I don't understand this at all. I enjoyed church as a kid. Sure it wasn't as much fun as staying home to watch tv, but frankly I didn't think that was an option so that wasn't a problem.

But the things going on at church were not so unpleasant that I dreaded it on its own accord. In fact, there were other kids there and we sang songs and made things and listened to Bible stories... Really and truly, what's not to like?

Unless there's someone else planting the idea in their head that it isn't fun and that staying home is an option.

I'm totally confused by what you're saying.

I DO agree with you about the logic. I was just saying that you seem, from your posts, to have instances where the kids' happiness comes before what you want them to do. Or rather, there's a certain lack of structure inherent in having a H who won't discuss anything. Like the kids coming outside on their bikes, when you thought they might be coming outside to go to church. But you didn't clear it with H; you waited to see what would happen.

I'm saying that it is your H who is planting the idea in their heads.

If your church is that much fun, great. But by not sitting down and ironing this out, you're getting exactly what you don't want - no unified front in front of your kids. So naturally, they're going to work their dad to talk him out of going to church so they can ride bikes.

JMO

Yes, Jayne, I was responding to your response about being clueless. For me, YMMV, when I get frustrated, I remember I have a plan, verify whether my actions are in line with my plan, and then I feel better, because the rest of it is not mine to own. The part where I was frustrated is that I temporarily get frustrated about things that are not mine to own. Or more often, I’m not being O&H, when that is part of my plan. So I can correct that with being O&H. So that’s why I thought, if I ask you what your plan is, and then you think about it, and make any adjustments, then you’d feel better. Sounds like I was mistaken. So I’m really glad that you’re going to talk to Steve again. That Plan A, did you clear it with him when you spoke? Or were you still at the information gathering stage?

I love when my kids want to go to church, too, and I tell them that. “Guys, last week, you all gave me a hard time about going to church together. Tomorrow, I’d love it if you guys wanted to go to church. What would make you enthusiastic about that?” Usually they want to get there in time for the doughnuts But sometimes there is a problem I can fix, like DD8’s church shoes are too tight and she needs a new pair. Or she’s outgrown her favorite church dress, but we can find another one she can wear. Or her favorite outfit is in the laundry. A lot of easy fixes. Do y’all have doughnuts there? Before my MiL passed away, we used to all go to breakfast together before, or lunch after. Would your kids like that? Maybe there’s a playground you could take them to after?

I totally get what Cat’s saying, and I’m not in any way going against that. You told them they are going already. But the negotiation gets your family to the enthusiasm you’re looking for, too. And you’re teaching them valuable skills for later in life, to look for what they would enjoy about something, instead of seeing it as all-or-nothing, black-and-white.

Edited to add, instead of seeing it as your way or my way.

*sigh* ME TOO!!!!!!!!!!

Hence the whole thing about, what do I tell them when H stays home... which you interpreted as me saying they get to choose....


They didn't "work" him. They would've got into the car if I asked them to. I didn't want to.

I'm not you, cat. Just because it would've been important enough to you to demand it, it wasn't for me. For several reasons, which will have to wait for now. I gotta run.

IMHO I deserve 2x4s for not taking personal responsibility... but I think not for the things y'all are mentioning. I'm trying to give consideration to what you're saying, but it really seems you've misunderstood. And I don't have time to post a lot right now. I'll be back later.

The BEST church is one where they teach God's Word and have a lot of programs for kids, moms and dads, teens, old people, retirees, mid-lifers, singles, recently divorced, unemployed, MOPS, outdoors persons, campers, fisherman, SAHMs, preteens,business men and women, grandparents. poor folks, rich folks, married couples, new believers, long-time believers, Bible classes from beginning to advanced for4 all ages...

The SECOND BEST is one where they have any of those programs and teach God's Word.

The THIRD BEST is where they teach God's Word but have no programs at all.

Mark, ITA.

Except for the part about MOPS. Not sure what MOPS are: Members of Personal Sex? Mothers of Prenatal Singletons??? Moms on Prozac Sleep???

Anyway, I think your advice was great and I tried following it. Now I'm getting blasted for NOT demanding H go with me and the kids.

Cat, *I* don't have a problem speaking my mind. The opposite, in fact. I'm trying to learn to hold my tongue more. (Well, not actually *hold* my tongue, that would have me speaking like Jim Kirk having an allergic reaction to Bones's shot! LOL) Anyway, encouraging someone like yourself to speak her mind to her husband is good, but that doesn't mean that's the advice that all wives need.

I said if I was perfect, I'd get up early enough and get the kids ready myself and go to church with or without H. Expanding on that: I'm NOT perfect. Meaning, I'm not a morning person. (Ok, here's me, warts and all. You will prolly now find entirely different things to 2x4 me over, with good reason.)

Ok. My H isn't bad, he's actually quite nice. One thing he does is, since I'm NOT a morning person, he fixes the coffee in the morning. Even though I'm the ONLY person in the house who drinks coffee. He fixes it for me. He also usually fixes breakfast, and he also does the first round of waking up the kids on school days.

And on weekends, he doesn't just fix coffee, he fixes CAPPUCCINO. Yum!!!!

So....... you might say, he spoils me Monday-Saturday, and so on Sunday when he sleeps later, I'm less inclined to get going early enough to get us all to church on time.

When I said he does little things that don't promote us getting to church... *blush* one of those things is that he doesn't fix the coffee early enough. Another is that he isn't pushing the kids to get ready for church as hard as I would have him do.

Personal responsibility: If I really wanted to get to church and get the kids to church, I should be able to get going with or without coffee... or prepare coffee myself and get us going.

I don't think it's in God's will that I badger my H into going to church. I certainly don't think it's good to have an AO or even a SD to get everyone to go to church. Seems rather hypocritical IMHO. Like in the parable, if you go to the altar and you have something against someone, leave your offering and go make things right with that person, and THEN come offer your offering. The offerings God wants IMHO are a good spirit, a humble spirit; not a resentful spirit and not going to a certain building for the sake of going.

So that's why I didn't go out there and demand that H and the kids go to church with me.

As a matter of fact, we were already going to be late enough that I was feeling less inclined to go. I didn't want to walk in late, again, and especially on Mother's Day; and I didn't want to go with the kids dressed the way H dressed them (personal responsibility: if I'd gotten going earlier, I could've made sure the kids had clean, unstained, untorn clothes to wear). I was also thinking of cat's suggestion that we go off by ourselves, and I was thinking I might prefer that. So much so, that I took my Bible with me on my way to the car. I don't usually bring my Bible to church when we're just going to worship service, because they project the words onto a screen so bringing a Bible feels to me like I'm doing it just for show. But I took my Bible this time, in case I just drove somewhere and read and prayed.

Also, on the way out the door, I mumbled "bye." I wasn't sure if I wanted H or the kids to say, "wait, we're coming too!" but I didn't want to just "storm" out without a word, that would've seemed as angry as coming out and demanding they come too.

I waited a couple minutes to see if anyone else was coming, and that's when the kids came out. If I'd told them to get in the car, they would've. By then, I was really looking forward to just driving along the canyon and finding a nice spot to read and pray.

So, you see, you thinking that I was afraid to speak up and was holding back when I really wanted to demand that they go with me, is inaccurate. If I'd wanted the kids to go, they were right there and they would've gotten in if I'd told them to. H may have even gone as well, if I'd told him to; he was dressed before me, and was dressed as nice as he ever dresses for church. But I didn't want to force him to go. If he wasn't going willingly, then I honestly and truthfully didn't want him to go.

And by then, my imperfect self was more worried about the embarrassment of walking in late, and I was looking forward to driving and reading and praying.

So, 2x4 me for not taking the responsibility myself of seeing to it that we are all dressed and ready to go on time. 2x4 me for waiting for H to fix cappuccino rather than fixing coffee for myself. 2x4 me for expecting H to make such an effort into us getting to church when he is actually opposed to going. But don't 2x4 me for not speaking my mind, when the things you want me to say weren't my mind.

Jayne, I'm sorry for gettng so under your skin. Obviously we're on different pages today. I'll just leave for now.

MOPS = Mothers of PreSchoolers

Have you read Boundaries or Boundaries In Marriage, both by John Townsend and Henry Cloud?

Part of the trouble you are having is that your husband doesn't have a problem and your kids don't have a problem with getting to church together because you have made it YOUR problem.

The trick is to find a way to make it THEIR problem so that THEY might be willing to help solve it. This needs to happen BEFORE Sunday morning and BEFORE the issue comes up. The reinforcement happens when nobody but you is ready to go on time. You then decide if you will go alone OR if you will go back to bed and let them figure out that THEY need to be ready to go if THEY want to go to church and that MOM is not going to be the one to run all morning just to make sure everyone is happy with the decision to go to church.

Your kids, assuming they are young enough to just tell them and make it stick, you can TELL that they will be getting up at ___:00 in the morning and give them the order in which they should shower and get ready to go. Your husband you can ask on Saturday night before bed if he wants to go to church in the morning with you and the kids and if he says "Yes" you tell him that you (all) have to leave by ___:30. Assuming he says "Yes", maybe ask him what time he wants to be in the shower in order to be ready by ___:30. Since he usually gets up before you do and enjoys making breakfast ask him to have breakfast ready for the kids by ___:00 so everyone can get ready to go. If he balks in the morning about going, tell him "We'll be home about 12:30" and go help the kids get ready to go.

If he says "No" then you get up, get the kids ready and if he challenges you about it tell him "You said you weren't going to go this morning" and go help the kids finish getting ready to go.

You don't debate the issue. You don't nag him. You don't try to be HIS Mommy as well as the kids. Let him decide and if he won't go, then he doesn't go.

Now if the problem is WHERE you should go, ask him to pick a place to visit and tell him that as long as the church meets certain guidelines (see my post above) then you are willing to go where ever HE is comfortable in attending. Have the discussion at some time other than on Sunday morning.

Living in our house right now are myself, my wife, DS23, DD35 and her D4. Grandpa makes it to church every Sunday except if he is attending or speaking somewhere else for the day since Grandpa handles the sound for the worship band. Grandma makes it almost all the time because Grandma helps with the media stuff on Sunday mornings. We BOTH have keys and often arrive as much as 30 minutes before anyone else is there (even the pastor and the worship band arrive later) and sometime lock the door on the way out. GD4 goes almost every week because Grandma and Grandpa get her there and she loves Sunday School because her Aunt D (SIL) is her teacher and she LOVES her (great)aunt and she loves seeing the other kids and learning about bible stories.

DS23 makes it about 5 times per year. DD35 makes it about every third Sunday. They are adults and it is up to them to get to church on time if they want to go. I stopped nagging them when they quit calling me Daddy. It took my wife a little longer. BTW, on Sundays when everyone makes it we often end up with 4 cars in the parking lot because we all get there at different times.

But then we're weird because church is a priority to us.

Mark

No! I wasn't trying to run you off! I've been putting off returning to work because I keep checking back to see what input you have with the new info!

Just because I think you were off-base doesn't mean I don't still want to hear from you. I just think you didn't have all the info. You may have also been identifying too much with me, putting yourself in my position... if anything, I may be more like your H, talking too much.

I was worried that I may have come off too harsh or too defensive, but I hoped not.

Anyway, I can't keep clicking "refresh" anymore, gotta go get the kids...

ETA: really gotta run... but thanks for posting, Mark, I'll read it later.

Jayne, regarding the coffee, maybe it might help to look into getting one those new single serving coffee makers? It makes coffee so much easier, and probably isn't too bad cost wise if your the only one drinking it anyways.

Even at that, if you have or can get a regular coffee maker that has a timer on it, then the coffee will be ready when you get up regardless of whether H does it or not.

This wouldn't take away your H's habit of making you coffee either, he can still bring the cup to you 6 days a week.

Jayne,

Find out within yourself what you're craving...

is it spiritual intimacy with DH?

fear abatement?

social intimacy?

family commitment?

Is there something in you that you're not listening to? (I'm thinking here of your craving conversation...again, not all you...just know when you hit a certain level, it can't be all him.)

I was very much like you, btw...and I switched over into being a morning person.

And I love your DH's act of love six days a week...very special, non-functional, a sure I-love-you.

LA

Slow posting from bberry.

Pretty cool tho goin down hiway en route vancouver (H driving) and u guys r with me!

Its like I get to take yall with me on a date w/ H so I have someone to talk to!

Called steve h yestermorn. Ears you'll NEVER guess what he told me to do.

Be H&O. When H says he doesn't wanna hear it say its important. Respectfully disagree w suggestion that it shouldn't be disussed. Share again I feel frustrated but respectful not nag.

Short version.

Ears LA why yall not tell me bout H&O and respectful negotiations instead I got ta pay SH to tell me!

Lol

But hard to share such things w DS7s in back seat.

LOL. Read my last post to LA on my thread. It's almost the same topic. I think I have discovered that O&H is one thing and it's a good thing. But the expectation of a certain response--that's a bad thing.

Cool, jayne! Keep us posted!

Jayne, still out of town? I've been very patient (okay maybe not so patient) waiting to hear about your shift from settling to marriage-building again.

Aw, ears..... *hugs*

We got in about 3:30 a.m. last night/this morning. I've got a lot of stuff to do catching up at work, dontcha know I don't have time to delve into my own stuff? I only have time to critique other folks! LOL

J/K. I have some things I really need to do at work, but when I can think about things without feeling guilty for ignoring my other responsibilities, I'll update - responding to the questions, about the phone call with SH, about the trip.

(It really is faster to offer opinions on other folks's threads, than to explore my own stuff, which may make me emotional and may distract me from work for longer than intended.)

Jayne, when would be a good time to check back?

Ooooh... I've got a work-related dinner tonight, then a 2-day conference that is thankfully local. I'll try to post briefly tonight, but prolly won't post anything long until after Wednesday.

*hugs* Does that mean you are enthusiastic about posting an update Thursday? What would make you enthusiastic