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The person I married was the most loving and lovable person I ever met. She had a childlike joy that was rare. She still has that rare quality, but sadly it is often hidden behind her depression and abuse.

I still love her deeply but looking back over the past few years I mostly remember lots of unhappiness on her part. Lots of yelling and lots of depression.

We have been married for close to a decade, she had her affair a couple of years ago and confessed it to me.

My experience is that no matter how hard I try, how many of her rules I follow, I am still not good enough.

But really I think the root of the matter is that she is just unhappy with her life; her self. And she projects her unhappiness onto me. As long as I am with her, then she cannot will not look at herself to make the real changes that need to be made.

At this point I believe that a formal separation (Plan B) is the right way to go but that seems like such a huge step towards divorce. Which is something that is off the table for me.

ugh.

Last edited by stuffless; 07/21/08 01:20 PM.

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As long as I am with her, then she cannot will not look at herself to make the real changes that need to be made.

Plan B is in order.

Instead of being a step towards divorce...it is most likely your best option for saving this marriage.

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Stuffless, both you and your wife (hoping heart/toosadtosmile) seem to post very similarly. Each of you concentrates on what the other needs to change rather than on what you can change.

You mention your wife's depression and abuse. What about the part your parents have played in your marriage? What about the enormous debt that you have? I could go on. Might these issues factor in to your wife's happiness? There are a lot of variables at play.

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My experience is that no matter how hard I try, how many of her rules I follow, I am still not good enough.

Can you give an example of something that you tried to do but it wasn't good enough for your wife? Blanket statements are not helpful; they are just like your wife's "always" and "never". Specifics are much better. Specifics you can address.

Plan B is not a formal separation. It is much more than that. Plan B is used when a spouse is in an affair and refuses to leave the affair partner. The betrayed spouse cuts off all contact with the wayward spouse; important dealings are left to an intermediary. In your case the formal separation is just the first step to a divorce. That is not Plan B.

If a divorce is not what you want (and it doesn't seem to be what your wife wants either), rather than ask people here what they think you should do, have you given any thought to calling the Harleys?

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Each of you concentrates on what the other needs to change rather than on what you can change.

You are right. I didn't realize this until you pointed it out. As I sit here thinking of additional ways that I can change, I cannot pinpoint any. (lame right?) My wife is very passionate about making our relationship better. It has been a consistent theme since we first married. It has been my experience that I have been 100% willing to mold and change to conform to her suggestions and wishes. I do not believe that she sees, or more accurately acknowledges the changes I have made, but I assure you that I have worked very hard at it.

I decided to separate a couple weeks ago when I found myself so bitter that I did not care anymore to try to change. I believe this attitude is poisonous to a healthy marriage.

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What about the part your parents have played in your marriage? What about the enormous debt that you have? I could go on.


Parents:
My parents were in a bad situation (yes that they brought upon themselves). They were homeless, and both HH and I believed and agreed through MC that it was right to take them into our home. Going into it we knew that it was going to be a sacrifice and not a good situation. For at least the past year we have made all major decisions under the policy of joint agreement. No money or help has been given to my parents unless jointly agreed. I grew up with alcoholic parents, and only recently have I started to learn how much of a lasting effect that has had on me. I do have co-depedent tendencies that I try to keep in check. I believe that I am doing a decent job at it. For example, yesterday my father was put into jail as a result of a warrant on his record. He is still in jail today and I do not plan to bail him out. My heart goes out to him and I feel terrible for him, but I do not believe bailing him out right now is the right thing to do.

Debt: We have a lot of debt as compared to most people. (close to $500k - $200k of which is owed to the IRS) But related to our assets, our debt load is quite low. Last year we almost sold one of our businesses for 50x our total debt. I am a young entrepreneur and it is not uncommon for people on my business path to be asset rich, cash poor, and with a lot of debt. Obviously we did not have a lot of financial support from my parents while we were getting started in life. I chose to jump start my business career through debt. There was not a lot of other options and I don't think I would do it differently now.

Now I would never diminish the negative impact that this career path (and debt) has had on HH and our marriage. Divorce is very high amongst CEO's. HH is incredibly adept at handling financial pressure, probably more so than 99 out of 100 other wives would be. However, I know that the financial pressure has often times been too great for her. Our situation is scary; no other way to look at it, but it is a path that we both chose together. We both agreed that the potential for good that we could do with the money that we might earn was worth the sacrifice and risk.

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Can you give an example of something that you tried to do but it wasn't good enough for your wife?

I now usually work no more than 40 hours per week, but it wasn't always that way. Early in our marriage I often worked 80 plus hour weeks. I learned that working that much was not okay with HH. Recently we moved out of state to a situation where I worked from home, had no friends, (didn't even have a car). We went on a date pretty much every day. We did this in part because she felt I wasn't spending the time necessary on the relationship. Pretty much the only thing I did while living in this state was run most days and play basketball 1-2x per week. Those two, otherwise healthy activities became her obsession.

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Plan B is not a formal separation... have you given any thought to calling the Harleys?

I don't know what the heck I am doing. wink I am very tenacious, but I needed to get out of the house. Our relationship has gotten so bad that every time I am around HH my back/shoulders tense up so bad that I am debilatated to the point that I cannot even work. When I am away for more than 12 hours, I am fine.

I have requested HH to set up MC with counselors of her choice. (she is unhappy with the last psychiatrist that we saw) I do not feel safe talking with her outside of that structured environment. She, so far, has been unwilling to do this.


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Plan B is in order.

Instead of being a step towards divorce...it is most likely your best option for saving this marriage.

As you have seen the drama unfold, that is precisely where we are at. Who knows if it is the best option for saving this marriage.

One of the big questions I ask myself right now is: Is HH unhappy because of me or my contributions to the relationship, or independently of me. In other words, if I was out of her life would she be happy/happier. If she would be happier if I left then am I holding marriage as a sacred cow. I believe we are here to serve God first. I wonder if we are serving him by staying in a marriage where we are both unhappy?

We did this thing, during our initial go at MC after DD, where the counselor asked us to rate our happiness on a 1-5 scale during every six month period of our marriage. HH's graph stayed in the 1 & 2 level throughout almost all of our marriage. (5 being the happiest)

What is the point if HH has never been happy?


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$200,000. debt to the IRS???????? YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by stuffless
As I sit here thinking of additional ways that I can change, I cannot pinpoint any. (lame right?)

Not lame. But not exactly insightful either.

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My parents were in a bad situation (yes that they brought upon themselves). They were homeless, and both HH and I believed and agreed through MC that it was right to take them into our home. Going into it we knew that it was going to be a sacrifice and not a good situation.

Do you see a contradiction in terms here? How can something be both "right" and "a sacrifice and not a good situation"?

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For at least the past year we have made all major decisions under the policy of joint agreement. No money or help has been given to my parents unless jointly agreed.

So, is this one way in which you have changed your behavior? Offering to use POJA with regard to your parents?

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I grew up with alcoholic parents, and only recently have I started to learn how much of a lasting effect that has had on me. I do have co-depedent tendencies that I try to keep in check. I believe that I am doing a decent job at it. For example, yesterday my father was put into jail as a result of a warrant on his record. He is still in jail today and I do not plan to bail him out. My heart goes out to him and I feel terrible for him, but I do not believe bailing him out right now is the right thing to do.

I think this is correct. In fact, I would say that it is in your best interest to stay away from your father altogether. The co-dependent tendencies, I believe, extend further than your father.

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We have a lot of debt as compared to most people. (close to $500k - $200k of which is owed to the IRS) But related to our assets, our debt load is quite low. Last year we almost sold one of our businesses for 50x our total debt. I am a young entrepreneur and it is not uncommon for people on my business path to be asset rich, cash poor, and with a lot of debt.

I'm not going to get into my own education here, other than to say that I enjoyed finance classes and did very well in them. Assets are one thing; liquid assets are another. "Almost" counts only in horseshoes and hand grenades. The situation you describe is perilous beyond belief. People in any "business path", whether they are CEOs, CFOs or UFOs who are asset rich, cash poor and with a lot of debt are one thing: vulnerable. And when you factor in the state of the economy currently....

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Now I would never diminish the negative impact that this career path (and debt) has had on HH and our marriage.

And quite possibly both your futures.

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HH is incredibly adept at handling financial pressure, probably more so than 99 out of 100 other wives would be.

She doesn't sound like she has handled it well to me. She's depressed, on medication, unhappy, and her marriage is unraveling. I truly feel that you are making light of a very serious situation.

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We both agreed that the potential for good that we could do with the money that we might earn was worth the sacrifice and risk.

Have you ever considered that risk taking is a form of addictive behavior?

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I now usually work no more than 40 hours per week, but it wasn't always that way. Early in our marriage I often worked 80 plus hour weeks.

So did I. It's an insane pace that most people can't keep up. It's good that you scaled back. Did HH notice that you made the change?

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Recently we moved out of state to a situation where I worked from home, had no friends, (didn't even have a car).

That no friends thing is a killer. Is this your current situation?

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We went on a date pretty much every day. We did this in part because she felt I wasn't spending the time necessary on the relationship.

And how did you feel about it? Did you like this arrangement?

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Pretty much the only thing I did while living in this state was run most days and play basketball 1-2x per week. Those two, otherwise healthy activities became her obsession.

Meaning that she did not want you to do these things? The situation that you describe sounds kind of isolating for HH, where all she has is you.

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I don't know what the heck I am doing. wink I am very tenacious, but I needed to get out of the house. Our relationship has gotten so bad that every time I am around HH my back/shoulders tense up so bad that I am debilatated to the point that I cannot even work. When I am away for more than 12 hours, I am fine.

Have you ever considered that we recreate the kind of relationships that we grew up with - even if those relationships were ultimately unsatisfactory?

Do you and HH have friends - good friends? Or are you focused solely on each other/your business? I am asking because I don't know and I may be misremembering some of her previous posts. There's a sense of isolation that comes through when she writes.


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So I thought I should add an update, being Stuffless' wife.

If you are going to be rude, criticize, be verbally or emotionally abusive in your comment, you need not reply. I will disregard downputting comments.

Never having gone to even 7 or 8 consecutive counseling sessions, never having been able to work through the stuff on the table, Stuffless left me last November and has changed his status to single. He has decided to divorce me.

I think it is important to get to the root of what is going on in order to be able to counsel someone. I did not feel that this happened. Stuffless did not acknowledge what I shared at any point in time... he did not empathize, he did not receive what I shared. Many things he said were not true... but speculations not checked out with me. He wrote above that he took me out on dates every night. But he did not share my concern, which is that he was not present... he was not mentally present, emotionally available... Imagine going out on a date where the person will not reach out to you, will not connect with you emotionally. How do you address it with them? I tried many ways.

He has decided to move on... and spent more time in one-on-one counseling than he ever spent with me in counseling. My greatest hurt comes in never feeling received. If I could no longer handle working in his high stress field, that was not received. If his parents were hurtful to me, that was not received, when I said I could not take it any more. Instead... instead, he attacked me for my inability to be invinceable... and somewhere in all of this, his counselor never knew the better.

I understand pain, and I understand dynamics. I understand that each person interprets uniquely. I feel it is wrong for a counselor to merely encourage whatever a person feels inside, without striving for an objective picture. Rogerian counseling is limited... it has grave faults. Relationships can be redeemed, but not if people are unwilling to forgive. My husband claimed I would not forgive, but I did, and did again. I forgave over and over. He did not forgive. After the A, he never opened up to me again. I worked really hard, regained my integrity, but he never forgave me.

My husband is narcissistic, and I could never please him. I have been blamed for everything. I asked him to own his part, while I owned mine. And I did own mine. But the panic that you saw from me--- the panic for being blamed for that which I do not have power over, the decisions Stuffless made, their negative consequences, and to be blamed for things I did not control--- that is emotionally abusive, and because of my personality type, I tried to be perfect for him, because I am highly self-sacrificing.

There are elements that are totally ignored on MB, because the posters here are not qualified to diagnose them. The posters here cannot diagnose narcissism. They cannot adequately recognize abuse... One party can say they do this or that, and it is not the truth. There are many fogs. My husband is in a fog, he has avoidant personality disorder, and keeps people at bay. He kept me distant our entire marriage. There are multiple levels of abuse and neglect that existed in our relationship. And none of them ever got addressed. I shared openly my deep frustrations, and aired my thoughts.I was alone in this. My husband did not do the same. It was important for him to keep a mirror that reflected back to him what he wanted to see of himself.

Warning to those of you out there---- do no take everything MB posters say--- it is not an objective picture. I strongly believe that what MB posters wrote did damage to my marriage. Significant damage. I also believe that philosophies were espoused that encouraged divorce. That encouraged making excuses for leaving. Some posters were even verbally abusive enough to lash out and attack the marriage, to encourage my husband to leave. All I can say is shame on those who come to a Christianity-affiliated site and do anything but encourage reconciliation. Just because some don't believe it, doesn't mean God cannot redeem the impossible. He can. Those who do not have faith in him will never see that. When others are weak, they do not need to be discouraged and told to give up. The truth is that all have sinned---- to leave a partner for their mistakes only points the finger back to us. Who are we to act as God and tell another what is possible (to tell someone it is not possible).

My husband never had the support necessary to work through our problems to redeem our marriage. None of his friends supported him-- none are committed to marriage. His counselor did not. MB did not. The truth is, asking for perfection in marriage is a setup for failure-- no one is perfect. But instead of growing in love, learning how to forgive, how to submit one to another, how to give, serve, love... people divorce. They blame and judge the other and leave them. But they are the ones who gave up, who judged and cast the stones... I am talking about grace. Stone throwers are not grace-filled. And grace is anti-intuitive, thus why so many attack and explain why grace is never merited. And that is right--- grace is not merited, it is always a gift... that's why it is grace, that's why it is life giving... And divorce happens because of lack of grace...

Stuffless never even attempted to fulfill my ENs. He never read the MB books. If he had, they would have impacted him... but he did the same thing from the beginning (years ago), and then said, "I have done all I can" without even having read Harley's books. That is not doing everything. It is a pity that he wore himself out doing things that have never worked, and that he was never willing to learn the things that work, to implement them. I feel cheated in that. I feel deeply hurt that he would not do the work.

Now he has moved back to that other state, left our landlord high and dry, breaking the lease, left all the furniture there (our joint furniture), I'm living at home with my parents, and he has run away from everything, just as he did in our marriage, avoiding, avoiding, avoiding, and then telling me I'm the problem when I address it.

I matter enough that I deserve someone who will work on our marriage. I am worth the time, effort, tears. Finally, I know I am worth it. I thought I wasn't for the longest time, because he wouldn't do it. He wouldn't risk emotionally, while I risked everything, put myself out there, broke my back for us. I made many mistakes, but if he made less, it's because he did not risk.


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Originally Posted by stuffless
The person I married was the most loving and lovable person I ever met. She had a childlike joy that was rare. She still has that rare quality, but sadly it is often hidden behind her depression and abuse.

I still love her deeply but looking back over the past few years I mostly remember lots of unhappiness on her part. Lots of yelling and lots of depression.

We have been married for close to a decade, she had her affair a couple of years ago and confessed it to me.

My experience is that no matter how hard I try, how many of her rules I follow, I am still not good enough.

But really I think the root of the matter is that she is just unhappy with her life; her self. And she projects her unhappiness onto me. As long as I am with her, then she cannot will not look at herself to make the real changes that need to be made.

At this point I believe that a formal separation (Plan B) is the right way to go but that seems like such a huge step towards divorce. Which is something that is off the table for me.

ugh.


I see things differently now. I understand things I didn't understand before. I struggle with OCD (obsessive complulsive disorder) and what happens when things get really stressful, I need to organize things and have things certain ways to feel safe. For a long time I told Stuffless that the stress level is too high, and I explained that things certain ways (under high stress) helped me deal better. He never showed any mercy, compassion understanding. He attacked me for my limitations. It hurt so bad to be put down because of who I am or my limitations. Yes, I have OCD, but it only comes out in high stress situations, and our marriage was very high stress, because H continually raised the risk level in business, with our finances, etc. He never respected how badly doing so would affect me, nor my requests that decisions be made differently to lower the stress level.

Stuffless was always good enough. He internalized anytime I said something he did caused me hurt and took that to mean me telling him he was a failure. I never did that, but he actually did use those words to refer to me. He told me I was a failure and a loser, many many times. He says he only did that when we were fighting, but to me it doesn't matter why--- it still hurt beyond words.

I felt like a cornered animal in this marriage. Often, stuffless would attack me, and point out all my faults. They often had to do with me not working in the field he wanted me to work in, and instead of accepting when I shared I couldn't handle the stress, he called me lazy.

I did have lots of joy, initially. He beat me down. He was never willing to stop the attacks. Even after he left me last November, we would meet, and he would attack me again, verbally. I believe change is possible, I always have, but he did not believe so, and nor was he ever able to see how he participated in this marriage, how he had ripped it down with his own hands.

I made of mess of things too, a big mess, which I deeply regret. I have been fighting to become a person I admire, who handles life differently. It is deeply hurtful that my husband was not willing to do the work on himself, on us, and on his heart.

I am deeply grieving losing him.


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Originally Posted by stuffless
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Plan B is in order.

Instead of being a step towards divorce...it is most likely your best option for saving this marriage.

As you have seen the drama unfold, that is precisely where we are at. Who knows if it is the best option for saving this marriage.

One of the big questions I ask myself right now is: Is HH unhappy because of me or my contributions to the relationship, or independently of me. In other words, if I was out of her life would she be happy/happier. If she would be happier if I left then am I holding marriage as a sacred cow. I believe we are here to serve God first. I wonder if we are serving him by staying in a marriage where we are both unhappy?

We did this thing, during our initial go at MC after DD, where the counselor asked us to rate our happiness on a 1-5 scale during every six month period of our marriage. HH's graph stayed in the 1 & 2 level throughout almost all of our marriage. (5 being the happiest)

What is the point if HH has never been happy?


Plan B was NEVER a good idea--- because Stuffless never even did plan A, and he didn't understand Harley's concepts, never read the books... A counselor could tell you that separation almost always leads to divorce... not reconciliation... and it did in our case, too. This is exactly the perfect example when people who are not licsenced counselors should NOT be giving out advice... Telling someone to do plan B without finding out if they even read the books... a good counselor would have found that out. They would have known that Stuffless did not read, that he didn't know how to implement any of it, that he in fact hadn't....

I wish for the life of me I never told Stuffless about MB. No advice would have been better than bad advice..


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HH I think I understand what you are saying, that many situations can be more than an anonymous board alone can address. I am so sorry for your loss. I know you have tried so hard, for so long.

This is from the top of this and every page.

“The members of this community are peers and not professionals. This is a meeting place of people who have had some of the same problems you face. Each member shares their own experience, perspective, and opinion about various topics. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those that would be endorsed by Dr. Harley or his staff. So please keep this in mind as you discuss issues with the members of the community.”

S was given a lot of advice to get professional help, and then he did. I’m sorry that you all didn’t find the help your family needed.


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When my husband left, last November, he was not spending almost any time with me. He was playing ball, going out with the guys drinking, going to the gym, but spending almost NO TIME with me. He had been neglecting me a long time. When I would see him, I was so hurt by how he was treating me, and every time I saw him, he blamed me, over and over. Even looking back over his posts, he did not post about the here and now. I pursued him, and he stonewalled me.

I am deeply hurt. I feel like Stuffless has no internal compass. He follows his feelings, they are king. But feelings take you on a rollercoaster ride, and you hurt and damage those around you, and in the end, you can make excuses, talking about your feelings, as if you can just get off scott free. There is no truth, principle, nothing deep and grounding in feelings. Marriages can never survive based on feelings. No one ever encouraged Stuffless to act from belief--- he acted from feelings... and then ran away... and threw our marriage down the tubes, because of feelings... never acknowledging how he damaged his own marriage, yet demanding I make him feel better. How? How can I do that without addressing the damaging behaviors causing the hurt?

He removed his married status off facebook. That hurts beyond words. I have been faithful, done everything I could, everything, but one stupid A and people throw stones at me, and counsel H to leave--- as if it ever spoke to his character, at all--- his lack of faithfulness in our marriage never got addressed, because it wasn't sexual infidelity, and sexual infidelity is made into this "worst sin of all sins", and so that one can do anything at all to one's partner if they have been sexually unfaithful. How absurd. It's just rationalization--- because at the bottom of it is lack of grace, judgment and condemnation of one to another, one sinner pointing to another, as if they were not a sinner too.


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Choices, you both made choices.

You both contributed to make the marriage bad. Your BH never was willing to change. Your were not willing to change until after your affair with the OM.

Your BH is now using your affair as his justification to not have to change. This is wrong. His future relationships will suffer for his adittude.

However your BH, any BH does not have to recover or even to attempt to recover after their WW has an affair.

So don't be made at your BH for not recovering. It is what it is.

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Originally Posted by HopingHeart
When my husband left, last November, he was not spending almost any time with me. He was playing ball, going out with the guys drinking, going to the gym, but spending almost NO TIME with me. He had been neglecting me a long time. When I would see him, I was so hurt by how he was treating me, and every time I saw him, he blamed me, over and over. Even looking back over his posts, he did not post about the here and now. I pursued him, and he stonewalled me.

I am deeply hurt. I feel like Stuffless has no internal compass. He follows his feelings, they are king. But feelings take you on a rollercoaster ride, and you hurt and damage those around you, and in the end, you can make excuses, talking about your feelings, as if you can just get off scott free. There is no truth, principle, nothing deep and grounding in feelings. Marriages can never survive based on feelings. No one ever encouraged Stuffless to act from belief--- he acted from feelings... and then ran away... and threw our marriage down the tubes, because of feelings... never acknowledging how he damaged his own marriage, yet demanding I make him feel better. How? How can I do that without addressing the damaging behaviors causing the hurt?

He removed his married status off facebook. That hurts beyond words. I have been faithful, done everything I could, everything, but one stupid A and people throw stones at me, and counsel H to leave--- as if it ever spoke to his character, at all--- his lack of faithfulness in our marriage never got addressed, because it wasn't sexual infidelity, and sexual infidelity is made into this "worst sin of all sins", and so that one can do anything at all to one's partner if they have been sexually unfaithful. How absurd. It's just rationalization--- because at the bottom of it is lack of grace, judgment and condemnation of one to another, one sinner pointing to another, as if they were not a sinner too.

You learned a hard lesson here. Don't allow another person to dictate your morals. You knew the affair was wrong. And it put him in a position of choosing to forgive or not. He chose not to forgive. Maybe that was because he was already unhappy as you were. Either way, if he was unwilling to change the dynamic of the marriage, you may be better off without him.


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So, a narcissist married an OCD person, and it didn't work, and you blame MB and its posters for your lack of success? umm...ok.

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Originally Posted by stuffless
The person I married was the most loving and lovable person I ever met. She had a childlike joy that was rare. She still has that rare quality, but sadly it is often hidden behind her depression and abuse.

I still love her deeply but looking back over the past few years I mostly remember lots of unhappiness on her part. Lots of yelling and lots of depression.

We have been married for close to a decade, she had her affair a couple of years ago and confessed it to me.

My experience is that no matter how hard I try, how many of her rules I follow, I am still not good enough.

But really I think the root of the matter is that she is just unhappy with her life; her self. And she projects her unhappiness onto me. As long as I am with her, then she cannot will not look at herself to make the real changes that need to be made.

At this point I believe that a formal separation (Plan B) is the right way to go but that seems like such a huge step towards divorce. Which is something that is off the table for me.

ugh.

It is amazing looking back how often it appears we talked right past each other. Somehow I feel Stuffless never heard me. He wrote that I was not happy with myself, and I projected it onto him... What I was sharing with Stuffless at the time is that I was not happy with the in-laws living in our house (as they did) and the lack of emotional safety I had with them there, considering the verbal abuse I received from them the last time they lived with us. I was also not happy with my work, and at the time I was working in for Stuffless' company, against my desire, but in a tough position that he was convinced only I could fill. In my personality profile, my strongest personality type is "self-sacrificing", and Stuffless' second strongest is "adventurous" (next to "sensitive", which is my second strongest type as well). The Adventurous personality type likes to take risk, lives on the edge...

Anyways, it is interesting that I sacrificed my wishes professionally for H, but he did not appreciate me for doing so. It was interesting that after I went back to school, he then insisted that I was being selfish... Really, I didn't feel like I could win. frown

I can't help feeling that all our discrepancies could have been worked out. The counselor he sees used to be my counselor. He is a great counselor for encouraging people to own what they want, to act on their wishes. This fit well with me because I often ignored my own wishes and hopes. However, with the adventurous personality type, the Adventurous person tends to run over the wishes of others, especially Self-Sacrificing types. The counselor did not account for this. Highly Adventurous people need to reign in some of the Adventurous tendencies in order to not mow over other people. Adventurous types already follow their emotions-- counseling someone to give in to their emotions more, instead of to practice discipline, is not the strategy I think was appropriate.

What Oldham and Morris' New Personality Self-Portrait says about my husband's Adventurous style:

"Adventurous types are fundamentally out for themselves" (p. 228).

"Because they don't worry about going under, Adventurous people are remarkably easy with money. Investing, gambling, spending, even giving it away is stimulating, it makes them feel powerful, it's living, and with a good gut sense, they can sometimes make a bundle" (p. 230).

"Life is a game of getting around the rules and the conventional obbligations and going beyond the established limits" (p. 235).

"Adventurous types can be good talkers; they can talk anybody into anything---judges and juries included" (p. 235).

"Individuals with this style do not easily make sacrifices for other people; certainly they make few sacrifices for the sake of fidelity" (p.237).

"They feel no moral pressure to save a relationship just for the sake of saving it or because they feel they owe the partner something for having been involved in the first place. As in other aspects of their lives, they don't build, together or alone, for the future" (p. 238).


"Jesus looked at them intently and said, 'Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible.'" Matthew 19:26
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Originally Posted by medc
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As long as I am with her, then she cannot will not look at herself to make the real changes that need to be made.

Plan B is in order.

Instead of being a step towards divorce...it is most likely your best option for saving this marriage.

Evidently, it was not. A counselor and I saw even said so. He addressed Stuffless (this is after he had separated) that separation almost always leads to divorce. Plan B was never in order here. I was not a wandering spouse. I was not in "fog" thinking. The danger for people like Stuffless going through hard emotional times is that bad advice can shipwreck any hopes for the marriage's future, as I feel it did for mine. This is a warning to MBers that there is lots of bad advice out there, be forewarned and be very cautious what you act on.

Some of the people who post on MB have an agenda. Some had spouses cheat on them, and they dish out anger and vengeance to WSs that come along, and tell BSs to leave their spouses. This is unfortunate... Giving out advice under the guise of "helping" while instead being committed to another agenda... one of vicariously punishing anyone who had an affair... is just not right.


"Jesus looked at them intently and said, 'Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible.'" Matthew 19:26
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It is sad that first you blame MB for the bad advice. Then you blame your counselor for not taking into account the selfish tendancies of your husband and say that this helped you lose the marriage.

The way you two were living, the way you interacted, and the personality issues you both had would make any marriage hard if not impossible.

Why not put blame where blame belongs, squarely on you and your husband?

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MAybe it is time for you to move on and start getting a life for yourself.

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Too much talk about how your H and his counselor were at fault for the demise of your M. Too much talk about how MB and its posters were the downfall.

You're here. This should be about you trying to reign in those things that get in your way of having and living the life you want.

"Self-sacrificing" is not a good trait. Why don't we see more communication from you that tells us how you are addressing this obvious problem you have with yourself.

If you don't fix that you'll just take it with you to your next M. And then who will you have to blame when that R ends?

Last edited by MrAlias; 05/01/09 12:18 PM.

Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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