Why does it matter how old she was? Or wasn't?

What cocaine addiction? I didn't know about that.

I would buy your tv but I don't watch mine anymore, too much negative crap. Maybe you can ask Mr. Gray, he has a penchant for large screen tvs.

Charlotte

Yeah, they were/are in politics so that makes a big difference. Who knows what Kennedy would have done anyway? Wasn't long after that that he was dead.

Probably would have stuck around because he was a politician and Jackie would have kept a stiff upper lip about it, like she had to do anyway.

Paul Newman is dead, long live Paul Newman! May his legacy continue to help others long after we all are gone!

Charlotte

Well the sig line says 25 years old. Just doing the math. If you want to talk about how great a president was that died way before you were born, how can we possibly leave out Millard Fillmore?

Apparently JFK had a personal doctor who was constantly at his side - even when he met Kruschev. Supposedly what started out as "pain killing" grew to a viscious habit. JFK didn't want people to see him as invalid so he took drugs. In fairness, he may not have been aware he was taking cocaine. He just took what his doctor gave him. It was all about image. That is why we still believe he was a great president - because we needed to back then - exactly the same way we need to believe Obama is a great president now - because the alternative is unthinkable. Time will be the judge of how great Obama is. And I hope he is great. My 401K needs it. If JFK had been scrutinized by the free press back then as current presidents are, our memories might be different. I still remember the day he was shot. Everyone was in tears. Everyone.

And now that we are off into politics, can we now get into religion? And can you send me your SKYPE password so I can make some long distance calls on your account?

I bet so. My Mom has talked about it before. I saw the video. It was horrible. And she was so freaked out, climbing on the back of the car like she was trying to put him back together. That's what I thought she was trying to do, rather than run, you know? That really stuck with me.

Wow, I didn't know about that whole cocaine deal. Freaky. Thanks for the info.

Charlotte

Sure, why not?

Well, I would, but I had to uninstall Skype...my laptop didn't agree with it. Indigestion problems.

Charlotte

If I could just figure out how to not flush your toilet, I would have them all covered. I think.

Unrepentant adulterors both.

So Charlotte, if your WH marries his OW and comes here in a year or so because his ho is having an affair with some OM2 would you feel so charitable?

No


No it can't. What have they done to earn their "F"? They still maintain a Wayward Mindset.

Frankly, I don't give a fig what he does. He's not my problem anymore.

It doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

If? No if, only when. How do you know it will be him that comes here? Could be her. I don't know if he could hook another victim considering his appearance now, but you never know.

He doesn't have a giving heart like Paul Newman did. Look what he continues to do to his children! Threatening them with subpoenas and so forth. And the IRS.

Charlotte

Well i agree that i do not like that he was in an affairage and will now "boycott" him so to speak. I have done the same with Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie as well (especially her with her trach record she seems like a ho to me).

What i was thinking though is i wonder how many people we may talk to (that we are only just acquaintances with) who may be in an "affairage" and we do not even know?

We know about all of these because they are who they are. Does not change anything in my opinion i will still "boycott" them but i does make you wonder.

We dont know that he did not.
We only know what we "hear" so I am inclined to go with my own deductions based on evidence that I "hear"
After his 1st marriage disater, he was married for 50 years to his wife and he spent a large portion of his later life doing good with his charities.
What is guilt other than your inner voice saying "you messed up" learn from it and fix it. Looks to me he tried to make better choices later in life than he had in his younger days.
Isnt that how we get to the point of forgiving (not erasing), sustained better choices from a FWS. If a 50+ years of better choices does not qualify for a forgiveness then I am not sure what does.

Installing quieter zippers so no one can hear them being unzipped IMHO does not qualify.

wannamoveforward...

When did Newman's affair end? It didn't, therefore, he remained 'wayward'...Does time legitimize an affair? I certainly don't think so...

It's like I asked earlier in this thread...Could a bank robber that kept the money truly repent?

As far as his charitible work is concerned, it doesn't matter...No good deeds cancel out CONTINUED bad behavior...Ted Bundy volunteered on a suicide hotline, certainly a noble cause, but it didn't make the murders he committed any less heinous, right?

To repent means to "change your mind"...Newman didn't change his mind, he was only sorry for his guilt..."I'm sorry, BUT" just doesn't cut it...

Mrs. W

Well said MrsW.

So are you saying that if the WS does not patch with the BS or in anyway continues life with the OP then there is no way they can move past being a WS?
I understand your point of doing good deeds does not cancel the bad one, but what if the money from the robbery was burned in a fire. Since there is none to return the bank robber can no longer redeam himself.
If the M cant be salvaged then what other way is there for the WS to redeem himself or herself. I think A's are like fires they destroy everthing in their path and we can only rebuild something new, cant return and gain repentance.
Perhaps its naive of me but I'd like to go with the theory that people can learn from their mistakes and unless we are looking to give them credit for their efforts we will never see a WS as anything but.
May be its just a selfish thing for me but I'd like to get to a point where there really is such a thing as a FWS and I can look into my DHs eyes and feel that way completely about him. Whether he was able to rebuild with me or someone else, the fact that he (and I) learn from this disaster and rebuild our lives is the goal in my mind.

I think you lose the wayward status when you really believe that your affair was wrong.

If you are married to the affair partner, that makes things more complex for sure. I don't think even Dr H would advise someone who divorced their spouse to marry the affair partner to again divorce, in an attempt to reconcile.

So for me, the litmus test is when the WS goes to the BS and says, what I did was wrong, will you forgive me.

If they don't or never do that, they are still wayward.

Whether or not we want to admit it, the plain truth is that he found someone who was apparently a better match for him than his first W. That he found that someone while M'd to his first W seems to be the big issue here.

I wonder how many here, BS, WS and FWS alike, have wondered at some point in their M if they made a mistake and there was someone better suited for them, or their spouse, out there? Ever considered what you'd do if you actually came across such a better match?

When I found out about my FWW's A, I tried to find out as much about the OM as possible. My thinking might have been screwed up at the time, but I thought that if he came across as someone who would be a better H than I have been, a better match for my FWW, I'd have gone to Plan D immediately. Of course, he turned out to be a shallow character who basically destroyed my M because he was curious about my FWW, and the rest is history.

wannamoveforward...

I'm not sure whether you realize it or not, but I myself am a FWS...What I think it takes to become a FWS is genuine repentence, and as I told you in my last post that means to "change your mind"...To totally and completely renounce your past behavior...I do NOT think that is possible while remaining with an affair partner...Remaining with the affair partner would not allow you to fully change your mind...An affair is a totally toxic relationship and it can never be anything else...

I believe that so fully that even if, GOD FORBID, something were to happen to Mr. W I would still remain FOREVER no contact with my former OM...There could NEVER EVER be anything between myself and him that was not toxic...What began as adultery would remain adultery, imo...

So, YES, certainly your husband can become a FWH and you can look at him in that light, but imo, there must be a complete transformation of his mind and heart for him to be a true FWS, and he couldn't get to that point if he remained with his affair partner...

Mrs. W

No doubt, I thought I'd made mistakes. The difference is, I didn't choose an affair as the solution to my mistake. My XWW decided an affair WAS the solution to what she repeatedly said was a mistake.

However, it is funny that she never ONCE voiced the idea that our getting married was a mistake until she was with OM.

So the idea of it being a mistake has some merit. Yet it must be balanced against the re-writing of history that typically comes with an affair.

I wonder how much better his first marriage would have been if he had put all the effort he was putting into the affair into his marriage?

The mistake is seldom the person. We are all incompatible. The mistake is typically how we choose to conduct our relationship with that person.

That is not corrected by choosing another person.