Me = July 7

You?

I've managed to totter to the keyboard long enough to respond to this. You're all just young'ns!

tl

sexymamabear -

"I'm not quite sure how you got guilt out of that."

I was thinking that you could feel guilty because you wrote that feeling like you had no value meant you were slapping Christ in the face.

I do understand what you're saying. It's just that I can't help thinking Christ died because of who He is, not because of who we are, so it's hard for me to use that to help my self-esteem. It's not that I don't understand Christ loved us so much he died for us, which "should" make us feel valuable.

Ironically, it's knowing I don't deserve Christ's love that can make me not feel valuable.

I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to explain what I was thinking.

"Me = July 7 - You?"

July 29 - you're still older than I am. LOL.

"I've managed to totter to the keyboard long enough to respond to this. You're all just young'ns!"

LOL.

While I believe that my self-esteem is in good shape, I have found out this year going to college to get my business management degree, is that I lack self-confidence, and this makes it hard for me to take the initiative.

I am getting pretty angry about it.

I have great grades, my teachers all think I have awesome ideas and that I will do well IF I gain some self-confidence.

Why would it be that I lack the confidence I need to be able to succeed?

Well, it does have something to do with having people in your life that put you down and argue with every idea you have. With having superiors (bosses) at work that don't trust you because THEY are dishonest. And I've let them win up to this time.

It puts you on the negative side.

At least I am realizing what is happening and getting angry, NOT acting out, and will have to make some hard decisions soon about who is HEALTHY for me to be around. My husband has a penchant for male friends who are misogynists.

It's really complicated.

That being said, I don't believe that the Lord wants you to feel unworthy. If you feel that way then you are listening to Satan. The prince of darkness is the one who wants to make you feel bad about yourself. There is Godly guilt when you are sinning, but if you stop it, ask for forgiveness, and are tormented, then THAT is the devil talkin'. Why would you beat yourself up for something you did when you were, say, 12?

For you, Rose, you are precious, and WORTHY. Don't hang out with the ones who put you down, even if they are family. Do your best to stay away from negative people who put you down.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Actually, to the contrary, Narcissists are not in love with themselves, they usually have poor self-esteem, what they love is the image they project or the construct they have built, which can be ever-changing. See "Malignant Self-Love: Narcissism Revisited"

My observation is that if one does the RIGHT things, it makes one feel better about themselves. However, a Narcissist is an altogether different case, much more complex than just that, something very severe and wrong has gone on in them, something they cannot help and are powerless to change...no fun to be one, no fun to be around one!

We can CHOOSE to learn and change. I came from a bad background too but I am learning to value myself without basing it on feedback from a man or anyone else. I'm sorry therapy hasn't worked for you but we have to move from just learning about something to actually implementing it or it does us no good.

Rose, I'm going to put some more thought into your last post before I respond to it.

But I wanted to ask you what leads you to believe you have low "self-esteem"? What feelings, thoughts, etc. bring you to that conclusion?

MarriedForever

“How were you raised to NOT have self-respect? I don't understand this.”

My mother pretty much made sure we didn’t have any self-respect or self-esteem by telling us we were wrong about everything, that we could never make good decisions by ourselves, that we couldn’t possibly ever do the right thing, and then slapping the youknowwhattie out of us if we tried to say anything. That’s just the tip of the iceberg. You would have had to have been there to understand, I guess. When I talked to her about it a few years ago, she said she didn’t want us “to be vain.” We’re not, btw.

Vows4good –

“For you, Rose, you are precious, and WORTHY. Don't hang out with the ones who put you down, even if they are family. Do your best to stay away from negative people who put you down.”

Thanks - good idea! I know what you mean about bosses and self-confidence, too. I wonder how closely tied self-confidence, self-esteem, and self-respect are...if we need one to get the other two...

MelodyLane –

“Check out Dr Lauras book: Bad Childhood, Good Adulthood.” Thanks for the tip – I will check it out.

sexymamabear –

“Read Lucado's book. Stars and dots. It's all about them not sticking. (won't make sense until you read the book)”

I like Lucado – I’ll look for the book. Thanks.

"what leads you to believe you have low "self-esteem"? "

Interesting, I never thought about that before. Maybe I am equating self-esteem with self-confidence, or could they go together? I feel small, inadequate, and incapable, even though I know that I am none of those things, which I have proved over and over.

Miss M mentioned supervisors (bosses)...I really have trouble gaining respect from them because I'm very easily intimidated. When I'm around aggressive people (especially women), I can clam up and become suddenly mute and unable to defend myself. I have been known to hide in the stairwell and cry (at a job I eventually quit - it was not a teaching position). I have improved at subsequent jobs, but I am still very easily intimidated - not good for a teacher. It makes it very hard to function anywhere, really. No one respects someone who doesn't respect herself.

I really wonder if people have to be taught to stick up for themselves, and those who are able to do it believe it comes naturally, but don't realize they were either told they could do it, or were shown how by example. Being able to take care of oneself and having good self-esteem are the same thing to me, I think.

I feel you here, Miss M. Completely, totally, definitely. I just wonder...if my self esteem is okay, how did my self confidence get so darn bad?

LOL, an old thread but one that leapt out at me.

I don't even think my low self esteem had ANYTHING whatsoever to do with my A.

It's so easy for people who have high self esteem to pooh pooh the idea that there is such a thing as low self esteem. My mother just DOES NOT understand why I put myself down. It has nothing to do with self respect. I respect myself - I just don't think I ever make the grade.

I was brought up in a family where my sister and I were loved, accepted and taught we could do anything.

However, my sister made sure I always felt stupid. She made it her life's work. I said the wrong things, I did the wrong things - according to her I was just all round pretty useless and stupid. My parents didn't mean to but they added to it. Your sister is so smart, your sister has the brains. Your sister doesn't need to work to get good grades - but it's okay, you're pretty. Yes, really. That's what I grew up with.

When I was in my 30s I was talking to a friend and I said how useless I was at everything (patently untrue but that's how I see it) and how good my sister was at everything. She said, "to be honest, I don't think your sister is all that." It was the first time I'd ever seen myself as having worth.

Criticism wounds me to the core. It reinforces what I think about myself.

This leapt out at me. It strikes me as being very true. As Jen described, the flattening process happens at an age where you have no defences against it, and stops you from growing the emotional muscle that 'naturally' self-confident people seem to have.

My mother has always pursued a 'scorched-earth' policy on close family - she is relentlessly and ruthlessly scathing about everyone else's judgement, tastes, opinions, decisions and actions. The only person who has The Right Answer is her. If any family member even attempted to pursue a path that she didn't agree with, she would sweep them aside and 'manage' the situation for them, making it clear that she had to do this because of their own incompetence. Resistance turned into nuclear war. I was thrown out of the house on several occasions for saying 'But...'. (Mother: 'I will not have CHEEK! I will not you and your lip in this house!' I was the world's quietest child.)

Her own parents and unmarried sister crept around her, trying to hold onto little bits of autonomy without being found out. The sister ended up dead of cancer because my mother interpreted her symptoms as stress and dismissed them as unimportant - and my mother's word was law. It was easier to die than to disobey Mother and see the doctor.

My mother could not allow any member of the family to show the faintest degree of self-assertion; the punishment (rage, sneering, insults) would go on for weeks. I grew up believing I was academically bright (there was obvious evidence for this), but had no adult competence and was of very little value to the adult world.

When I had the temerity to raise the issue a few years ago (she uncharacteristically asked if I had any 'hangups' about childhood), she threw a huge tantrum and broke off all contact for over two years.

It beats me how parents can do so much damage and apparently be unaware of it.

TA

If Mr Kiwi is a smart man (I am sure he is) it makes sense that he might gradually become more and more passive and resistant to voicing any complaints about you. Radical honesty must be compromised in order not to wound his wife.

What are your thoughts about my comments?

I am sure they are aware of it.

I think sometimes parents are aware.

Any other reasons other than selfishness?

I tend to think people who suggest that are correct in that many people do earn their self-esteem from their accomplisments. I think it would incorrect to say that they should earn their self-esteem from their accomplisments. That is not to say one should not be proud of their accomplishments or regret their mistakes. If you are proud of your accomplishments, be proud of them. It's saying that one's self worth should be independent of those things and should be constant. It's saying you are valuable regardless of whether you are a terrific student or not.

IMHO, people who want strong self-esteem need to view it that way is because achievement based self-esteem is notoriously volatile and unsustainable. There are a few of reasons for that.

First, even highly successfel people only succeed marginally more than they fail. For example, if and "A" & "B" student considers getting an "A" a success in a class and a "B" a failure, the student with a 3.6GPA ends up in the top 10% of his class, (a huge success), yet they felt they failed almost half the time.

Second, our failures always hurt us more than our success makes us feel good. There are some biological reasons for that, but in the end, it results in the fact we remember our failures more acutely and for longer than our successes. Couple that with the first point and this is how many successful people, "feel" like failures. A student with 11 "A's" and "10 B's" is more likey to remember the 10 "B's".

Third, both success and failures are fleeting. (Although failures tend to hang around longer) Meaning even the greatest of successes fail to sustain us over a long period of time. For example, the good grades's must be followed by a good job, promotion, etc, or for many, the success of the school work becomes invalidated.

Fourth, try as we might, we can't achieve a 100% success rate. We simply do not control all the variables. If success is straight "A's" what does one do when confronted with the teacher who proclaims "I do not give any A's."

Finally, even if we did achieve a 100% success rate, we can't sustain it. We age, we lose skills, the competition gets stronger.

IMHO, all this works together so that if you are a person who derives their self-esteem from their accomplishments, you are always chasing your self-esteem. Occassionally you capture it, but it slips away and must be chased again. Never caught or owned. This is the classic, "I'm very successful, but I have low self-esteem."

Unfortunately, I think all too many parents, perhaps inadvertently, raise their kids this way. They are good children when they succeed, bad children when they fail. The child feels bad about themselves because nothing they ever did was good enough.

Most of the above also holds true if you base your self-esteem on your possessions or other's accomplishments.

The only tool or technique to break out of that habit is just to realize one has value because they have value.

Yes, Mr Kiwi is a very smart man. No, he has no trouble voicing complaints about me. He's also a very sensitive man and knows exactly how to voice any criticims without wounding me. Yes, sometimes I take offence or get upset but it's different when it comes from him - it doesn't wound me.

Why do I put myself down? Because I've always felt out of step with other people. Things (usually practical things not cerebral things) that seem very easy for others are difficult for me. Then my inner voice says "that's because you're so stupid". When I fail the inner voice says "well, of course you're going to fail - you're stupid". I have made HUGE strides with my self esteem in the last few years. I have a job now where I fit in (lol at a University where everyone is a bit odd and out of step with others) and I care very much about my job. I also understand it which makes me good at it. Friends actually said to me when I got my job - "that will be such a good place for you." Except my sister, of course, who said I'd become even nuttier in the University environment.

Getting back to my mother. She has told me that I'm obviously smart and good at things and she can't understand why I can't see it. But, I've learned to appreciate and value what I'm good at and what is good about my personality.

Getting all this out has been good. It's made me realise I don't need to be stuck in "I have low self esteem", it's up to me to get over what happened in the past and move forward, appreciating all that is good about me.

ETA staff reviews are TORTURE for me. I dread them like going to the dentist. The last few years though my reviews have been very good and I've started to relax about them. Thinking about all this, it's probably more a "personality" issue than a "self esteem" issue.