Zen I sincerely hope that you have a clause that if she marries this POSOM, that your children would not be able to see Coho unsupervised. They are both coking and drinking. They could do anything in front of your children unsupervised. I bring this up, because she is likely to marry him on the rebound. Regarding being comforted, I am hoping that you will make yourself available to go to dinner and a movie or to date a nice girl. You were well down the road to independence until she tricked you into giving her another chance.

Hmmm, ya know I'm glad you brought that up. I have gone on a few couple dates already this week. I have been feeling really guilty about it. I'm being very upfront while trying not to expose the poor girls to my emotional quagmire. I'm really conflicted already. One of them seems to be falling pretty hard already and the emotional connection is very tempting, but I feel like I would be too needy and selfish in a relationship right now and I have told her this. By selfish, I just mean that I'd be taking too much by trying to process all that has gone on, while trying to engage someone new. If anything, I think that’s exactly what Coho has done. I guess the difference here is that it is not at my spouse’s and family’s expense. It has the potential to be at someone else’s expense though, and I absolutely don’t want to unnecessarily hurt anyone. It's been very fun and comforting to have the attention of women, for once in my life they're coming out of the woodwork. But I'm starting to feel like I don’t have much to offer other than witty banter and a broken heart at the moment. That doesn’t lead to much depth. I'm promising myself to stay out of a committed relationship for quite some time. It seems that the positives are that my ego can be restored, I can enjoy some adult time, and have some company while checking out new places. The disadvantages are that I run the risk of not addressing my own issues and breaking someone else’s heart.

I’d love to hear other opinions on this. Most of my friends are encouraging me, but I would like to hear more experience. I feel like I’m going against a lot of conventional wisdom on this, which often leads to trouble. I am committed to being totally honest.

Zen, I think it's great that you are getting out of the house. I guess I would question why dating so soon? You are still so fresh out of the marriage--not even officially separated! If I were single, I would not even date you because you are still married!

Just take it slow. Relish your individuality and alone-ness. Not *loneliness*--alone-ness. They are two different things.

Officially separated? Do you mean legally? Because believe me it's as official as can be in all but paper.

That said, I am very conflicted. I know there are many opinions on the subject, but going on a casual date with someone vs. being involved in a relationship with someone are two very different things in my mind. I do fee like I'm playing fire, so maybe I just need to listen to that.

Yes, you are right, it is filling the alone-ness with somebody which I think is dangerous territory. It's all new to me so I'll listen to any and all advice.

To be clear, anyone I have dated knows I am divorcing, first and foremost. I'm hiding nothing. I don't think I'd date me know either.

I just think if I were you, that I'd concentrate more on getting out and spending time with adults as a break from being a single dad and not forcing the dating issue. When it's right it will happen. If you wouldn't date you now, you wouldn't want to put some very nice woman through that, would you? It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to just have some female friends without the dating/sexual overtones.

And though you might feel the separation is offician, a legal 'stamp of approval' would make it that much more official!

One last thought: It's likely Coho is going to rebound w/ OM. Your kids need stability. How do you think it's going to feel for them if Daddy *and* Mommy bound right into their next relationships?

Zen love is where you find it. There will be no perfect time for a relationship. As long as she understands where you are at, let her make her own decisions.

I will not be introducing anyone to the children for a long time. I have no trust in my wife's ability to refrain from this, so I will be pursuing a legal means to reinforce it. I will respect any and all proper behavior with regard to my children - I promise you this.

Yes, sex is the furthest thing from my mind right now. By dating, it is simply gentlemanly dinner and coffee at this point.

I sound like rationalizing away what you're saying. Sorry, I'm not.

Of course Zen isn't going to introduce any ladies to his kids. Coho is the only worry there. She has no thought for the effects of her skanking around on the kids. I do have no doubt that on some mornings she will wake up and look in the mirror at what she has become and weep. Especially after some decent girl snaps up ZEN.

But this is how needs start to be met and soon follows love ...

Hi Zenwolf!

It's been a while since I've had any chit chat with you.
I'm on the side of no dating for 2 reasons.

One, you are not D'd yet.

Two, there is a lot of healing that needs to be done before you can make rational decisions about future partners.
You also need to figure out why you make poor choices in mates.
This is soul searching and changing of thinking, it's hard to concentrate on you when you're dating.

My H's exWW, and she still is and always will be I'm sure, left him 3yrs. after they were M. They were mid 20's at that time.
Because my H had experienced adultery, I was always convinced that this would be something that he would never to do me. I know very naive on my part.
Never in our M did my H show any jealous tendencies, actually quite the opposite. I also had never given him any reason to be jealous.
A few months after D-Day, in a heated argument, WH started accusing me of betrayal. At first I thought he was shifting blame, fog talk etc.
While some of it was, WH brought up things from way back when that were just too sensitve to be fog talk.
This made me think that he had never dealt with his exWW's betrayal to the full extent, that it should have been.
It did indeed harm out M.

Anyway, that's my take on it ....

Zen,
I agree that it is too soon to date. You are still legally married. A lot can still happen. You must give yourself the time to heal and be comfortable in your own skin alone before you can bring anything healthy to a new relationship. I know that it is easier to replace Coho with other women than deal with the loneliness but you are not being fair to these new women (that are OW because you are still married). Don't take time away from your kids right now to date. Your children need you to help them through this also. They are watching you. What do you want to teach them about love and marriage? They won't learn anything healthy from mom. It will be your responsibility to teach them the right way to be and that it is better to be alone than with the wrong person.

How about putting that energy into something new to do with you and the kids?

Join Scouts, or the Y, or a museum/zoo volunteer setup...something new and and exciting?

Yeah, I'll stop rationalizing. There's been enough of that already. You guys are right.

Your point about choosing wrong partners is a big lesson to be learned. I have next to no history before Coho, but the girl I fell for before her was a very pretty, intelligent but emotionally yucky person as well. Downright mean.

It's insecurity, plain and simple. If a pretty woman showed interest in me, I had trouble using the brain. I've never pursued a woman, always waited around for someone to knock me over the head, and this is usually the VERY forward ones.

I also agree that it would be very unfair to inflict my current emotional mess on another person. I guess I was rationalizing that if I could keep things very casual, I could go out and feel like a desired person again. Well, I've had wild success in attracting plenty of dates in the week that I tried, so I guess that answers that.

It's also dangerous because historically I fall very fast and have trouble keeping things light, even when there are all kinds of warning signs. I ended up with Coho at first because I didn't want to break her heart. Not really a good reason. It became far more than that later on, but if there's one thing I've learned here, it's that we can fall in love with just about any person who is filling our emotional needs. It's very interesting going forward with that knowledge.

Thanks for being honest with me. I have felt pretty guilty about it, mostly because of its proximity to the end of Coho and me. Also my fear of hurting someone else. I haven't done anything I'd consider wrong or underhanded or dishonest, but the potential for things to go horribly wrong is pretty strong.

The legality of it doesn't matter too much to me at this point, but it certainly gets into that gray area again. All of these girls have known that I'm legally married and I am totally honest about the situation.

I'd like to hear from someone who forced themselves into this waiting period. I feel like every single person I know just bounces around from relationship to relationship, despite this common wisdom of becoming strong in a period of aloneness. I never thought I'd have to think about that because I thought I'd die married to the same woman. I remember giving Coho this advice when we were first together. Ha.

BINGO!

What does this tell you about how the level of respect that these women have for marriage?

What they'll do with you Zen, they'll do to you...this is a lesson that you should already have learned, no?

Mrs. W

ETA: Also, being honest about bad behavior doesn't change it into good behavior...

When I was single, I learned that it took at least 1-2 years after the divorce was final for a person to have recovered enough that they wouldn't end up breaking your heart if you dated them. Lots of guys think that if they tell the girl all the information up front the girls won't get hurt. They still get hurt. If you want to have a healthy relationship, YOU have to be healthy. You see people jumping from one bed to another because being alone is hard - really hard. Most people won't do what it takes to be healthy and strong. Learn from this. Grow from this. If you don't, you will just repeat this all over again. How fun does that sound?

I agree with you about broken hearts and being healthy before being in a relationship. I'm not interested in being in a relationship until I am healthy, and I most certainly hope I will have learned an incredible amount from this. I think I already have, and I will continue to strengthen those lessons and try to learn more. These are issues concerning my core self and my innate reactions to the world. I must learn to change what hasn't worked for me. I'm sure it will be at least a couple years before I'm beginning to be whole again. Does this mean I can't go on a date with anyone before then? I don't think dating has to be for the purpose of establishing a commitment. I think it's inevitable that some heartbreak occurs in dating unless it leads to marriage, because you are creating emotional attachments, and it's different than friendship. I think that's just the nature of dating.

We're going to have to disagree about the legality of marriage and what dating now implies to the current state of my marriage. If I see another woman, it is not cheating in any way in my mind. It's fine if you think otherwise, but that's not what I believe. I am not a legalist. I believe marriage is a choice and a promise, not a legal procedure. I take that promise as seriously as life itself. If Coho had been unfaithful to me before we got married, it would still have been an incredible breach our commitment. That no longer exists. I am not cheating on my wife if I went out and slept with 20 woman tomorrow as far as I'm concerned. Nor is it cheating on those women if I them that I'll be sleeping with 19 others and they can choose to stay or go. She has lost all claim to the marriage. The marriage is over and buried in a pile of rubble. This is not a rationalization for bad behavior, it's a difference in belief. I swear a lot. I have no moral value attached to swearing, but my mother thinks it's a sin. I have no moral value attached to consenting adults doing whatever they choose with each other as long as it is not at the expense of one of them or anyone else.

Is it a bad idea for me to date now? Probably. Is it wrong? No.

There is a practical reason that divorces are not final immediately. Lots can happen while waiting for them to finalize. How many times have you taken Coho back already? Would it be cheating if Coho had a miraculous epiphany and returned to you one final time and everything worked out? I think it would. It will not kill you to wait until after you are whole again to date new women. Dating leads to relationships or you stop dating. That is the intention of dating. Coho was married when you started dating her. You are married now. It matters. How long will it take for your divorce to be final in Oregon? Will you be too old by the time you are officially free? Or, do you just want to get even? Do you feel like it is not fair that Coho has been having all this "fun" at your expense and you deserve to have some "fun" too? Do you want Coho to find out and be jealous or hurt? Or will you only be hurting yourself and those poor little children that don't understand why their world has changed so horribly?

Dating while still married is still cheating.

Whether the marriage is good or bad, you are still married.

When you have a WS you are still married and are not free to date others.

No no no. No, it won't kill me to not date. I'm sure that is the right and proper thing to do. I will not take Coho back, period. I wish that was not the case, and I suppose miracles happen, so I guess there's a one in a million chance she will change enough to matter. I won't be married again anytime soon, so I suppose she has some time to work a miracle. I have less than zero faith that this will happen. I think she's going to rationalize this to her grave. I really do. I think she'll just keep running.

I completely disagree, I'm sorry. It's cheating when it is at the expense of another. When it is breaking a promise. Just as I think two gay men who have a life commitment to each other is just as valid as a legal marriage between a man and a woman. It's the commitment that matters, not the paper.

I also disagree that dating is for the purpose of creating relationships. Maybe it was for you, but I think there are about a million degrees between a cup of coffee with someone and a committed relationship. It's about what is communicated and promised between consenting adults. I think it's wrong for a man to walk up and put a banana in my butt without my permission. If I ask him to do that, then it's fine.

No, I'm not trying to get back at her. I did it to try to feel desired and not alone. I know this isn't the wisest of choices, but it doesn't reflect on my fidelity in any way.

I agree that it is a bad idea, like touching an electric fence. Is it wrong to touch the fence? No, just stupid. We may just have to disagree here.