to make this work...." are indeed encouraging. Take that as positive. Tell her how you feel and why you did it. You are on pins and needles. She needs to understand that. Do that in a CALM manner. Break down in front of her if you cannot control yourself. That is obsolutely ok.

She obviously thinks you are controlling her. (lot of women think that way...so did my wife). They feel very unsafe and insecure. That makes them not share anything with you emotionally. You really really need to calm down, man. You must encourage her to open up.

Making her feel more secure so she can start opening her guts out. She may be hesitant do it at first. So you start first. If things get out of control, take TIMEOUT. I mean literally call a TIMEOUT, step out of the room, whatever. Do not indulge in AOs or DJs. OP, I went through all this myself. We did it...It is possible. It takes immense strength, self control to break the ice. It is new for both you and your wife. BUT that is the need of the hour.

Here is the thing you need to understand. You CANNOT NOT talk to her, find something suspicious, pin her down for truth and then expect things to go positive. Her reaction is not surprising at all. A typical wayward response.

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Here is my problem: she is SO UPSET with me I think I took about a dozen steps backwards. I HONESTLY found this little "gem" by accident. I wasn't looking for it.
I think you are looking at this wrong. If you are worried about taking steps backwards - in the face of MORE infidelity - she has you by the you know what, and she knows it. SHE needs to be proving to you that she deserves your trust, not the other way around.

It sounds like you are married to someone who knows how to manipulate you into feeling like you have to keep kissing up to her, to keep her from being mad at you. Is that love? Is that even a marriage? I don't think so.

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She screamed at me about keeping out of her personal life. Then she said something that I didn't expect; "how can you expect us to make this work if you are constantly following me and looking over my shoulder?!"
And your answer should be "how can you expect me to want to stay married to you if you are sneaking around behind my back and lying to me?"

See how that works? She tries to manipulate you, to shut you up, so she can keep doing WTH she wants. STOP letting her twist you around her finger. Respect yourself, so that she will respect you.

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When you start trying to bring everything to the light, your wife will start what we old-timers call 'fog babble' - that is the crazy, stupid stuff waywards say while in the fog of denial and lust and unreality.

You need to be well versed on several things - -
- angry outbursts (avoid these)
- disrespectful judgements (avoid these)
- the art of exposure
- emotional needs (find hers that you can meet right now)
- reverse babble (there is a thread on General Questions II - somewhere)

Your marriage may yet survive but not if there is a third party involved.

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Ok ok ok...

I'm a real mess today. I've read your posts and I know that I need to get NC between my WW and the OM. I know this. I can do this. I really don't give a d@mn about OM. This is war.
It's just that my WS is hitting me with D questions, like last night "have you looked into getting YOUR house refinanced?", and "I would like to see your retirement statements." See what I'm talking about?! As optin1 stated; If I set-off a nuclear explosion NOW what will my chances for R be?! Is that the plan?!

I'm so stressed I didn't sleep last night at all. I had planned to go directly to their big boss and pull the trigger, but I'll admit, with things so negative around my house, HOW COULD THIS POSSIBLY HELP NOW?!

Yes, I know it has to be done. My investigation indicates that the A is over (her mood, her returning "secret" cell phone, spies, texts that indicate she "lost her best friend"), BUT I KNOW THIS COULD BE TEMP THING UNLESS NC!

optin1, tried to talk to her, she doesn't "want to go there". She says "that is in the past". She doesn't want to talk about "us". She has checked out...
My only option at this time is that...time. Drag my feet. I'm not filing. I don't plan to refinance the house.
I'll keep trying to talk to her...she is just SO distant to me...am I expecting too much too soon? How do continue combating this? Stay the plan?!

I am in so much pain today. I can't stop shaking. I truly am a take-charge person but I am so scared of making the wrong move, I've made so many.


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Calm down. She is just doing typical Change Back! behavior. Scrambling for anything and everything that she can think to throw at you to make you STOP interfering between her and OM. It is desperation.

That means it's working! Celebrate that!

Every thing she brings up, just smile at her and say "I love you, honey. Would you like a cookie?" Refuse to get dragged into any conversation about anything but her and NC with OM.

It is THIS kind of man who gets his wife back. It truly is.

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catperson,

Thank you.

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Calm down. She is just doing typical Change Back! behavior. Scrambling for anything and everything that she can think to throw at you to make you STOP interfering between her and OM. It is desperation.

That means it's working! Celebrate that!
I did go though the posts about the "Babble". She is all over that crap, so much is word for word it's almost comical. Also, she is re-writing history. What can I say/do to get his moving in the right direction, just stay the course?

It's just that she is SO FOCUSED on leaving. Is this typical behavior too? I've never seen her so determined in my life.

Thanks for your words of support. I thought I could be strong but I'm seeing that I need all the help I can get...today is a very low "roller-coaster" day...need a little help getting up the hill.

-TC


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Just remember that, until she stops seeing OM, nothing much else matters. It makes no sense to talk to her while she is still seeing him - she is still an addict. Have you ever tried to reason with an addict? All they think about is their next hit.

Yes, Plan A.

But move heaven and earth to stop the affair.

Did you expose?

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Telling us that you need to expose is not exposing WW's affair.

Your ship has been torpedo. You cry why me. Yet you refuse to turn on the bilge pumps (expose).

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Originally Posted by TriggerCat
..am I expecting too much too soon? How do continue combating this? Stay the plan?!

I dont think you are expecting too much in asking her to talk to you. Talk about anything. Not about the affair or relationships. Just anything to get you both started. For the sake of your kids. Why does it have to about us ? Why cant it be about what she has on her mind or on your mind ? About how much you are hurt by this. She is not willing to be a listener ?

I know this is difficult BUT keep trying and continue on PLAN A. Stay calm.

Does she understand that you both play a huge role in your kids' lives no matter what comes out of this ? Oh, I forgot. She is still in major fog. She cant see anything beyond 2 inches.

Here is something you can learn from me and others. Dont make any decisions that will make your recovery potentially difficult. I will leave it upto to make that call on work-exposure. Ask her to respect you and your kids and cut the affair as you both work through this. Have her tell you everyday that she has total NC with OM. Can she do that atleast ?

I see positives..such as she saying she lost her best friend (yeah f*g right). My wife said that same thing. I wish she had said she lost her best f* buddy. How can they be so naive ? Your goal is to get your wife to go through major withdrawl. And you expedite that by following Plan A.


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Here is something you can learn from me and others. Dont make any decisions that will make your recovery potentially difficult. I will leave it upto to make that call on work-exposure. Ask her to respect you and your kids and cut the affair as you both work through this. Have her tell you everyday that she has total NC with OM. Can she do that atleast ?

One dilema is she doesn't want to try to work through this. Like I said, I'm dealing with someone who has already "checked out". That is my other uphill battle. I'll keep "gently" moving towards changing her mind, but Lord knows how long that might take.

optin1: Thank you for the confidence, I'm going to stop whining and keep trying. I really needed a boost today.

As far as NC, I will ask, but even if she does try to comply, they work together practicality the same shift everyday. I don't see anyway they could not come in contact with each other...

No excuses, I'm going to have to expose it. Short of having her quit, it's the only way to break the addiction...

optin1: I'll try it your way today, but if I don't get anything but a satisfactory answer, I'll be calling her their Boss ASAP.

TR and catperson: I'm sorry I'm being a wimp, I just didn't want to make things worse than what they already are...but you are right, they are already the worse they can be...

thanks.


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As far as NC, I will ask, but even if she does try to comply, they work together practicality the same shift everyday. I don't see anyway they could not come in contact with each other...

No excuses, I'm going to have to expose it. Short of having her quit, it's the only way to break the addiction...
Especially if they work together!

You realize, right, that you have to tell their bosses and the company's HR division?

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TC,

The beauty of Plan A is that it is YOUR plan. It isn't dependent on anything she does or does not do whether in response to what you do or independently of what you do.

Plan A does NOT try to educate her into doing the right thing.
Plan A does NOT try to manipulate her into doing the right thing.
Plan A does NOT require that she buy into trying to save the marriage.
Plan A does NOT require an end to the affair for you to begin acting.
Plan A does NOT require anything from her at all.
Plan A is NOT about whether or not she wants to try to save the marriage but only about whether or not YOU are willing to try.
Plan A does NOT require input from her or that you convince her of anything at all.

Plan A:

Identify her top ENs (3 -5) and develop a specific plan to meet them as much as she allows. This makes deposits into her Love Bank thereby raising her feelings for you into a place where she DOES care about you and WANTS to be with you.

Identify Love Busters that you might knowingly or unknowingly commit to avoid undoing anything good that you might pick up by meeting her ENs. Get rid of ALL Love Busters by you.

Expose the affair to those closest to her or in the position to put the most pressure on her/OM and the affair itself. The enemy of your marriage is NOT your WW. It is NOT OM. The enemy of your marriage is THE AFFAIR. Attack the affair and not her. Don't bother telling her how OM is bad, she won't hear it. (Goes back to trying to educate her)

Plan A assembles these three things in order to make the affair less attractive and you more attractive. It really is simple positive and negative reinforcement. Give her what she needs/make it unpleasurable to get it from OM and more pleasurable to get it from you. Make TC the BEST TC that can be and don't worry about what she says.

She fell in love with you once. Find that guy and bring him back into her life. You take care of YOUR end of Plan A and try to do it no matter what she does for as long as you can. If after some predetermined time (3 months or so) she isn't responding at all, we'll talk Plan B.

Mark

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Mark knows what he is talking about. He is a good man. He would never intentionally give you bad advice.

You can go to the bank with what he says.

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Happy Mother's Day?

First off, Mark, thank you.
I printed off your response and I keep it in my pocket. I read it several time a day when I need reinforcement. It keeps me positive. It makes me understand what Plan A is about.

Thank you so much.

I identified what I believed were her 5 EN's and tried to avoid any LB's. Although i have failed in the one thing I believe is her biggest complaint: my control (and the fact that I track everything she does).

Now, I know that is my right to know what she is up to, but this has caused an unbelievable amount of conflict! This "control" thing is the reason she told me this evening "I am never coming back to you. Once I am gone, I am never coming back. I can't live under your control anymore. Stay out of my private life."

Her fear of my "control" is her MAIN reason for leaving me!

This past week, I followed option1's plan to back off of checking her cell phone (she got another "secret phone" I found today), her emails, following, etc. to prove to her that "I'm not keeping her under a microscope." It killed me not knowing what she was up to, but I wanted to show her that I wasn't controlling her. Now I'm kind of at the end of my rope...
Her management is aware of the A (I don't know if she knows that yet, fallout probably tomorrow), the OM's BS is aware of what is going on, her parents know, my children know, etc.

She is still at home until the children finish school (end of May) but this is killing me! I plan to continue Plan A but I'm really down right now...she left to go out with "friends" this evening (on a Sunday?) and told me she "may not" be home tonight. I asked her "what kind of example are you setting for the girls?" No response.

How do I fix a "control" issue? Every time I check on her, find out her secret dealings, etc. it causes a huge blow-up and it makes her impossible to be around! She even said (in a similar way) I withdraw way more love units then I deposit.

Help. I feel like the last man on sinking ship...





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I'm sorry but this is complete affair speaking! You HAVE to watch her, her new phone is proof of it!

LET her leave. Let her lose her children. Jeez. Why do BSs get so scared of making their WSs mad?! LET HER KNOW what she is throwing away! Let her know that you are tracking - and saving as proof - her every move. And until she is willing to NC, you will treat her like an enemy spy. She is HURTING your family!

Surely you are at least following her tonight to find out where she goes?!

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Verifying if their is an affair, contact, is not controling. Forcing WW to do something, or not do something as carry on her affair is controlling.

WW fog speak to a BH that he is controlling is baloney, to get the BH to stop him from catching WW in an affair.

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Stay out of my private life

WW is defending her entitlement to secrecy, not privacy.

"You are too controlling" is your WW's take on the marital issues.

Why play by a wayward's rules? Why do you accept her assessment? Don't! It's just plain wrong.

Stop worrying about being controlling, because you're not. You are entitled to knowledge about your own life, including details of your W's affair.


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I took catperson's advice and decided to follow her.
I couldn't leave when she did, as I have the children at home, but I do know where the OM lives and I do know his wife and family where out of town this weekend. I went by their place around 10:00 pm but did not see anyone. I returned around 3:00 am because I knew he had to be at work at 4:30 am.
On cue, he left at 3:45 am but I did not see her. Her car was not in the garage or in the street.

Right now I don't have concrete proof this A is still going. Her comments about losing her best friend, etc. and the OM's BS conversations to me about how the OM is going to counseling etc. seem to indicate that it has cooled off, but this new "secret cell phone" makes me wonder. It could just be her way of knowing I can't track this new phone...yet.


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TC, glad to hear your update. Hang in there man. Look, on the bright side, you have OM's wife on your side. I hope you guys keep sharing some of the information to make sure the waywards know they are being watched....all the time.

About controlling. I think you got great advice. It is not controlling when you ask her "did you talk to the OM today ? If so, what did you talk about ?". Tell her YOU ARE TRYING TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE....If she thinks that is controlling....that is fine...By the way, say that with calm voice. Look her in the eye. No yelling, no angry outburts. I know it is easier said than done.

I have a question for you. Is there anyway you can get your wife to watch FIREPROOF with you ? My wife and I saw that couple of days ago. It is a 2 hr movie. Movie is absolutely stunning.

In the meantime, continue on your Plan A. Even if she leaves you, she will remember what a good husband (as the great Dr Harley said in his book) you could be.

Do you put a voice activate recorder in her car ? I think you get them cheap at Staples or one of those stores. Might be worth looking into.

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50/50 Day

Man, things can look so bad and then end on a better note.
This morning the eldest daughter figured out that her Mother (WW) didn't come home last night. Fell apart. Wanted to know where she was, and why was she doing this to us?
I wouldn't lie to her, but I honestly didn't know where she was (I tried to find out).
I text my WW and told here how it was ONE thing to destroy me, but now she was destroying the children, and I wouldn't stand for that. I waited and then text her that "Never mind, sorry for bugging you" because I figured she didn't care. She immediately text me back that she was sorry and she would call as soon as she had a break (remember, she works very early in a large metro airport).
She called as I was taking DD to school. When she asked to talk to DD, I handed her the cell and DD screamed "Why didn't you come home last night?" WW started in the Fog-speak "It's my business, etc. etc." DD hung up on her.
DD turned to me and said "Dad, why haven't you just kicked her a$$ out?" I let her slide on the language. "Because I still love her, and I want to work things out" I said.
"Why, she obviously doesn't love you or US!" she said.
I had to hold back the tears.
WW called after I had dropped the DD off at school. After a few minutes of tense debate, she informed me that it was none of my business where she was, blah blah blah. She then said, I need you to understand this, I am NOT COMING BACK TO YOU.
This didn't sink in. She told me she had to go but would call back in a short while. I continued on to the office.

About an hour later, she called again. Her voice was extremely calm and she was very direct. She told me that she was sorry about last evening, it was a mistake to stay out all night. She also said that she felt that she had to be blunt, but she wanted to make sure I knew that it was over. That she would not consider trying to save our marriage. Normally, I would have taken this as just a glitch, but her calm demeanor and directness in her voice made me think otherwise.

I felt it was time to throw in the towel.
I felt completely defeated. It was over, BUT at least I tried.
We had agreed to meet that afternoon to discuss a few details but I was pretty much out of it.

Needless to say, it was a long, miserable afternoon.

At 3:30 I meet her in a local park clubhouse where the children take advanced math classes. As I sat in the car with her, she said, you wanted to talk? At this point, I thought I might as well give her everything that was on my chest.
Remembering everyone's advice and comments, plus looking her in the eye and speaking in a low, clear voice, I told her EXACTLY HOW I FELT. AND WHY I WAS DOING WHAT I WAS DOING.
I don't remember everything I said, but she never said a word. She just looked at me. I talked for 45 minutes about why I snooped, why I wanted to break up her affair, what an affair REALLY was, how she was destroying the family, how she hurt the girls and me, why I felt that hurting them was the last straw. How I knew what went wrong, and how we could address them together.
She finally commented that she COULD have maybe agreed to trying to save our marriage until the day I went to the airport and confronted the OM and exposed the A to her colleagues. She said after that, she knew she could never forgive me.
I explained WHY I did it, to somehow shake her out of the fog of the fantasy A and see it for what it really was, an illusion of lies. She didn't understand, she said it just made her angry with me.
We cut the conversation off when the children arrived. I waited for the eldest DD and then went home. While in the kitchen, helping to prepare dinner, she came up along the side of me and said "I am really sorry. I believe I would have done the same thing if I was in your shoes."

You know, I still don't know where I stand. I'll take this as a little victory. We have agreed that she will stay until the children are out of school, and are working on a set of "Ground rules" for both of us. One of mine is NC, No Overnights, etc.

I don't know, maybe there still is a chance...
I plan to continue Plan A while she is still here. If anything, we have spoke more about our issues and problems in the last week or two than we have in the last 22 years.
I think that is a good thing.

I'll keep posting, thank you for all of your great advice.


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This morning I am optimistic. She left for the airport at her normal time, I didn't smell her perfume in the bathroom, I know this is weird, but she didn't floss her teeth. Before she had taken EXTRA care of her oral hygiene but hasn't gone that distance the last couple of days. Isn't strange what you pick up on?

As I crawled into our bed (we swap the couch/bed) I could smell her scent/ It was a good scent. It was very comforting.
I was able to sleep a little, unlike the last couple of weeks.

I know I'm not out of the woods, but after the intense pressure I've been under this little "high" is certainly appreciated. I need to formulate my Plan A strategy so I can hit the ground running this afternoon @ 110 percent.

If this A has really started to dissolve (as I believe it has) what can I do to start putting the ball in my court?
I am working really hard on my LB's.
I keep Mark's list in my pocket about Plan A.
I plan to use some of optin1's ideas as soon as I feel I can.
What else can I do?

I'd like to keep on this "high" if I can!

Thank you everyone!


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What can you do?

Pack all her clothes up, put the suitcases on the driveway, and change the locks. Leave a note on her suitcase that says "When you are ready to commit to No Contact with any other man, for the rest of our marriage, I MAY consider living in the same house with you. Until then, since it is YOU who is choosing a man outside your marriage, you can live outside our home."

Nothing else is going to wake her up. Yes, you can Plan A. But you don't have to accept her showing her children what an affair is in their own house.

I should add, everyone is going to jump on me for saying this, and if she wanted to stay, you can't do much legally, and it's harder to do Plan A when you're separated, but as it is, it looks like she has no respect for you. Why should she try to work on anything, when you're just a milquetoast and there's this hot exciting guy flirting with her? She needs to miss you or at least worry about losing you. JMO

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Originally Posted by TriggerCat
I'd like to keep on this "high" if I can!

What you are experiencing is known as "BH Fog", and it is just as damaging to making rational decisions, as any "WW Fog".

Your "high" IS NOT a good thing!!!

You are being UNREASONABLY optomistic based on the FACTS of your situation. You would be much better served by maintaining a CLEAR head about the REALITY of your circumstances.

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Originally Posted by TriggerCat
50/50 Day

Man, things can look so bad and then end on a better note.


TC, I know this is tough but you are doing great. The calm talk you had with her is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Originally Posted by TriggerCat
About an hour later, she called again. Her voice was extremely calm and she was very direct. She told me that she was sorry about last evening, it was a mistake to stay out all night. She also said that she felt that she had to be blunt, but she wanted to make sure I knew that it was over. That she would not consider trying to save our marriage. .


That is ok. I think I get it now. She thought she would do a "dress rehearsal" and see what it means to be out of the house overnight. She is right now very angry you busted her fairy tale love affair. Her thinking is totally irrational - which you would expect anyway from a wayward.


Originally Posted by TriggerCat
Normally, I would have taken this as just a glitch, but her calm demeanor and directness in her voice made me think otherwise. .


DO NOT over interpret. She is going through major turmoil in her life. She is experiencing wild swinging of emotions on daily basis. Just like you do. Some of these feelings change everyday. What you felt so strong about a week ago may not be the case anymore today. It is time to LEAD your heart and NOT follow it (not my line....lifted straight from the movie). You LEAD your heart by following Plan A.

Originally Posted by TriggerCat
At 3:30 I meet her in a local park clubhouse where the children take advanced math classes. As I sat in the car with her, she said, you wanted to talk? At this point, I thought I might as well give her everything that was on my chest.
Remembering everyone's advice and comments, plus looking her in the eye and speaking in a low, clear voice, I told her EXACTLY HOW I FELT. AND WHY I WAS DOING WHAT I WAS DOING.
I don't remember everything I said, but she never said a word. She just looked at me. I talked for 45 minutes about why I snooped, why I wanted to break up her affair, what an affair REALLY was, how she was destroying the family, how she hurt the girls and me, why I felt that hurting them was the last straw. How I knew what went wrong, and how we could address them together.
She finally commented that she COULD have maybe agreed to trying to save our marriage until the day I went to the airport and confronted the OM and exposed the A to her colleagues. She said after that, she knew she could never forgive me.
I explained WHY I did it, to somehow shake her out of the fog of the fantasy A and see it for what it really was, an illusion of lies. She didn't understand, she said it just made her angry with me.
We cut the conversation off when the children arrived. I waited for the eldest DD and then went home. While in the kitchen, helping to prepare dinner, she came up along the side of me and said "I am really sorry. I believe I would have done the same thing if I was in your shoes.".

ok, I am a realist but at the same time total optimist.I see nothing but POSITIVE in your narrative above.

Originally Posted by TriggerCat
You know, I still don't know where I stand. .

DONT worry about this man. No one going through what you are experiencing fully know where they stand. It takes plenty of time. 7 months later I still sometimes dont know where I stand. But looking back there were so many postives that it does not matter as long as you are trekking along.


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Thanks optin1, I needed a lift.

It's true that I do feel optimistic, but I also have a clear head. I know this war is FAR from over. I just needed to win a battle (little as it is) to keep myself motivated.

I see her attitude has wild swings now after I busted up the affair. She must be in withdrawal, it is so clear now. Her A was more an EA than PA, and you can see it in her actions. I also think she is finally feeling a bit of remorse. Let's hope so.

I need to keep looking at this from the "big picture" view and not try to analyze the details so much. It does appear to be easy to get fooled by her emotional swings into false hopes and such. If I keep looking at it from the "big picture", maybe I won't get caught in the ups and downs of her emotions...?

Regardless of the outcome, I have vowed to keep working my Plan A, and if she moves out: Plan B. "Cracks" in her defenses or not, any positive sign is encouragement for me to keep fighting.

Thanks everyone...

-TC


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they do vascillate. don't read too much into her words. do your MB best. you will be better off for trying your hardest - whether she comes around or not.

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cinderella,

That is what I'm afraid of. I'm already preparing myself mentally for the "less than positive" attitude I get from her this evening. I guess it's like a game of ping-pong; back and forth, good and bad. I'll just keep working for the good, good, good, better, better, best...?

-TC


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Update

Well, it's been a few days. and, as you all have predicted, her attitude has swung both ways. Not major swings, but little swings. Monday seemed like the end, but after our talk, I was a little encouraged. Tuesday came and she left in the morning without saying anything to me. Came home and avoided me, but later started some small talk with me. Actually told me "good night" last evening, and woke me up when she got up so I could sleep in our bed (we swap bed/couch time). Called me this morning and even though she didn't say a lot, it was the first time she called me "just to talk".

I know two of her EN's are Affection and Conversation. I'm trying to keep up the "non-committal" conversation because I know she loves just to talk. That is how we first met, talking for hours on the phone.

Affection is one place I'm trying but have missed the boat. I am a gift-giver, but I don't think that is working. I found a book that she wanted and left it in her car with a simple note. When she called this morning she did not say anything about the book until I asked, and she said "oh yes, thank you". Not exactly the response I expected, but it then dawned on me that maybe I'm trying to buy her heart...so I said, "well, I happened to see that book on the bargain rack at Barnes and Noble, it was only $6.97. That's why you have it."
THAT earned a positive response. Point learned, she doesn't want me to BUY HER STUFF, but appreciates me thinking of her, such as seeing a book she wants that is a great deal.

I'll got a LOT to learn. Man, I'd suck as a psychiatrist!

I'm continuing working the Plan. Like I said, I keep Mark's list in my pocket and read it several times during the day. optin1 and cinderella, I watch for the swings and keep myself on the steady path. I am more comfortable in my habits and my attitudes as I work on myself. I know I have a long way to go, but I think my "improved" behaviors are becoming "good habits". We'll see. I don't engage in any relationship discussions, just simple conversations, injecting humor as much as I can. I have been brainstorming ways to show affection WITHOUT going over the top. Any suggestions here would be appreciated! She still resists spending time with me. I don't think I've built up enough credits yet for that. I guess I'll just keep plugging along and see what unfolds...

Thank you everyone. Your help means more to me than I can express...


-TC


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Major Swing

Well, it's Friday, and this evening she is avoiding me like the plague! Answers my responses but nothing beyond that. Told my neighbor this evening when he asked if our pool was ready for the season, "I don't know, you should ask the owner".
How vile can you be?
She and DD9 went to the movies, didn't include me. I asked if I could go but she responded "I'd like to take DD9 alone".
Being the doormat really bites. This "negative swing" has lasted two days. I hope she starts swinging back the other way soon...

I did do something today that may account for her negative mood: I text her this morning. Just a simple text "Good Morning, Happy Friday, hope your day is going well".
Didn't hear back from her, so I assumed she was having a bad/busy day. Because we live fairly close to her work, and I take DD9 to school, I suggested to DD9 that we surprise Mommy with a treat because she sounded like she was having a bad day.
We left early, ran to the neighborhood StarBucks and got her an iced coffee, cream & two sweeteners. I ran DD9 up to the front of the Airport Terminal and instructed her to run in with the drink, hand it to her Mother, and tell her that "we" thought this might make her morning seem brighter.
So, we dropped it off without a hitch. DD9 came back to the car and said her Mother said thank you, and that was it.
Didn't hear anything from her all day. Guess she didn't like the gesture.

This putting forth all this effort for nothing is getting tougher and tougher each day...


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That's because you have barely done anything to stop the affair. Did you call EVERYONE in her family and friends to tell them what she is doing? Did you go to her BOSS (not her coworkers) and tell them what is going on? Did you hire the PI to follow her?

No.

That's why you are getting treated like sh*t. You're too afraid to get mad and protect your marriage.

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Originally Posted by TriggerCat
DD9 came back to the car and said her Mother said thank you, and that was it.
Didn't hear anything from her all day. Guess she didn't like the gesture...

She thought you were checking on her ? Possibly and may explain why she may have been so aloof.

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TC, I know both your wife and OM still work together and that makes very difficult for recovery to get jump started. But I still believe if you stick to your Plan A and the fact that the affair is now out in the open, continue to work on yourself, and with your daughters....and give it your BEST attempt...there is a chance...

Just remind yourself...progress is counted in MONTHS..not days or weeks. Again, I am not trying to raise any false hopes.

Your comment about being a doormat. I felt that way in the beginning...a lot. What she needs to realise (and this may take sometime) is that you are a good husband and a good father. You are willing to learn and change yourself to become even a better person through Plan A. BUT at the same time, you will NOT tolerate any more of her contact with OM. I still encourage you to set some time with her to talk about anything. Avoid difficult subjects in the beginning.

I meant to tell you this. I understand meeting her needs is important but very difficult to follow through when she completely shut you down. I would say then pick three things she always wished you did for her. flowers ? washing dishes after dinner ? take the trash out ?

Last edited by optin1; 05/16/09 02:45 AM.
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catperson,

I have done this. Her family knows, my family knows, our friends know, her Boss knows, HIS wife knows, HIS family knows. I know things at her work are tense because their co-workers now know.
I'm not sure yet what is happening to her schedule but I know her scheduled days have changed since this all went down.
She works days that he doesn't. Still not 100%, but a little progress.
I am mad. I DO WANT TO SAVE MY MARRIAGE. What I think am fighting is her checking out of our marriage. The other half of the "fog-think"...you know, "our marriage was failing before I met the OM blah blah blah". She still seems determined to leave.
I don't disagree with you, I understand if I can get total NC that will take away a lot of the issues. I didn't want jobs lost but I guess that is what I have to do...


Ever has it been that love knows not its own depth until the hour of separation.
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optin1,

Yeah, I think you're right. She has'nt normally been scheduled Friday, so she probably did think I was checking up on her...and using the little one to do the dirty work.

Guess that back-fired on me, huh?

Honesty, it wasn't my intention, but I can see now why she might take it that way.


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optin1,

Thanks for your help. I think you and I were cut from the same cloth.

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TC, I know both your wife and OM still work together and that makes very difficult for recovery to get jump started.
I'm going to have to do more work here...guess my initial conversation with her Boss didn't get the point across.

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Just remind yourself...progress is counted in MONTHS..not days or weeks. Again, I am not trying to raise any false hopes.
Yeah, I keep having to remind myself that. I know nothing is certain, but I keep sticking to the Plan. I need DAILY reminders that progress, if any, is SLOW.

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I meant to tell you this. I understand meeting her needs is important but very difficult to follow through when she completely shut you down. I would say then pick three things she always wished you did for her. flowers ? washing dishes after dinner ? take the trash out ?
Well, I already do those things: gifts, trash, dishes, etc. No effect, or it back-fires. What she was missing from me fell into the emotional side...treating her like an equal, not talking down to her, not controlling her. I guess I just had been taking her for granted, and making her feel like a prisoner in her own home.
I'm TRYING to correct these habits, and I constantly think before I open my mouth, making sure I don't convey ANY of these bad habits...but it doesn't seem to have taken effect.
I don't question little things I normally would have, I act pleasant and upbeat (even when she is short with me). I keep myself busy at home, doing chores and not hanging over her.
I don't know, she is just locked in this mindset of "it's over, and I won't change my mind".
In our Monday talk, where I actually heard a little bit of encouraging talk, one of the things she said was "how could you ever forgive me" and "there would always be this black spot in the back of your mind of what I've done to you...how could you live with that?"
Could these be affecting her? Has she convinced herself that what she has done is so bad that she thinks I never could forgive her? Or am I totally missing it?


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Originally Posted by TriggerCat
she said was "how could you ever forgive me" and "there would always be this black spot in the back of your mind of what I've done to you...how could you live with that?"
Could these be affecting her? Has she convinced herself that what she has done is so bad that she thinks I never could forgive her? Or am I totally missing it?

I will reply later on in detail but that is EXACTLY what you want to hear. She is stunned and is coming to realisation the depth of damage she has caused. Dont worry about forgiveness for now. (i mean you forgiving her...you probably did or very close to doing it...it took me about 3 months to actually open up and tell her that I had forgiven my wife....BUT remember it is a process not a standalone decision...more on that later).


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