Sigh. I'm not lashing out. I was willing to save my marriage, and the Wonderings and Karmarose mostly just denounced it as unfit to be saved. How does that make me feel when I'm losing the most important thing in my life? They didn't stand by me at all. They stood apart, judging. Why should I not have tried to save my marriage? Can I have a good answer to that?

If Coho had been willing to save it, or able to save it, their denouncements certainly wouldn't have helped anything. She could have turned into a FWS and proved them wrong. She chose not to, or is simply not able to learn from the past. Whatever motivates her, for me, she is a lost cause.

In the end I'm absolutely willing to concede that the same character flaw or whatever it is in Coho that makes affairs OK for her made her an unfit partner for marriage. I wish I had known that when I asked her to marry me and decided to have children with her. I will most certainly learn from this. I will never enter into a relationship with someone who is in a relationship, marriage or otherwise. I agree, if they'd do it with me, they might do it to me.

This issue? Dating before my divorce is final in a week or two? Tell me not to date because I might break someone's heart and it's unfair to them. Tell me to heal myself so I don't just bury this hurt and never process it. Tell me to use some common sense. But to tell me I'm being unfaithful? Unfaithful to my marriage certificate? Unfaithful to the steaming pile of cr*p that was my marriage? Coho made the choice when she got drunk and called the OM again a month ago. That was the moment the marriage ended. It is done. She broke it, and just forced my hand with the divorce proceedings.

The gay marriage thing. I'm not lashing out. I believe with all my heart that two adults who want to be married in this country should be free to marry. I think it's disgusting and wrong that they should be denied this basic right. To me, marriage is not a Christian-governed legal step, only between a man and a woman. Are Britney Spear's marriages, erased in a matter of days, more valid than two committed gay men who promise to be faithful to each other for the rest of their lives? In this country, yes. I think that is horrid. It is the commitment that makes the marriage. It is the promise. This is the point I'm making. The promise was broken over and over again by Coho, so she lost her claim to the marriage. After that, the moment I said it was over, it was over. If you want me to call Coho up over at her new boyfriend's apartment and ask her, I'm sure she'll agree.

I sound like a wayward? Thanks. When someone tells me that they disagree, I don't tell them they're wrong. I either drop the subject or I find a sensitive way to skirt around it. Maybe I will try to give some examples to illustrate my point. Preaching does nothing when beliefs are that different. I believe in marriage with all my heart. It's all I've wanted, and if it happens again, I will hold to the vows I make with the utmost dedication, as I have with this marriage. If Coho had asked me if it was OK to boink a random guy she met in a bar and I said, "OK", then the vow would not have been broken. If a couple is OK with that sort of arrangement, even if I think it's creepy and a bad idea, I don't attach a moral to it if they are not hurting others by their actions. I'm sure many of you will disagree with that, and I guess that just illustrates that human beings share different beliefs sometimes.

I think I am speaking with folks who have a very conservative Christian legalistic view of the world. That is fine, your beliefs are yours and there is much good in them. I don't share many of those beliefs and I ask you to respect that. I DO share the belief that marriage is a solemn vow to be held until death. It has NOTHING to do with the law or the piece of paper for me.

I deeply value the insight and help I've received and the friends I've made on this forum, but there are those whose positions I don't always agree with, and that doesn't make me a wayward. My marriage is over. All that remains is a couple signatures. I guess if Coho has an epiphany and won't sign because suddenly her marriage means the world to her, I'll eat my words and come clean as a dirty WS.

Don't pull punches, that's fine. I know most of you are well-intentioned. I won't hesitate to state when I think you're wrong, as I'm sure anyone else would do here. I'm not defending dating this early on as a good idea, but I will not accept that it's cheating. I will not cheat.

Zen,

You and I agree on many points. Many.

Sleep.

Let's all talk tomorrow.

Hmmmm, I just caught something in my last couple paragraphs. The point is, I can tell these people my marriage is over, and they believe it. Why wouldn't they? That's exactly what all the WS say. So waiting until the marriage is ended legally makes it nice and clean and tidy so that a lie is not possible. I'll concede that too.

and you did good trying to save your M and your family.

Ha, it's still early here on the west coast.

I'm still stuck back on "she's living with OM in his apartment"

WTF? I thought she was at her mother's house? I'm sure you have your lawyers making sure your children are protected, right?

Yeah, I'm trying not to think about it. It's only about a mile from my house and I can see it from the freeway every time I pass. It's extremly unnerving that she just traded the old one in for a new one. I mean I don't know for SURE that she's there, but she's not at her mom's. I've seen her leaving there, and can only assume. She's taken the kids to her mom's a couple times and she either calls to confirm, or I call a couple times a day to confirm. Her parents help keep me posted too. Yes, legally, the kiddos come first. I will do anything to keep that man out of their life.

I'm sorry that you are unable to see that we were trying to help...That's a shame... Perhaps someday you will be able to see...

Mrs. W

Zen - one of the raw wounds that most of the men who are betrayed in their marriages share is access to their children. Why should they lose custody when their wives cheated on them, didn't give a rip about the stability of the home their children would grow up in... Why should they only get to see their children 50% of the time because of a cheating spouse?

So here's the reason why I object to expanding the definition of marriage. Your children NEED a father. And a mother. And unfortunately, through Coho's choices they will not have both. They will not have role-models for resolving differences unselfishly. This is not your fault. In fact, you moved heaven and earth to prevent that loss to them. But at least you are there. And hopefully, you will give yourself time to heal the wounds caused by Coho's betrayal of you, and even of her previous husband without your permission - she lied to you about the nature of her relationship with him and used you to betray him against your will. She wounded you both ways. By using you. Then abusing you.

If given time, you will know what a healthy relationship is. Then perhaps your children will have a hope of having a healthy mother in their lives. To attract a mentally healthy woman, you have to be a mentally healthy man.

We should be tightening the definition of marriage, not expanding it for that very reason. We should be able to sue waywards for damages and the years of therapy that their SELFISH "it doesn't hurt anybody so why shouldn't I be happy?" attitude causes their children and their former spouses. We should have AT FAULT divorce only. Adultery or abuse - very tightly defined. All other cases, we should be putting those irreconcilable differences in time out and make the parents grow up and consider someone else's needs and feelings before they can come out of time out.

When we loosen the definition of marriage, we no longer hold the ideal of a man - a father - and a woman - a mother BOTH raising children. Instead its two of one and none of the other, or one of one and none of the other. I CANNOT TAKE THE PLACE OF MY HUSBAND in the life of my son. No matter how competent I am. He needs a MAN in his life. And no other competent woman could either. My husband cannot take the place of me in my son's life. Gay marriage reduces the needs to a child to "he'll adjust or she'll adjust". Doggone it. He shouldn't have to adjust. Little girls and boys need both genders.

This is not a moral issue. It's not a hate issue. It's a child issue. We have too many children growing up without functional adults of both genders in the home, in legal, committed relationships, which are bound to the child! Why on earth would we skew it further for them? Don't we have enough evidence that this isn't good for children? Drugs and alcohol dependence, gangs, cutting, depression, suicide? Why would we legally break the ideal family further?

Coho should be forced into mandatory sterilization for what she's done to her children. Stop forcing children to compensate for her selfishness!

I hope at some point COHO can sit down and answer why she couldn't be faithful and truthful to you!! You two will be intertwined together thru your kids for a long time....growing up issues, school, graduation, marriages and grandchildren. Does she also want to lose the respect of her children when they grow up and learn about this? Have separate birthday parties, perhaps not even be invited to their weddings? The price she is going to pay is steep....I think she underestimates how the children will react.

COHO I know you are reading this...sit down and really think about what you are doing!! Your marriage may be over but start thinking about your kids future!!! Dump this POS!! Be by yourself for awhile and focus on your kids!!!

KaylaAndy, I don't entirely agree about gay marriage strictly speaking, but that is a really thoughtful argument and I appreciate it.

I guess I don't really agree with the gender roles being AS important as values of love and honesty and compassion and commitment, if one had to choose. That said, I take my role as a male role model for my son very very seriously. There are not enough good men in the world, and I think this is exactly why. It worries me DEEPLY that my daughter won't have the same in her mom. Eventually she's going to see her mom as she is, not as Coho would want to be seen. I remember that moment in my life with my parents.

I completely agree that having a mother and father in a child's life is extremely important when possible. Unfortunately it doesn't always come out neat and tidy and the percentage of parents who really do it right and give children what they deserve is abysmally low.

I dearly hope she doesn't have more children. I hope she realizes she's not cut out for it. I kind of think she does or she wouldn't keep putting her needs before theirs in such a brutal manner. I talked to her 14 year old son the other day and it completely broke my heart when he asked how I was doing and told me he loved me. What an amazing boy. He must know that his Mom is in a bad place, he's old enough to read between the lines. I don't know what his father has told him, but I have decided not to tell him any details. He invited me to his dad's birthday party.

I heartily agree with most of this sentiment: "We have too many children growing up without functional adults of both genders in the home, in legal, committed relationships, which are bound to the child!" I'll shorten it to "functional adults... bound to the child" and the world would be a far better place.

Speaking of sterilization, that's me. I had the Big V after my son was born. If I ever met someone who wanted kids and I realized I wanted another baby, it'd be tough luck Charlie. I put all my chips into the last go-around. One of the 10,000 betrayals of this thing.

Zen - I'm up late (again) so I thought I'd follow up.

I think the reason I'm so passionate about children needing both genders is as a result of professional experience spanning decades now. And growing up with a father who really didn't want to show up - and the resulting "daddy hunger" that created in both of his daughters... I know the price I paid to have a no-show father who was there but only in a brutal abusive way. At least after I was eight years old or so. Before then, my dad was a daddy I adored, and forgave many of his abusive outbursts toward my mother - just a few scenes and years later though, I had come to see him as a monster... And how that made me vulnerable to neglectful boyfriends and predatory old men... And my sister - same battle, different outcome - three marriages later, she is married to a decent man, but she's had to renegotiate her moral compass that was also part of our crazy childhood - I got the compass, she got the pain of not having so balanced of a compass. It tilted based on her pain and it's never come back to center since.

That's the price of a daughter missing a daddy. And then talk about sons. One brother lost to drugs; another lost to bitterness of another sort, and another never cut the apron strings out of protection for our mother.

Then there's what I experienced professionally. Three different careers and volunteering with my church in youth programs. I know the price children pay for not having BOTH a mother and father. Functional is a better ideal but we have to start somewhere.

There's so much dysfunction out there it's amazing that any of us have sane relationships. But it can get worse. Watch and see as gay marriage is legalized and we have one more generation slip away from having both genders in the home. It will happen in our lifetimes. I don't know if society can recover. We've got to prop up the ideal somehow.

Zen - I encourage you to get to the point where you would never in a million years bring another Coho into your life - heal that part of you that ever saw an appeal there - that knight in shining armour or whatever it was. Then you will be ready to filter out the relationships that would bring more harm to your children.

Zen: Want you to know I have been keeping up with your thread. I feel for you my friend. Hang in there...

You are doing the right thing for Zen and your children.

I'm going to disagree with you, because you are no longer strictly talking about gay marriage. You are talking about gay adoption, since gay marriages don't produce children (sperm donors/surrogates notwithstanding). Needless to say I am on ZenWolf's side on this issue, because I see gay marriage as an equal rights issue. The government should not have the power to legislate religious beliefs, which is really the foundation of the movement against gay marriage. Thats about as un-American as it gets. Freedom of religion is synonymous with freedom from religion.

Back on topic, I would also recommend that Zenwolf hold off on dating until the marriage is finalized. I agree with Zen that cheating is the "violation of the agreed rules of the relationship", and it really doesn't matter if you are married, dating, or legally separated. Its the promise to each other that matters. That being said, Zen needs to remember that the position he is in now is really the same position his wife was in when they started dating. She was just as sure that her marriage was dead. I think its very unlikely and I wouldn't recommend he give another chance even if she did radically change, but Zen, I think you should protect your own honor here.

After I discovered my wife's second affair, I knew without a doubt I was done with her forever. She had been deployed and I already had 7 months of separation between us. The second affair cauterized the wound left by the first and she was literally dead to me. I had no residual feelings for her, other than anger at being kept like a pet. I could have gone out dating, knowing that I would never, ever go back to her, and you would never have been able to convince me that I was cheating on her. But I'm of the opinion that there is no point to dating, if you are not looking to turn that into something more. And the type of woman I would want to have a relationship with, would never date a married man, even if he was just counting the days until the divorce was final and had no contact with his WW. So I waited, because I would not have attracted women that I could trust. Plus, I get to say that from the time I started dating her to the time our divorce was final, I only slept with 1 woman. So, I won't make any of the faith-based pleas about the definition of marriage. I just say protect your own honor and take the steps now to make sure your next relationship is with a woman who you can trust.

The point is, each and every one of us could use some time, alone, with OURSELVES. No one does this any more; we just navigate through life, never taking the time to sit down and think. Know ourselves, reflect on life, look at the mistakes, learn from them, ponder the future and all its incarnations, determine our moral and ethical bearings (especially for our kids' sakes, as they will adopt ours as their own)...

Zen, you have another 50 years ahead of you. Concentrating on yourself and learning to be ok with who you are...even if it takes a year or two before you look for another mate - it's like taking 4 years out to do college, so you'll be an engineer ($$$) instead of a gas station attendant (1/2 $) for the next 50 years. Well worth the sacrifice.

Thank so much for the thoughtful responses.

One note, I don't think Coho was dead sure the marriage was over when she cheated. I think it was cheating, plain and simple. She knew that I was 100% in love with her and committed to her, and if I'm to believe her, she said many times during recovery attempts that the marriage wasn't dead for her and she still loved me. But maybe she was lying. I'll never know. A difference is that I would have zero problem telling her that I went on a couple dates, and sadly, I think it would ease her guilt more than anything. Maybe that's reason enough not to.

Anyway, yes, I know it's not right. It feels like a binge. It gets tiring always doing the right thing.

I agree, I need to concentrate on me.

Yes it does! But it beats the alternative at the end of the day.

My H is always encountering trouble at work because he IS ethical and not a snake, while all those snakes keep getting ahead of him in line. So I have to keep telling him, 'at least you can look at yourself in the mirror without having to justify your actions.'

ZW,

I just got caught up on the flury of activity on your thread over the past 24 hours. I have just one tid-bit of advice ... after the pounding you took over the original status of your M to Coho (which I defended from YOUR perspective) ... it is probably best to keep your dating (or non-dating) life to yourself ... or share it offline with some trusted fellow BH posters. You simply don't need the grief from the "black & white" crowd ... when you're dealing with varying shades of gray.

FWIW, I happen to agree completely with your thoughts on the matter, but it is a lose-lose proposition to discuss such matters on this forum. I've been D'd before myself, and I didn't need the government to tell me when I made that commitment, and I didn't need the government to tell me when that commitment was irretreivably broken. There are simply times when laws and morals don't necessarily reflect each other.

Personally, I think starting to LIVE your life again, as soon as possible, will have a great impact on your confidence, self-esteem, ego, and general outlook on the future.

Now making major life altering decisions should probably be put on hold until you've processed everything you've been through, but enjoying the adult companionship of others, within the bounds of complete honesty, is a good thing for your personal recovery.

From my perspective, you have a pretty solid moral compass. We have all made poor moral choices at one point or another, but if you learn from past mistakes, they can become just minor glitches on a otherwise basically sound compass. FWIW, I think you will be fine just following your own instincts moving forward ... just keep those parts offline, if you choose to keep MB as a support system.