So as not to threadjack Dude's thread, I thought I would answer a couple of questions over here.

One question was asked about what was different with my husband when I took him back after his affairs.

To give a little history, we have been married almost 34 years. Back when we first got married, we had the very stupid idea that marriage was more free-flowing, and loose, than we knew it to be just a few short years later. We thought that it might be okay to have a "little" sex, without emotional attachment, outside the marriage, maybe. We did not do this at all at first. But I met a guy who was attractive, and decided to go for it. I immediately knew it was a bad decision, and this ONS made the understanding for both of us that this would not happen again.

Or so we thought. See, my H and I didn't really discuss it again, because we just sort of agreed that the whole idea wasn't what we thought it was, that it was a bad idea, and that we didn't want that in our marriage after all. Case closed, no need for further discussion. This was, the SEVENTIES, and we were adults who were MODERN and could handle this. We did, for about four months, and my husband had a ONS with a girl he met. That was when we both knew that this whole idea really WAS for the birds. We swore it off FOREVER and EVER. Never ever ever.

Things were good for us for awhile, about two years. We moved, had a kid. Then, my H gave me the "I don't love you, never did love you, never will love you" speech and walked out the door. He left for another woman that he did not have an affair with, but wanted to pursue. I figured the marriage was over. Then, he came home again, only to stab me again that very night. He was a complete mess when he came back.

He told me that he loved me, and that he completely lost everything when he walked away. He had dreams and ideas of life without responsibilities, without a wife, without a kid, without having to answer for anything or anyone. That i was there all the time, and he felt like it was all an anchor, he couldn't be "free" to be himself, or pursue whatever it was he wanted to do or be whenever he wanted to. Then, once he was out there, he realized that without me and our child he really was empty - that he had come to be more with us.

Only the night he came home, he was approached by a woman who had been pursuing him the whole time he had been away (a groupie), and he caved in. Like I said, he was a mess.

He at first lied. Only, he couldn't lie well, and I knew. I forced the truth out of him, and got really mad.

And (Dude, if you are reading, you will love this part) I got into our VW BUS and drove away very angry. I drove that BUS down the highway about 70 miles an hour, yelling at him, only he was still at the house. Then I thought, why am I yelling, and why isn't he getting the benefit of my anger? So I turned the BUS around, and drove back. I tore into the driveway, taking out the mailbox in the process. My H later had to pay the landlord for the mailbox, and help to repair it. (THAT, DUDE, is the KARMA BUS. I APPARENTLY DRIVE IT. )

Anyway, I went in, and found him on the floor, crying and completely devastated. He knew it was over, and that the last nail was in the coffin. He stood up, I slapped him, and told him that if he ever touched another woman I would leave him in the dust, he would never see or hear from me again, and he would never see his child again. His sacrifice would be EVERYTHING. I asked him what he wanted to do, that his decision was all or nothing - what would it be. He said, "All." And from that day in 1979 until 2005, he was

ALL IN.

I can say our marriage was good, and "normal". We had our weaknesses. But we were honest with each other, and we had a genuinely good rapport with each other. We fought once in awhile, and it was almost always when he overimbibed.

The affair in 2005 occurred during a period of time when my H had begun to use alcohol more than he had ever used it since his previous time - which coincidentally was in 1979 when he left me. We had fought during the summer of 2005 over the booze, which was problematic, and had never been before in the entire course of our marriage. Something was happening with him, and I didn't know what.

Turns out, that something was the other woman. And as the affair heated up, so did the booze, and his disrespect and anger with me.

But there was also another concern that I was not aware of. He had a PSA test that I didn't know about, and he was afraid he had prostate cancer.

Before d-day, I found out about that, and was pressuring him about the cancer testing, and was insisting on a biopsy. He was fighting me on it. So I was pushing, but he was in the affair, and worried that if he had cancer it would result in complete loss of sexual abilities. Can you imagine the conflict? This increased the drinking, the stress, the self-esteem issues. Only I had no idea of the affair.

And then, d-day.

He immediately called OW and the affair was OVER. At first, he did try to tell me nothing was happening, because he did not want to hurt me and he thought I would walk out and never come back.

I thought I would have, too. Only, I had from 1979 until 2005 with him to tell me that this man had changed. He was not a bad person. He was a good man who had honored and loved me.

And I understood that I had my role in setting up the conditions for the affair. I owned my part.

Then, C-day happened, about 2 or 3 weeks later. But there was an immediate committment to the marriage, recovery, and figuring out how to heal the both of us.

And the drinking crap stopped.

That's why I took him back. Of course, it wasn't easy.

Someone else said that their husband had an affair awhile back and they cannot let it go.

That they are destroying their marriage because they cannot let it go, and now it is too far gone to save it.

I would think that it is never too far gone to save, if you are willing to lay down foolish pride and throw yourself on the mercy of someone else.

I have. I have often told my husband how foolish or stupid I have been in my behavior. I can be stubborn and stupid. I can find myself holding onto a position that I have taken just to hold onto it - why? Because I said something, and once I said it, well, I HAVE to defend that position, right?

Right?

I mean, I cannot possibly be

wrong

or

change my mind

or

urp

admit that I was wrong or admit

MUCH WORSE - that HE WAS RIGHT.

Gosh, that would be worse than being burned at the stake.


So I ask you. Would you rather be right, or be married? Seriously?

What I have found myself doing time after time is asking myself, if I had just met my H last week, and were that much in love with him, that silly, smurfy, honey-covered luuuuvvv with him again, how would I react to this situation?

And that's what I do to fix it. Because, really, although that initial honey-covered love feeling has long since passed, I still feel that way about him, deep inside. I just need to look in there and remember that day I fell in love, and then ask the question, "So, SB, how do you fix this with H?" and coming from THAT place inside of me, it's always easy to fix it with him. Because I WANT to fix it.

I come from love when I work with him.

So if you think you can't fix it, reach inside, and come from love.

And somehow, remember, that your husband is NOT the enemy. He is someone you love that you want to reconnect with. Do the things necessary to meet that goal. Don't make excuses not to succeed.


SB

Hi sb-
so nice to read your words again.

and your wise advise.

is it possible that my recovery is so hard because when i think back to the time i fell in love with my H- as me being a needy, broken person- attaching myself to an abusive man without me knowing it?

i dont get those lovey, fuzzy feelings when i think badk.

i get the thoughts that i wish i wasnt so broken and that i wish i had not put up with being dominated by him for so many years.

so the past does not help me one bit when i try to change my marriage.

the only thing that helps me is thinking he and i have both changed so much - that a new life and marriage is possible.

sf

Ditto. Past sucked, all of it except the time before the wedding. That was bliss. I think I have figured out that GM has been only interested in someone he can subjugate and that was not me therefore all the whores, he could screw em and leave. This last long one though, that baffles me. He let her run him around because he luuuuved her. That one has me quite concerned. When did that change happen and why not with me?

Anyway, I had not responded to you on my thread (gone too much lately) when you were kind enough to write to me so I thought I would here because we are suffering through some very similar circumstances.

The question for me, as applied to what schoolbus has so generously told us, is how do you find that love from so long ago after all these years and all those betrayals to use it for good at this point? Maybe there has not been enough time since discovery? Any thoughts?

sss-
glad to hear from you- sorry to hear you are also suffering.

the love from long ago that sb talks about -i can not find. when we were dating - yes- there was some- but now with my new perspective- i dont see it as real love- and a real relationship.

sf

Hi schoolbus, it was interesting to read your sitch. I see all the times you have stopped in to help others.

You made me think of the past, you made me think of the good times, you made me think. I want my WH back but he has NEVER looked back since he started this A with the plastic pinata.

He was always a honorable ethic guy and in his mind he made a decision that he needs to justify even though she is a dishonorable skank.

We had great times, we had love. You made me think of nights spent talking and laughing. We drifted but I did not think that the oars were gone.

I still hope, I still pray, I still know what needs to be done for me and try and continue to work on that.

Glad you restored your marriage. Pride is a horrible thing and it destroys. Glad you overcame yours.

Just wanted to echo my thanks, SB, for sharing your story and for helping others.

I really pay attention when I find your posts. And from your story, I see that you are WISE and WONDERFUL and WORLDLY.

Keep posting and I'll keep reading and learning.

All I can say is that, I think you are a pillar of strength. I'm sorry for all the sorrow you've seen.
Your story is an inspiration.

Thank you Schoolbus for sharing it.

Sunflower and SSS have endured things from their husbands that I didn't. Their "men" (I use the term loosely) have spent their lives laying down a track record of lies and failure to recognize or even care about their behavior.

The men in their cases had a lifestyle of serial cheating - different from what my H did. When my H stopped and we reconciled those many years ago, he rejoined our marriage and we went forward together as a team. During our separation, I dated other men, because at the time I was very foolish and had absolutely no idea of how to regain the marriage. I was convinced - as was H - that the marriage was over. I waited every day for the paperwork to come (which H said was coming) that would just finalize it. In fact, when H called me on the day he asked to come home, I thought he wanted to meet with me to give me the things to sign to finish it all. Boy, was I wrong. At the time, I was actually in Plan B - before it was even invented. Only, I wasn't working on myself. I did, however, figure out what I did NOT want my "new" marriage to look like.

What we did wrong back then was fail to talk out the situation well enough, and clearly enough. We were able to lay down our pride, recognize our love, and work on our romantic love.

We failed to keep it up. And repeated one mistake - we failed to talk to one another when our feelings were growing dim.


I'm not so sure that I would be able to remain in a relationship with this husband I have now if he were to have lived a life where he had prostitutes for years, or repeated and constant affairs with women over years.

My plan there, if faced with that situation?

I think it might not be MB, but here is what I might think about:

1. I would have a list of the absolutes that I need in my marriage - all of the things that I want my marriage to be. It might include how I wish for finances to be handled, how I wish for the children to be raised (if they were still at home), how I prefer chores to be divided, everything.

2. I would have a list of my emotional needs, and exactly how I like them to be met. This would probably take some time and introspection, but I would get something together.

3. I would make a list of the things H did correctly, and the things I would insist he change or do differently.

4. H and I would meet together. The lists would be discussed.


If any ONE thing was not acceptable to him, then it would be a dealbreaker, and he could hit the highway. I think after multiple, years-long affairs, prostitutes, and then a lack of remorse and failure to lift his end of the recovery weight - if he failed to meet my terms of the marriage rebuilding plan, he can leave. At that point in the marriage, I think it would be


MY CHOICE, not his, about things. I think at that point I would probably be done.


You see, I do believe in unconditional love.

But I do not believe relationships are unconditional.

In the case of multiple affairs and lying to me over years, prostitutes, long term affairs, and failure to repent and own your stuff, my boundaries are - I guess - right there.

SB

They are beyond pillars, they are monuments.

Filed in my head.

I am coming to terms right now with what I need and what I require and what the bottom line is.

I have a thought that I am trying to put together and will post it on my thread when it makes enough sense for me to write it down. It seems a little elusive at the moment but what you have written does help to clarify it some. I seem to be finding a little peace just by figuring it out and I think it will be helpful for me and for GM as well. I hope it might help others in some small way. I am certain it is not original but something I have figured out on my own for my situation and am counting on it, at least for the time being.

Thank you for your story. Every story I read here feels like a gift, every post here on MB is a gift no matter how much it might hurt or help. Thank you.

Schoolbus, your courage and persistence and willingness to share is so helpful.

Or very very stupid, weak, dependent, clueless, dupes, lacking self confidence/esteem, oh yes stupid.

At least that is what the "real" world tells me over and over again. I have yet to figure out if that is correct or not and I guess I will not know until this thing plays out.

Don't feel like a pillar, more like a puddle but thanks. It feels better than what my friends are telling me.

>At least that is what the "real" world tells me over and over again.

The "real" world is full of ca-ca and can all go pi$$ up a rope, imo.

The "real" world is FAR more fake than it gives itself credit for...are you going to give it credit?

I agree the "real" world is full of ca-ca and that is why I do not use "real" world and very uninformed people for help. Fake it is, full of BS and nobody can seem to understand what commitment means anymore. Although I think some of us are far more committed than we maybe should be? I do feel rather stupid here sometimes struggling away at a situation that many think is hopeless, don't know, but we are all here willing to do the right thing. Nope, I give the "real" world no credit but it does make it difficult sometimes when they sit you down and try to make you feel like an idiot for your decisions. As Steve Harley told me, "You can question me but do not ever doubt me." I like that.

EDIT to add Thank you!

SB-
Thanks for your ideas and for recognizing the differences in my situation and SSS's situation. It IS different in so many ways. The only saving grace for me personally is that i knew that my H did not love one of the OW- he was never with just one. I know now that he was/is a very broken man... anyway - i dont want to go into his psychology again.

What i did wrong was that i didnt give him the things he needed and wanted so desperately-
-admiration and
-approval

this was what he got from the OW.

truthfully - i dont know how i could have, based on how he was acting. i didnt have the wonderful references that you have to think of- we were two needy people who didnt know how to be married. i DID know how to love and how to give- but i had no idea of how i should have been treated.

i totally agree with your plan.

my EP plan has all of this in there and it is NON-negotiable. my H has trouble keeping some of the EPs and the POJA- as he is so used to doing waht he wants when he wants to do it- but our MB coach keeps him accountable, as do i. the goal is for him to keep himself accountable, as these behaviors become habits. it is a long process. and herein lies my struggle.

i now do have boundaries - where i didnt have many before. i also have "Plan B" (as Pep calls it ), so i know i'll be ok if we decide to divorce - or if i do.

sf

>I do feel rather stupid here sometimes struggling away at a situation that many think is hopeless, don't know, but we are all here willing to do the right thing.

Other people have been told THEIR situation was hopeless, too...it didn't stop them from doing what they felt was right.

SB - thank you so much for sharing that.