It’s the 4th anniversary of my D-Day this weekend. At least I think it is. It actually was more of "D-Week", as we had the first "talk" on one weekend, during which time she mentioned her "friend", and then she confessed to the 2-year EA/PA on the following weekend. I spent the days in-between in emotional agony, knowing what the truth likely was, but afraid of it never the less.

I’ve never told my/our story here, so I guess I’ll take this opportunity to do so.

We met for the first time, many years ago, ’82 or ’83 I believe. I was working in an entry-level role in the mail room for a major company and was very much single and very much a virgin at the time. It’s not that I wasn’t interested in the opposite sex. Just that I really hadn’t come across anyone yet that really caught my fancy.

That day she joined our small department, she literally took my breath away.

We quickly became good friends, but I secretly wanted our relationship to go a bit further. She went out with my best friend (same company, different office) for awhile, but that didn’t last very long.

The first time I asked her if she wanted to have “more than a friendship”, she said no. Perhaps I should have listened back then, but back then I never took no for an answer.

A week later, we became a couple. Sparks ignited one night. We basically did everything together from that point, and thoroughly enjoyed each other’s company. The only thing we did NOT do was sex – she’d told me at one point that she wanted to wait until M, and I let her know that I respected her decision, though I also hoped that she would change her mind. I was also a virgin at the time.

Two years’ later, I left the job and enrolled in a university, to complete a three-year agree. She did the same, at a different university. We discussed our relationship, and both decided to continue it. After all, it was only three years…

Well, it took her about three weeks’ at university to give her virginity away to some creep; a guy who actually suggested that she could use him as a "substitute" for me. She came back from the first time all ready to have sex (having had sex only the night before with OM1 – something I discovered much later), and of course when I inquired why, the story came out about her going "all the way" with that character. Of course I was broken-hearted when she broke the news to me, but after a few days, and her pleading that she wanted our relationship to continue, I decided to continue the relationship. I basically told myself, well, we weren’t M’d, so it wasn’t really cheating, so I could get over it.

So we continued. A big problem though – now she wanted to have sex with me, but I simply couldn’t do it. Things just wouldn’t work properly. I guess something in me just turned off. I do remember thinking that she only wanted to have sex with me because she had it with that other guy and liked it. In any case, we could do everything but that. Still, we stayed together, and got even closer (or so I thought). We eventually ended up getting M’d several years later, and the first few years of M were thrilling, SF and all.

Things started going downhill after those three years. I will readily admit that I was not the best H. I grew up in a household where the H brought home the $$$ and looked after the "heavy stuff" and the W was a SAHM who took care of the kids, so I did not provide as much help on the home front as I should have. Her outbursts and other love-busting didn’t help matters much either. She always wanted things done "her way" and after awhile, I really wasn’t inclined to help out.

Things changed a bit about six years ago. The love-busting increased, but she also developed a bit of a "don’t care" attitude, and now our kids were being more and more subjected to her outbursts. I withdrew even further, basically just tried to stay out of her way. It wasn’t always possible though, and we would have frequent blow-ups. Still, for some reason, I always felt that we basically "had each other’s back", and we would not deliberately engage in any sort of activity that would be harmful to each other. As I look back at those days now, I can’t understand why I would have felt that way, when her behaviour so obviously suggested otherwise. And to make matters worse, my problems with erectile dysfunction returned and got worse.

In 2000, her wedding ring was stolen, and she refused to have it replaced. Something was obviously very wrong. I started paying a bit more attention to avoiding the "blow-ups": and slowly but surely things between us actually started to improve around mid 2003. I was trying hard to avoid "pushing her buttons", and we seemed to be getting along a bit better. And in late 2003, I started using "Vitamin V", which basically cured the erectile dysfunction problem. In December 2003, while visiting her parents, seeing that things seemed to be going so well, I again raised the issue of replacing her wedding ring, and this time she agreed. The new ring was blessed during a little ceremony involving all of us at her parents’ home.

We went on a family excursion to a major resort in 2004. We had a really good time there as well. Her parents came along with us, and acted as babysitters a few times so we could enjoy some nights out alone. Once or twice she used the Internet connection at the hotel to check in with her subordinate, a guy, at her office - I didn't think anything of it at the time.

The first real sign she gave that there might be someone else involved was in September 2004. She started to be quite secretive about a person she’d done something for, and when I eventually got the truth out of her, three months later, she told me that it was the same guy at the office, who now seemed to be a "good friend", and she didn’t want to tell me because she didn’t want me to get the wrong idea and think it was something more. Silly me – I believed her completely.

Unfortunately, our relationship started falling apart after that. The "don’t care" attitude returned, along with the angry outbursts and irritable and over-the-top behaviour, and on the 30th of April, about a week after another really big blowup, she quietly and calmly told me that she "no longer loved me like she used to", and it was basically up to me to decide what was to happen next.

I knew immediately at that point that she was likely in an A, and I had a good idea who the OM was as well. It was just a question of how far along the A had gotten. At first, she insisted that he was "just a good friend", and their "friendship" had nothing to do with the state of our relationship or her feelings towards me. It took one week for the truth to actually come out – that she had been involved in an affair since late 2003, and they first had sex in early 2004, just days after returning home with the new wedding ring on her finger. The affair started falling apart in early 2005, which likely explained her general mood at the time, and she admitted to me much later that she was hoping that I would give up on the M and let her go, the idea being that, once she was "free", she could try to restart the A.

I am not quite sure now why I said that I wanted to try to recover the M when she broke the news of her A. I do know that I was very scared of being left alone. I guess some part of me still loved her, but it’s taken me a long time to realise that the "her" that I loved might not be the actual "her", if you know what I mean. A lot of the little things that she used to do took on a whole different light after her A. For example, one of the things I loved about her was that she was always frank with me. Now it seems that what I interpreted as frankness on her part when she expressed her opinion could simply have been the result of indifference or a lack of empathy; she did not care what effect her words might have, so she didn’t think twice about what she said. She’s also a bit of a chameleon – some of the stuff that’s come to light about her after the A, well, I would have never expected her to indulge in that sort of behaviour.

Oh, and the A continued after D-Day, albeit for a short while. I caught her IM'ing him one night when she thought I wasn't around to see what she was doing. They had one last "closure meeting" and she stopped talking to him completely after that, except for business purposes. Or so she says. She left the job a few months later, and all contact ceased entirely (or so she says).

So here I am. It’s four years after D-Day. We’ve eliminated a lot of the LBs from our relationship, and some ENs are being met. She actually does a better job at them than I do. However, I’m quite aware that she’s not really "in love" with me, and our relationship is based more on tolerance than anything else. I feel like we’re in a "holding pattern", and there’s no real long-term planning involved in our relationship. Sometimes I find myself wishing that I could just wake up one morning and find out that this has all been one long horrible nightmare, but that’s likely not going to happen. There are signs from her that at times she’s sorry that she hurt me, but no real sign I can see that she really understands the evil she involved herself in, so I will not be surprised if it happens again. Because of that, I likely will never trust her again.

So… I’m going to hold on to what we’ve got, or what’s left of what we got until such time, or until something else comes along that makes it basically impossible for me to stay in this relationship and maintain my sanity and self-respect.

A big part of the problem is how well she fooled me, and the different "explanations" she has for our experiences. For example, that trip to the resort? She was actually more than just "checking in" with the subordinate, who turned out to be the OM. I thought we were really having a good time, really getting close. She explained "just because we were enjoying ourselves doesn't mean I was in love with you". Nice. Now every time we seem to be enjoying each other's company, that phrase rings in my head, and I remind myself that I cannot trust what I see, I cannot trust what I hear, and I cannot trust what I feel.

And that in a nutshell (ok, a big nutshell), is MiM’s Story.

I'm sorry you are in purgatory. Do you think your W is interested in a better marriage or does she have the same opinion as you do (quoted above)? I believe she is thinking the very same thing.

You cannot simply wait this out. You need a major step-change.

I don't know what opinion she has at the moment. We haven't had any R talk in quite a while. It's very difficult to get an opinion from her unless she actually takes the initiative to express it.

So you either have detente or MAD but you can't be sure which. At some point the two of you need to come to an understanding of what each of you wants from the M. If you aren't happy, I can assure you she isn't happy either. Wouldn't it be better to try to find a way to change that rather than simply live with status quo? She hasn't left you/divorced you so there is some reason she is staying with the M so having a better M something that would benefit her as well.

You are stuck in a very deep rut.

In reading your post, I just wonder how objective you're being. You mention anniversary date - always a trigger. R is not going as you had hoped. Are things really as bad as you say or do they only seem that way through your looking glass? I ask this because I have this problem although I think my R is probably going better than yours. I'm also about at the 4 year mark and, at times, I do get depressed and ask myself what I'm doing. Then I take a step back and ask whether the problem is real or just my perception.

I will never have again what I once had. Even if I were to get divorced and eventually remarry, I still wouldn't have what was taken from me - the innocence - because I'll know that new wife is always capable of the same thing. So I try to make the best of the M that I have and I think you need to climb out of the rut and do the same.

It sounds like you both, literally, do not know what a healthy marriage is. You have never experienced it. From the first time she cheated, it damaged you sexually. Because of that, she feels that you can never forgive her, so she has settled for a less then mediocre marriage. Now neither of you know where to begin to find that healthy marriage. You both have to decide between two decisions. Stay together, and always be unfulfilled, or divorce and try to begin your lives over again. You both should have been in counseling from the day you found out she gave what was yours to some other guy. In that act alone, it should have told you that she had no boundaries when it came to what she wanted.

Hi MiM...

Well wow, *gulp*, thank you for taking the time to share your story...I sure do wish it was less melancholy and grim for you - ((((MiM))))...Mr. W and I share the same time table with you guys...We too are now 4 years post dday...But that is where our similarities end...We read your story together last night and we both wish you could know the genuine joy of a recovered marriage...

What have each of you done to recover, MiM? What MB books have you guys read? Lovebusters? His Needs/Her Needs? Fall in Love, Stay in Love? Surviving An Affair?

What about doing the new MB Online Seminar they are now offering? Check it out~~~>MB Online Seminar

What do you think?

Mrs. W

MiM.

I admit I haven't paid too much attention to all your posts over the years. I had no idea things are as bad for you as you seem to think they are. But you do have over 3,000 posts and you have been here for years and, from what I have read, your posts are quite insightful. I guess I just don't have the gut feeling that your situation is as bad as you feel it is right now. What I do sense is fear. What I'm not sure of is whether it is fear of failure or fear of success.

Something has to change. You can't go on like this.

You gave me some good advice when I first came here and I am grateful. I am sorry to hear that you are still struggling with trust four years later and feel that you wife is not in love with you. You mentioned that some LBs have been eliminated. Which ones remain? What are you doing to eliminate them? You know that they shoot holes in you wife's Lovebank. How can you plug those holes? What EN's are not being met? Are you tired and feeling low right now or do you always feel this way? You said that things have improved. That is encouraging. I hear that it takes a long time and a lot of work by both parties. Time alone won't fix the problem. You help a lot of people here. Maybe it is time for you to get some help. Best wishes.

Hi MiM
I think I have pretty much kept track of your story and the two of you were posting together a year or so ago weren't you?

So are you thinking that she will commit adultery again?

Are you looking for a way out of the marriage?

You sound like you are almost ready to give up on it.

She cheated early on and then also later on. First cheat was cheating you out of a lot and the second one was a long term cheat that was emotional and physical. It's a lot to recover from.

Unfortunately, MiM has described exactly what happens when only one partner is interested in recovery. Settle for crumbs and this is what you get.

I'm very sorry for you MiM but what do you intend to DO?

Thanks for this, P. It IS quite possible I supposed that my perception might be a bit biased. Reading over what I've posted, it looks like my M is utter misery, but it really isn't. It's actually quite good most of the time. It's just not the "10" I'd like it to be, and it scares me a bit that I can't seem to envision a future with things are they are at the moment.

The trust thing is a big issue for me, P. I could, and did, put up with almost everything but dishonesty. I've dropped good friends for a lot less than what she's put me through. And it's not just about her cheating. What scares me too is the re-writing of our history that seems to have occurred. For example, she absolutely believes that we weren't really a couple before she left for university (even though we dated each other exclusively for the years before), and that my ED problem showed up before she travelled, and that she told me "no sex before M" because she felt that was something she was supposed to say; she didn't expect me to follow it. And finally, she says she only had sex with OM1 twice, even though she previously told me on that very first DD that it was more than five times. Of course, when she then told me the last time we discussed it that she engaged with sex with OM1 just to find out if she could do it, the reason for the re-writing of our history became pretty clear - it was all to "justify" her choices. I'm afraid that the very same thing will happen for all of her other "bad" choices. And this re-writing continues for other aspects of our relationship as well. Sometimes it feels a bit like living in a Twilight Zone when she absolutely denies something that I know she said, or accuses me of saying or doing something that I know I didn't, and when I refer to my journal to confirm what actually happened, she says the journal only reflects my perception, nothing more.

I also have difficulty telling when she's lying, or twisting the truth to her benefit. And it didn't help that she didn't consider omission of the truth as lying. Maybe that part of her has changed, but I can't help but have the uneasy feeling many times that I have not heard the whole story from her.

A perfect 10 marriage? I might settle for a 9.7 given the 3.2 degree of difficulty. The word "afraid" really stands out in that post. Not to belittle what you say W does but we all rewrite history to an extent. I think we do it as self-preservation although I admit a few people can take it to the extreme.

One thing I will suggest to you is to try to take a look at this objectively and start learning to choose your battles. What are the deal-breakers and what are trivial annoyances? What do you really need to fight for and what can you let go?

I got to a difficult point in my post A life and gemela and I had a discussion and I told her I no longer cared if she had yet another A because it was not something I could prevent. If she wanted to have an A, she was perfectly capable. A point already proven. I told her that, if she did, sooner or later I would discover it and we would get a divorce immediately.

I couldn't live my life in fear of what might happen because living in fear is not a life worth living. Once I came to this conclusion, I felt a huge weight lifted off me. When gemela is not where I think she is or disappears (doesn't happen very often), it never occurs to me she is with another man. I guess my point is that gemela never proved to me that I could trust her. I just learned to not always assume the worst. I am learning to be happy because I know my future happiness doesn't depend on gemela. I enjoy her being around and I can allow myself to be happy because I don't have fear. I also know that, if we ever do D, I'll have a great life afterward.

No M is perfect (okay except maybe the Wonderings). You need to think about trying to make the best of what you have. What you will find is that if you change the way you look at the M, it will actually get much better. We are such frail creatures. It's amazing we have survived this long.

We've read several of the Harley books, and a few others, like "Not Just Friends", and Love Is Never Enough", "How Can I Forgive You", and a few others. Right now I've found that it's best to NOT engage in any R talk unless I have to, because it just seems to make things more depressing. I'm trying to practice MB stuff in "stealth mode", and I think she's doing the same. There certainly has been a change in her attitude. Unfortunately, my top ENs ('cept for the O&H one) are quite easy for her to meet. Hers apparently are not. Still, I am trying.

The online seminar sounds interesting. I'll find a way to mention it to her...

The more difficult ones . Seriously, there are a few bad habits that sometimes show up every now and then, but I think I've managed to get rid of most of them. I tend to feel at times though that she's raising the bar on me, while the bar for the OM was lowered considerably.



I don't usually feel as bad as I did when I made that post, and I certainly don't feel bad as I did on DD. I think I might just be having difficulty with the "acceptance" part of forgiveness, and these types of anniversaries just tend to aggravate the situation.

Raise it yourself. Be the best that YOU can be. Forget about what W wants. So you're better than OM. Isn't that a good thing?

I think if the right opportunity came along, it may happen again. She tells me know that knows how to "protect her boundaries" and avoid those types of situations that could lead to As, but I think I'm looking for a bit more than that to really trust what she's saying.



Sometimes, yes, when I'm feeling really low. Generally, no. It seems that once I'm away from her, and I start thinking about what I've been through, it seems the only solution is to walk away. But, as soon as I return home, and I'm in her company, those feelings tend to dissipate.

You have to learn to stop ruining your present for fear of what might happen in the future. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Learn to be happy with what you now have at this moment regardless of what could happen later on. And if you are happy, I assure you W will be happy and that thing you are afraid of cannot possibly happen.

HA! LOL! Pio, you GOOB!

Mrs. W

I get the sense that you are not willing to invest yourself completely. You've been burned and don't want to get burned again. Who does? You and W are in a Mexican standoff. I used to be that way - and I was in one with a real Mexican so I was seriously disadvantaged.

Put your gun down.

Think about it. What is the very worst thing that can happen to you? You might get a divorce. That's it. There is no "unknown" here. You aren't happy because you are choosing not to be happy. W has nothing to do with it.

Take the risk. Throw yourself completely into this. You have a lot less to lose than you think you do.

Oh and I don't like being called "P". I don't think we know each other that well to be on a first letter basis.

Not quite. I was willing to invest myself completely at one point, but my FWW's hesitation to do the same has led me to question my approach, and now I'm no longer completely invested.



Nope, that's not the very worst thing. It's more likely going to be a just part of a list of very bad things that can happen if my life takes that turn.



LOL - ok, it's a bit unusual to see someone their anonymous nick so seriously on a web forum devoted to much more serious topics, but I'll respect your request. Will Pio do, or should I use the full Piojitos?