Karmarose,

You are not being helpful.

In fact, you are being very hurtful to a person that has admitted his mistakes, has done his best to follow MB principles, and apologized to the betrayed H.

Please, try to be helpful.

Zen, I hope you are doing okay. God forbid that you had coffee with someone. I agree that it probably wasn't the best choice, and something you need to stay far away from until you get yourself on a more even keel, but I guess that is considered an A on these boards, and I know about the last thing you need is to be beat up.

We are all a work in progress. And even Jesus forgave the adulterous woman. I don't think she was being stoned for going out for coffee with someone.

Best wishes,

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Hey Zen isn't sleeping with them. He is entitled to have friends. Even friends that like him romantically.

Oh believe me, if I were having these dates even 2 months ago, I would have called it infidelity. I do take those boundaries very seriously. These were dates, although on a very platonic level. I won't rationalize that. I'm just saying my marriage is done. It is nothing but a label on a paper for me and that's all that matters for my conscience. It is not at all analogous to Coho's behavior and even she would agree with that on her craziest of days. If marriage is defined by the binding power of my marriage certificate on this forum, then maybe you are right, I should not post here.

Thank you for defending me, none-the-less.

But back to the issue at hand Zen. I worry about any dates for you right now--casual or not. My wish for you after reading your story here, is that you allow yourself time to process the effects of Coho's lying and infidelity, and grieve for the loss of your marriage (which is different than saying you should grieve for Coho--I don't think you should offer a moment's grief there!).

I think that you will know in your heart when you are whole and healthy enough to move on.

He had months to process before she moved back. Read his old posts. He was a lot worse off back then. He is moving forward. I think he needs interest shown in him by female friends. I believe it's good for his self esteem, and actually makes him stronger when dealing with Coho.

Yes, I am going to be grieving the marriage for a long time I think. It's very very acute right now. I grieve for Coho too, but it mostly has to do with what her decisions will do to her well-being. That makes me sad.

What a pretzel logic filled, out of context CHEAP SHOT!!!

It appears that you and the Mrs. are stirring in quite a pile here, and got most of it on YOURSELVES.

I, too, would encourage ZW to employ the ignore feature ... and I think I'll follow that advice, also.

My Rev

"pretzel logic"???

Pretzel logic = Zen adamantly stating his desire to protect his children from the current OM when not once in his life did he think Coho's now 14 year old son needed to be protected from him.

Pretzel logic = Anyone thinking Zen is better or different than the current OM. ESPECIALLY anyone that shares Zen's belief paradigm. (edit to add: I personally think that Zen COULD be better than Coho and likely the better choice of parent for those kids...IF he gets his thinking right...that's why I'm trying to help him)

Again, my post was intended to demonstrate that situational morality based solely upon feelings is simply folly. I understand ignoring me might be the best call lest anyone vested in antinomian ethics (wayward thinking) face the indefensible.

In addition, y'all can go on and on about how Zen was tricked into this relationship and they were separated and all but way before this whole affairage issue blew up on this thread Zen posted something to the effect of that he now understood how Coho's first husband must have felt and what he went through when he had his affair with Coho. It's only later, when he was in damage control that the rationalizations and justifications started "piling" up. You and I have both been here long enough to know waywards lie.

While there certainly is a "pile" here I thought I'd offer help to those that are trying to pick it up by the clean end. (hint: you can't)

Mr. Wondering

Oh god, another email war with COHO. Must make myself stop. I will go mad at any moment which will be a welcome relief.

Zen, do NOT let Coho engage you! The great thing about email is that you can simply choose to not reply or better yet, delete it unread.

Mr. Wondering: It was my impression that Coho initially deceived ZW in the beginning stages of their relationship. There was probably a time when Zen realized that Coho had not told him the whole truth and that she was in fact, still married. And in a strict black/white sense, Zen *was* the other man. Zen was also by his own admission, pretty inexperienced on the relationship circuit. It appears he had the bad luck to run into a barracuda on one of his first ventures into the ocean.

No, it was an affair, I knew it was wrong. Now I'm paying.

Well, consider you just got nicked by the Karma Bus then.

However, from here on in, you know your values, so stand strong!

THIS I understand Zen...I can empathize with this...Adultery has terrible consequences...Which is the chief REASON that we are posting to you...I KNOW the pain of those choices, and I KNOW that my best thinking got me there, and I knew that my thinking had to change to keep me and others around me safe...That is what we've been trying to tell you...I know the delivery of that message isn't pleasant, but I also know how rewarding it is when you do change your thinking...

Mrs. W

It's not that I'm trying to escape my bad decisions, but I still think my marriage was worth fighting for, if nothing else, because of the kids. I simply don't agree with much of your black and white thinking. Ourhouse's assesment is spot-on accurate. Does it make me blameless? No. Just as the OM in my marriage isn't blameless, but in the shades of gray that exist in all situations, Coho is by far the bigger problem. Yes, I've payed for my poor judgment and insecurity. I'm still paying. My children will pay.

Don't let the self-righteous beat you down.

Let me share some of the best advice I've received here at MB, by IMHO, the BEST that MB has to offer.

At about the D-Day + 8 month mark ... as is normal ... I was overcome by a bout of pure RAGE ... it was like "anger squared". I was just mad at the whole situation, and without rehashing the details, was PISSED at FogFree.

Anyway, during one of my MB rants, JustLearning posted something to me that struck a chord ... (paraphrasing) "The measure of a person's character is not defined by their mistakes, but by how they respond to those mistakes".

You see, at that point, the anger was normal and for 8 months, with very few exceptions, FogFree had been the model FWW. Other than this one major life scr3w up ... FogFree had led as near a spotless life as possible ... and quickly owned her actions and started ACTIVELY making amends.

JustLearning was right ... given the whole body of her life, it would be wrong to define her based on this one abheration of her character, and I see you in the same light. You made a mistake, you've owned it and I think you've learned a lot from the experience. Therefore, based on only this one issue, I think it is unfair to define you because of a single mistake made largely due to being inexperienced in relationships.

Based on what we know from you and Coho ... it appears that other than this one mistake, you have been a quality husband, father, citizen and THAT is what should define ZW.

I agree!

My thinking wasn't always "black & white" Zen...Fuzzy gray thinking ( ie a "live & let live" attitude..."moral relativism"...being an "open-minded liberal") is HOW I got to waywardland...I wanted out - I wanted to be a strong moral guide for our dd - I did NOT want her to end up morally confused...Realizing that there are moral absolutes helped me immensely...

Good Luck...

Mrs. W

Lovely post MyRev.

I totally agree with all you have written, especially about JustLearning.

Zen, what is Coho wanting these days? Is it worth going dark about?

Oh, she's not doing anything particularly horrid other than continuing her affair and immersing herself in rationalizations. I'm telling her that I have less than zero respect for her relationship and her decisions and go on and on about why. She keeps trying to tell me that she is making better decisions now, trying to put her life together. Today she said that she will never cheat again. Ha! I tell her that it is like trying to quit heroine while living with your dealer. She won't listen. Why would she now? Why do I try? Yes, I need to stop engaging. I just wish a little bit of something would slip through the cracks of her brain. The fog is pretty darn thick though. At least she still says she's sorry and what she did was wrong. If she went back on that, while it wouldn't be surprising, it would be immensely painful.

She wants us to be friends. Crazy.