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I am a HUGE advocate of behavioral changes to improve one's outlook on life and to increase one's own value to self and to others.
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Hi Pep – have you always had good self-respect (high esteem)?
“I think this phrase has just become a hockey-puck ... thrown out on the ice and hit about”
As an English teacher who loves words, I have to admit that “self-esteem” has been tossed around enough to have many meanings and, at the same time, have no meaning by now.
“self RESPECT requires a reverence for doing what is ~right~
for doing what is difficult
for bringing HONOR to our own world
for meeting our obligations
self esteem gets all bound up with feelings ....
RESPECT is the key”
Devil’s advocate here – the above seems like a bit of oversimplification (even with the words changed to “self-respect”).
Julie2U mentioned effed up childhood...
Growing up, my sister (who is a clinical psychologist and counsels abused children) and I were berated for everything we did, right or wrong. We weren’t allowed to speak or have opinions (we were slapped if we spoke, sometimes kicked, even had hot coffee poured on us). After we finally left home, certain family members continued to ridicule us for every action or opinion.
She and I were speaking recently and were surprised to discover that we both (in our 50’s) have not been able to feel better about ourselves, no matter how many successes we achieve in life, school, or work. Inside, we still feel like 5 year olds being kicked.
We have both had years of therapy, been on various meds, we’re both Christians and have spent our lives soul-searching and studying spirituality. Nothing has changed the way we really feel about ourselves.
I’m not blaming low self-esteem for my A (although it was obviously a good example of a lack of self-respect), but feeling like garbage about myself did make the attention and “flattery” appealing.
Mostly what I’m saying, though, is that it isn’t necessarily as simple as “doing the right thing,” or wearing “big-girl panties” to gain self-esteem or self-respect.
Peace-
Rose I disagree. I had a much worse childhood than you. Much worse. My problem was that I played tapes of LIES about myself in my head: "you are so stupid" "you are WORTHLESS!!" all of the lies I was told as a girl. So I asked myself one day: izzat true, Beevus? Are you stupid? no, i am not the brightest bulb in the tree, but I am halfway smart Are you "WORTHLESS?" sometimes I can be, but largely no Well, the more I thought about it, the more i realized those things were not true. So I decided to reject them and move onto to a more realistic model. I call this reality testing. Instead of allowing tapes in my head or other people to DEFINE me, I choose to rely on the lady in the mirror using a model of REALITY instead of SICK EMOTIONS. She had a better idea of my REAL WORTH, so I chose instead to go along with that model. Now, does that mean I feel good about myself all the time? Hell no. Sometimes I let her down so I take a CORRECTIVE action and stop doing the thing that disappoints the lady in the mirror. The lady in the mirror takes her game plan from God. And when God is happy, the lady in the mirror is happy. Shame and guilt are my friends that keep me on the right path with my conscience. Please understand that you are only a slave to your childhood if you volunteer to be a slave. It is your choice. As an adult, we are responsible for our lives. Our parents are no longer responsible after age 18. If I CHOOSE to live like an emotional cripple, then shame on me. I figured this out years ago, but my sister claims to have got enormous relief from the book by Dr Laura Bad Childhood, Good Adulthood. My motto: the buck stops with the lady in the mirror
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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...and that mirror is very powerful! (No longer scary!!)
Mel: do you know of any good books for kids? On the subject of self-love/self-respect? DD (3 days to TEENhood) could REALLY use one - she's always reading. She's got IC & me, but it ain't enough. She needs a manual & Chicken Soup for the Teen Soul only scratches the surface. Whaddyathink??
LIFE IS GOOD
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p.s. I spent so much time in "counseling" yapping about my childhood in my 20s and 30s that I should be charged carbon emissions taxes for that all that hot air I emitted. The only one who ever benefited from it was the counselor who was taking my money to listen to me bloviate.
The only thing that actually changed me was a personal decision to CHANGE. Once I changed..............I changed. I feel good in my own skin today and when I don't there is usually a good reason. I find out the reason and quit doing the thing that is impairing my self respect.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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...and that mirror is very powerful! (No longer scary!!)
Mel: do you know of any good books for kids? On the subject of self-love/self-respect? DD (3 days to TEENhood) could REALLY use one - she's always reading. She's got IC & me, but it ain't enough. She needs a manual & Chicken Soup for the Teen Soul only scratches the surface. Whaddyathink?? I think you would be the best source, Julie, since you have been through this. I would educate her on the pitfalls of getting her approval outside of herself. And teach her that self respect is fostered by acting with RESPECT within the confines of her conscience.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Hi Pep – have you always had good self-respect (high esteem)?
“I think this phrase has just become a hockey-puck ... thrown out on the ice and hit about”
As an English teacher who loves words, I have to admit that “self-esteem” has been tossed around enough to have many meanings and, at the same time, have no meaning by now.
“self RESPECT requires a reverence for doing what is ~right~
for doing what is difficult
for bringing HONOR to our own world
for meeting our obligations
self esteem gets all bound up with feelings ....
RESPECT is the key”
Devil’s advocate here – the above seems like a bit of oversimplification (even with the words changed to “self-respect”).
Julie2U mentioned effed up childhood...
Growing up, my sister (who is a clinical psychologist and counsels abused children) and I were berated for everything we did, right or wrong. We weren’t allowed to speak or have opinions (we were slapped if we spoke, sometimes kicked, even had hot coffee poured on us). After we finally left home, certain family members continued to ridicule us for every action or opinion.
She and I were speaking recently and were surprised to discover that we both (in our 50’s) have not been able to feel better about ourselves, no matter how many successes we achieve in life, school, or work. Inside, we still feel like 5 year olds being kicked.
We have both had years of therapy, been on various meds, we’re both Christians and have spent our lives soul-searching and studying spirituality. Nothing has changed the way we really feel about ourselves.
I’m not blaming low self-esteem for my A (although it was obviously a good example of a lack of self-respect), but feeling like garbage about myself did make the attention and “flattery” appealing.
Mostly what I’m saying, though, is that it isn’t necessarily as simple as “doing the right thing,” or wearing “big-girl panties” to gain self-esteem or self-respect.
Peace-
Rose Good for you! IAT! How DARE you go against popular opinion-- even if you have a good reasoning.  P.S. You not only have to consider behaviors, but at the belief set behind where those behaviors are stemming from. If you do not change that, there is a 0% chance that good changes can help. Quite a few MB pholosophies are based on self image/respect/identity- they just don't use those specific words.
Me; W 46
Him; H 46
2 girls
DD19
DD16
Dated/Married total 28 years.
..I am learning and working on myself.
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She and I were speaking recently and were surprised to discover that we both (in our 50’s) have not been able to feel better about ourselves, no matter how many successes we achieve in life, school, or work. Inside, we still feel like 5 year olds being kicked. Because self esteem doesn't come from successes or accomplishments. Self-esteem just is. You have worth because you are you. Most people mistakenly derive their self-esteem from what they have done, what they have, or what others around them have done. It doesn't work. If you derive your self-esteem from what you have accomplished, you will never sustain a high self-esteem because someone will always come along and beat you. If you derive it from what you have, someone will always show up with more. If you derive it from what others around you have done (kids, husband) then eventually someone will come along and best them. I have value because I have value. When a person says they seek the approval of others to feel good about themselves. I always want to ask 1) Why do you consider other people's approval a success. 2) Why did you decide to only like yourself if you are successful?
Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
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I’m wondering if self-esteem (and/or self-respect) is something that is (or can be) taught (at least partly) to children, either with words or by example. I was not taught that I had value. Can self-respect be learned by being respected - especially in the formative years?
Last edited by Rose55; 04/30/09 12:08 PM.
FWS-me
BS-H
Dday-8/2002
Recovering, still!
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I’m wondering if self-esteem (and/or self-respect) is something that is (or can be) taught (at least partly) to children, either with words or by example. I believe how to ACHIEVE it can certainly be taught. I also believe it is very harmful to children, and sets them up for failure and for it to be a self-fulfilling prophecy when an ADULT is always complaining about low self-esteem (actually self-respect...those with low self-esteem have EARNED it by their poor choices, I don't care WHAT has happened in their lives). We ALL have the choice to have high self-esteem THROUGH having self-respect. <I haven't read this whole thread so if this has been said ad nauseum, forgive me.>
Me,BW - 42; FWH-46 4 kids D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006 D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR) Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007 In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. 
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Hi barbiecat -
What's IAT?
FWS-me
BS-H
Dday-8/2002
Recovering, still!
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I’m wondering if self-esteem (and/or self-respect) is something that is (or can be) taught (at least partly) to children, either with words or by example. I was not taught that I had value. Can self-respect be learned by being respected - especially in the formative years? Rose, my suggestion would be to look in the PRESENT for a solution rather in the past and stop looking outside of yourself. Focusing on the past will not help you change the present. It is just a diversion that you ALREADY KNOW does not work. Children who are abused CAN learn to respect themselves as an ADULT. They do it all the time every day. Adults can and do learn every day to stop the childish practice of looking outside of themselves for approval. It is all a matter of CHOICE.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Hi marriedforever
"We ALL have the choice to have high self-esteem THROUGH having self-respect."
I'll ask you the same question I asked Pep - have you always had high self-esteem/respect?
The reason I ask is that I'm thinking it is easy for someone to insist that this is true if he/she hasn't been raised NOT to respect or value himself/herself.
In any case, it's easier said than done...
FWS-me
BS-H
Dday-8/2002
Recovering, still!
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Children who are abused CAN learn to respect themselves as an ADULT. They do it all the time every day. Adults can and do learn every day to stop the childish practice of looking outside of themselves for approval.
It is all a matter of CHOICE. ITA, could not have been better said.
Me,BW - 42; FWH-46 4 kids D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006 D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR) Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007 In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks.
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Hi MelodyLane -
"Children who are abused CAN learn to respect themselves as an ADULT. They do it all the time every day. Adults can and do learn every day to stop the childish practice of looking outside of themselves for approval."
I have met adults who say they have learned to respect themselves, but their behavior seems otherwise, so I'm dubious.
I will have to think more about what you've written, though. Right now, I've gotta run...
Thanx
Rose
FWS-me
BS-H
Dday-8/2002
Recovering, still!
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The reason I ask is that I'm thinking it is easy for someone to insist that this is true if he/she hasn't been raised NOT to respect or value himself/herself.
In any case, it's easier said than done... Rose, did you read my post? I was horribly abused as a child and was not raised to value or respect myself. I have self respect and high self esteem today and have for years. So do many, many others. using your childhood is no excuse to neglect developing self respect as an adult. That is just an excuse. The buck stops with you. You are way past the age where you can get away with blaming your parents for your state of mind. In any case, it's easier said than done... Isn't EVERYTHING easier said than done? Do you only do things if they are easy?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Hi marriedforever
"We ALL have the choice to have high self-esteem THROUGH having self-respect."
I'll ask you the same question I asked Pep - have you always had high self-esteem/respect?
The reason I ask is that I'm thinking it is easy for someone to insist that this is true if he/she hasn't been raised NOT to respect or value himself/herself.
In any case, it's easier said than done... I would say yes, I have. For awhile after FWH's A, I thought my self-esteem was shot and I was complaining that his A did that to me. Now I know that isn't really the truth...I have acted like a self-respecting, honorable woman throughout this whole ordeal. I have no REASON to have low-esteem. I have not done anything non-esteemable (is that a word???  ). Now...my H has also said that his self-esteem has been shot throughout this ordeal, and that makes sense because he did NOT act self-respecting when he had an A. However, I have not heard him say this in a long, long time...and I believe that is because he is working SO, SO, SO hard at earning his self-respect back. He is a better husband and father than he has ever been, and he is EARNING his self-respect back. How were you raised to NOT have self-respect? I don't understand this.
Me,BW - 42; FWH-46 4 kids D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006 D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR) Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007 In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks.
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I have met adults who say they have learned to respect themselves, but their behavior seems otherwise, so I'm dubious.
Rose Could you be using this an excuse to not change yourself? Wouldn't it make more sense to look to those who have been successful?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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P.S. You not only have to consider behaviors, but at the belief set behind where those behaviors are stemming from. Can't say I entirely agree with this. A belief change (insight) often hapens AFTER the behavioral correction.
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Please understand that you are only a slave to your childhood if you volunteer to be a slave. It is your choice. 
Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists. Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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[P.S. You not only have to consider behaviors, but at the belief set behind where those behaviors are stemming from. If you do not change that, there is a 0% chance that good changes can help. Not true at all. Feelings FOLLOW ACTIONS, not the other way around. I did not start respecting myself UNTIL I started ACTING in respectful ways. I did not ESTEEM myself until I ACTED in ways that were ESTEEMABLE.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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