I've created this thread to answer a question that newly asked me in another thread. Others, please feel free to chime and ask or offer information...


newly - I can't say that our situations are entirely similar. Unlike your XH, I didn't want out of the M. I wanted to save it. She was the one who left. I was cooperative up until the day she moved out, and something just "clicked off" inside of me. I felt like I needed space and time away to process. I didn't hate her at that point, but I needed to be awaaaaaaaaaay. Of course, with two children to coparent, I couldn't do that, but I tried to firmly set and strictly enforce boundaries that we'd ONLY communicate w/re to the kids.

Unfortunately, she tried violating all over the place. Showing up at the house unannounced when I had the kids, taking the initiative to change my contact information for me at our son's school, involving herself in things that were between my family and I, etc... She characterized all of this as "helping" though I told her time and time again to stop it.

Another incident (I discussed elsewhere) took place a couple of months ago. Last Christmas my DD asked for an impossible gift; a real live fairy. So I did some research and found out about "fairy doors". They're little doors that people attach to their house or put in their garden to "attract fairies". Kind of whimsical. So I spent days putting together and painting a doll house door for her and presented it to her on Christmas morning. After we installed it we left a little cookie in front of it and when she went to bed that night, I left a trail of glitter throughout her room as though a fairy visited her in the night (fairy dust ) that led to a few little trinkets (toys, coloring books, etc...). We do this every few weeks now. It's something that I hope she looks back on with a little nostalgia. After a couple of months of this, my daughter calls me from her mom's and say's, "Guess what daddy?! The fairy visited me at mommy's house and brought me something! I guess we don't need a fairy door after all!". Grrrrr...

I was also upset that she refused to negotiate any of the statutory stuff in the D. "The state says I can have this, and if you have a problem with it, talk to your attorney.". But she doesn't have a problem asking for extra help from time to time. A few days after she said that, she took the kids in a stretch limo to the airport for a trip to Newport, RI. It was... Frustrating... You may or may not take sympathy with me on that one. Not saying I'm totally right. Just saying that it's another source of anger for me. I feel that she acts greedy and entitled. I get the kids half the time, the CS takes care of more than half of their financial obligations, yet she won't even let me claim one of them on my taxes. It's as though CS is merely the bare minimum and I have an obligation to chip in for any and all the extras that she can think of.

The final straw came at the end of a quick phone call about the kids. She said, "By the way, did you know that your nephew is scheduled for surgery this month?". I did know and I was offended that she would think I wouldn't. I relayed her question to my sister who's remained in contact with her, and my sister was appalled and offended. As though she would neglect to tell me. I think it was her PA way of letting me know that she remains in contact with my family.

What it boils down to for me, is that I'm willing to communicate with her regarding the kids and their needs. If something is happening at school, then I need to know about it. If something is going on medically, then again, I want to know about it. But that's it. I don't want to be friends with her. She has it in her head that we need to be friends in order to be good parents. I don't agree with that at all.

I will attend some neutral events (like stuff for school) that I know she'll be at, but we do not sit together or commiserate. She's finally learned to keep to herself and won't approach me unless absolutely necessary. 95% of our correspondence is via email with the rest phone and maybe text messages.

Last week we had a final knock down e-fight where I told her that unless a sentence begins with "The kids...", or their specific names, I don't want to hear it. No exceptions. She says that she got it, though we've been through it in the past. I fully expect her to try and broach some kind of superfluous conversation with me, then react angrily again when I rebuff her.

One final thing... I do NOT bring any of this into my relationship with my GF. She doesn't want to hear it, and I don't need her to ally with me in my hatred of the XW. I don't want that to be a part of our life together. I recall that you mentioned this was an issue with your XH and his GF. I don't think that's right and it implies something less than solid between the two of them IMO.

Anyway, I hope that I explained that well enough. Let me know if you have any more questions...

newly - I just realized that you asked to discuss this "offline". If you'd prefer to correspond via PM or some other method, let me know.

Thanks for sharing, and I know it's different, but it's impossible to coparent given the level of hatred. It does help to hear another's perspective.
My daughter's counselor also thought my X was PA, without ever meeting him. Perhaps that's the common thread.
My X doesn't even want to know about school activities, much less show up at them. I send him info about the children's events (because he's accused me of not telling him) and it seems to anger him more than provide an opportunity for him to participate.

The fairy dust idea sounds sweet. Your X just picked up on your great idea. That shouldn't diminish your special time with your DD.

I've tried to get him to consider this a business relationship, and communicate in that way, to no avail. If it were up to my X, my children would be involved in nothing. In chorus, they have 2 concerts a year with practice during music class. Even this is too much for him to consider.

Thanks again for your perspective. I feel like my children miss out on so much because one of their parents can't/won't communicate. It's a horrible lesson for them to learn.

newly - I've read some of the challenges that you've faced with your XH over the last year, and I've used your comments to try and be more mindful of how far I should withdraw.

Every year the kids' mom insists that they should get a large party. This isn't how I grew up. When I was a kid, we got one every 3 or 4 years, with the intervening years small celebrations with the family.

Last Nov our DD turned 6 and I attended the party, but it was an incredibly uncomfortable experience. It was held at a place that caters to girls where they get their hair and faces made up and they put on these silly glamorous dresses and do beauty shows, etc... I didn't really step in and join in because it was a girly-girl thing, my DD seemed to be having a great time with all of her friends and her mom was in the middle of it as well. So I hung back and talked to one of the other dads.

Later on, the XW accused me of being a bad father and neglecting our DD because I couldn't stand getting within 10 feet of her (the XW). That just felt manipulative to me and exacerbated my resentment toward her.

From that point forward, I've discussed it with my kids and decided to simply decline to attend these big events. Instead I do a small party at my house with just us. We do a special outing for the day (their choice), I make whatever they want for dinner, and we have cake or cupcakes and candles. They're okay with it. They don't need me at the big parties where they're already occupied by their friends, etc. It's actually an opportunity for me to be MORE engaged with them. The XW just doesn't understand that. It's outside of her realm of experience and expectations and therefore "bad".

Despite refusing to work on things, then left and filed for D, she seems to press for some kind of dotted line (at least) connection between the two of us. I don't understand it at all. She claims that it's necessary for the kids, though I've stated over and over that we can talk as long as it's just about them. She just doesn't understand or respect that I don't want to have anything to do with her.

My X says the first line over and over, but doesn't respond to letters or calls about our children. Like there's a mental block based on the second comment above. There are many issues that truly need to be discussed about the children, but one way communication doesn't work. I've tried every means possible. Even asking to meet with a counselor on neutral grounds to discuss our DD's, but he continually refuses, as he refused to work on the M. He's a conflict avoider. But communication regarding the kids doesn't need to be a conflict, but an exchange of information and concerns.

I've invited my X to every birthday party (except this year). I don't have family nearby, so I always throw a friends party. These are typically at a public place like a gym or roller rink. He showed up once, and they were ecstatic. It didn't matter how much time they spent with him, their dad was there - for them. And they could show that off to their friends. And he's a fantastic skater - so more to brag about for them.
Just being there at events means alot to the kids. I see their faces scouring the audience looking for their dad at concerts, sports and other school events. It's heartbreaking. And it is, and should be about the kids. I fully believe that both parents should have the opportunity to attend every event - whether or not it's on their night. It really is about the kids.

I respectfully ask that you rething your stance on birthdays or other events. Just a drop by would probably mean alot to your DD. With mine, I sense that they want both parents at all events. I believe that it is important to suck it up for the kids.

newly - I agree that it is sad about your X's total refusal to cooperate and communicate, and I can definitely see your frustration. It sounds almost like he's empowered by the opportunity to tell you "no" and refuse things. Being the one who left and his refusal to work on the marriage with you, I don't understand why he's the one who's bitter and angry. Especially to the extent that he'd overtly disappoint his children. They'll remember this pettiness and they'll make him pay for it down the road. Karma will get him when they refuse to see or acknowledge him later on. They're building a life without him and by the time he asks to join in, it might be too late.

That's precisely what happened between me and my dad. He only got interested in me as a person when I became an older teenager and decided it was time to show up in my life and start imparting his "wisdom". :RollieEyes: He would get incensed and bewildered when he'd show up in town, unannounced, and expect me to drop everything so that he could pick me up and lecture me for 4 hours about the ways of the world.

Sorry dad, I've got better things to do. Next time, call ahead...

How much time and effort does your ex spend with them on his own? Does he make any effort to create a life for them just with him? I feel like I do with my kids. My intention is to show them that I'm still active and engaged and it doesn't mean having to hang around on the periphery of things that their mom organizes. I think that's what she was expecting. The idea that I can do things with them on my own without her assistance I suspect came as a shock to her.

For my part, the only party I've missed so far was my DS's 4th last May. I specifically asked him if it was alright for me to miss it as long we do something else together on our own. He actually laid it out for me and said that as long as ONE of us was there (of course), then he was okay. I also asked him after the fact if he was still okay with it and he affirmed that he was. I will do the same thing this November when my DD turns 7. If she asks for me to be there, then I of course will be. Otherwise, I will try to sell her on the notion of two celebrations. That point of view holds a great deal of appeal to them.

Something else... You mentioned that your ex practices conflict avoidance. I think my ex does the same thing. Her previous attempts to work on the marriage were marginal, she didn't like to discuss the state of things or what was on her mind during the marriage, and she refused to discuss or work on it after the fact. She also refused any sort of productive negotiation. Anything not on her terms wasn't open for discussion.

Along with the PA thing, that might be another common thread.

The commonalities do help me understand. And the negotiating point is similar. I didn't see you as angry as you'd mentioned in that post.

It sounds like your X is alot like my X, though different sexes.
I don't know what kind of life he's built with the kids. I fear that it's mainly trying to impress the GF as she believes he is father of the year and her X is marginal. I believe he's a bare minimum father. Perspective is everything, isn't it.

My X is all about blame, and perhaps that's where his anger generates. He's never responsible for anything. It's always someone else's fault. No personal responsibility. It fits into the way I've been told to view him as a 17 YO, a teenager who hasn't matured (other issues led to that definition). A friend has said that both X & GF are like teenagers, and what is most important to them is impressing their GF or BF.

I know my children would like to see cooperation. They know I try hard to work together with their father, and they are the ones who are hurt by his lack of cooperation. I hope you will be able to attend school and sporting events and dance stuff even if your X is there. Mine are a little older than yours, and the kids notice and treasure that both parents can be there - for them.

Oh, I have my moments, believe me. Right now I'm fine and most of the anger has ebbed because of the email exchange we had last week. It's individual things that build over time (a few months) and eventually I feel like she's pushed me too far and I unload on her. She backs off for a while and my anger subsides.

Until she starts to push again... This has become kind of a pattern over the last year.


I suppose my ex thinks the same as you do about yours. I don't fill her in on everything I do with the kids, and apparently the kids don't discuss it much with her either. I wonder if not knowing what's happening on my side is what drives her behavior.

Thanks for helping me to consider and think about that.


In a way, I view my ex like that as well. Maybe not as an adolescent, but as someone for whom appearances and impressions are very important. She's was always worried and stressed about what other people think of us. One of her stated reasons for leaving was that she was tired of making excuses for me. She was embarrassed by my unwillingness to be as social as she is with friends and family. It caused her a lot of heartburn and apparently her family would comment negatively whenever I declined an engagement with them.

Frankly, I found them meddlesome and annoying and didn't care to spend time with them.


Yes, I do understand that and I do attend concurrently when there's no other alternative. Another example is my kids' swimming lessons. They learned how to jump off the diving board and their mom asked them if they wanted to ask me to come to a lesson and see them do this. Instead, I take them to a neighborhood pool and do it with them. I get to see what they can do and interact with them, and I get to do it on my terms, not her's.

Make sense?

It makes sense.

One thing that really bothers me is that X won't participate in things that are important to DD's. Prime examples, 1. He wouldn't take them to the Girl scout father daughter dance. Is it just because I asked, or he couldn't be bothered. It meant that he'd get extra time with the girls, but couldn't be bothered. The girls went with a friend's dad. But they are hurt when he can't bother to attend things.
2. DD wants to play soccer. Every year the form comes home and she begs me to play. I ask her father in writing and in person. He doesn't respond (normal). He'd have to take time out of his weekend with them to take her to games. Now, when I say she begs, it's real. Most of her friends play - on the same team. She feels left out. X thinks I want her to play because I suspect she's afraid to tell her father that this is important to her. So she'll ask shyly and he'll ignore the request. Then I get the begging.
3. Some girl scout events fall on his time. I'm talking twice a year. He will tell the leader he'll take her, but then not follow through, or even call to say they are not coming. This means that she's missed "required" activities which need to be made up.
4. They can attend no birthday parties on his time. He doesn't even have the courtesy to respond to the parents. I pass along the invites, but then I get the calls following up because he's not listed in the school directory.

Think about the stuff above, and whether it is what your X wants or your children want. I know my X believes it is all about what I want. I believe it is/should be about the kids. And no, they don't need to attend every birthday party, but there are tight groups that form even at a young age, and they want to belong and participate. What father wouldn't want to take his princess to the father daughter dance. Even if you don't dance, it's about the child.

Lemme tell you what true seething hatred really is.

My XW has denied me any contact with the only child that I have ever known. He might have only been my stepson, but I considered him mine for the 12 years I raised him.

I really hope there is a special place in h3ll for her.

newly - I think your ex is a [censored]. W/re to your points:

1) I don't understand his reluctance. It's not like you'd be there and involved and he'd have to constantly interact with you. I would definitely be involved with this. What I wouldn't be involved with is something like a joint chaperon duty for a school dance along with my ex. I don't see why my kids would need us both there for something like this. I'd be happy to share things with her. She does one event, I'll take the next. Unfortunately she insists on being at every single event.
2)Again, I think he's being selfish. If you aren't showing up to the games and practices when you know he'll be there, what's his problem. I don't get it.
3) Selfish, lazy, inconsiderate... [censored].
4)Again... [censored]. I take my kids to parties when I have them. I RSVP to them, and make arrangements for the other child if they are not invited. Buying a gift is their mother's responsibility.

I'm not behaving the way your ex behaves newly. My boundary is between my ex and I. Your ex's boundary is between you and your DDs I think. It sounds to me like he associates them closely with you. Not fair to them at all. I'm sorry that you have to deal with this. I'm sorry for your DDs too.

I think it's fathers like him that make it so tough for fathers like me w/re to parental rights and responsibility. I resent his behavior a great deal.

My situation was an extreme version of yours Newly. I'm talking about my 1st marriage. In my case, XH was physically abusive and I basically ran for my life. But he did fight me in court for custody and lost (due mostly to his obvious contempt for the judge's interim orders). In the end I had sole custody and complete say in IF he could see his DS, and who would supervise (he attacked my mom on one of the exchanges while court was still in progress so judge ordered supervised visitation with CIS - which he tried to screw around also). Anyway, despite his initial efforts for custody, he simply abandoned DS. He called once in a blue moon for a couple of years - said he put birthday/Christmas cards & gifts in the mail but none were ever received. He eventually disappeared and I never heard from him again. He recently found DS again on Facebook, but DS is now 20 years old.

This was tough to deal with. I was a truly single mom. I didn't even have a weekend dad and no CS or anything. Plus how to explain to a young boy what happened to his father? He was an infant when we divorced and has no memory of him.

What I did was to nurture as best I could relationships with XH's family, so DS would continue to have a connection to them. I did what I could to provide for him as best as I could and tried to explain to him using age appropriate language when I couldn't. When I did get remarried, at least we didn't have to deal with an X and visitation and all that. Eventually, we forgot about him and DS looked to my new H (now WstbxH) as his dad.

Basically, there is nothing you can do to control another person's actions. If he doesn't want to participate in his children's activities and lives, you can't force him. It is sad and your kids are old enough to ask about it. But believe me it was just as sad when my DS asked why his father never even sent him a birthday card, let alone call or want to see him. Just try to raise them to be better than that. I know it's hard but they will thank you in the end.

Now Pariah, I knew you were an angry dad, and why. And it's awful that you can't see SS. We know there are so many great dads and stepdad's out there. And then there are posers.
I just wanted to better understand the anger, and its source.


My X says he wants the kids more, but his actions don't show it. My kids want to believe it, despite actions to the contrary. He also has a strong contempt for courts and systems. I suspect he's been telling the girlfriend he wants his kids all the time (to please her) but his actions don't follow his words.

There are times it would truly be much easier to have sole custody. My girls love and need their father. The counselor said it will teach them how they want (and don't want) to be treated.

My children see other divorced families that can be in the same place at the same time, and it's hard for them to understand why their family can't. I suck up alot for my kids, and likely always will.

I truly hoped that after 5 years the BS would end.

If there's one thing I've learned to accept, it is that I can not do anything to change the actions of my XW. In my opinion, she is a lousy mother, but I never say anything unless I feel there is some sort of danger,etc. for the kids

Getting angry and argumentative over some of these issues is not worth it. Eventually, the kids figure out who is really there for them. Your actions speak clearly to the kids.

I don't know if I'm talking to myself here or not, but I thought that I'd update this old thread with some new observations and experiences. If nothing else, it might help others at the beginning of their PD journey understand how things -can- develop and evolve. Also, posting and then reading my own thoughts helps me to consider my actions and ideas a little more objectively.

So here we are about 9 months after I started this thread in response to newly's questions over my anger towards the XW. She and I have had a few blow-outs in the intervening months, but I'm proud to report that we haven't had a serious conflict since the beginning of February. That was a minor dust-up that quickly escalated and for which I was roundly criticized by a few people here.

Despites those criticisms, I'm glad that I held my ground since it seemed to mark a turning point my relationship with the X. She even sent me a Happy Birthday text a week later. From her, not the kids. I actually had to ask if it was from her, LOL!

I had a brief flash of anger in late February when I learned we were being audited by the IRS for our tax returns from the previous year. We filed jointly for 07 since we were still legally married that year - our attorneys recommended it. What I didn't know was that she had maxed out her FSA through her work, and then failed to disclose it to the CPA who did our taxes. We took the full stimulus check from the federal government ($1200) which we shouldn't have gotten because of her FSA. So on top of the money I already owed for this year (I don't get to claim either child), I was also on the hook for $512 for last year. Yet my frustration with that was brief and fleeting... I realized that it was an honest mistake, and besides the $48 in interest, it was money that was supposed to be paid anyway, so - easy come, easy go.

Today, while not exactly "friends", we are friendly and amicable. We even cooperate on matters outside the realm of our children. Example: We both have two dogs. I kept the two we got during the M, and she picked up a little dog for the kids a year ago. She took in another dog recently from a friend of her's who is apparently dying from cancer. Traveling is a challenge for the both of us, because it's hard to find someone to care for the dogs, and professional sitters and kennels can be expensive.

We've now entered into a agreement to keep each others' dogs when possible. She had one of my dogs two weeks ago when Jill and I were in San Francisco (her sister kept the other one). I will be keeping both of her dogs this weekend while she goes to Austin with a friend. The prelude to the arrangement even involved me coming to her house and installing a locking latch on her back gate so that she could leave my dog outside during the day if necessary. It was the first time I'd ever set foot on her property; a strange experience.

This last weekend I sent her a text wishing her a happy Mother's Day. She replied, "Thx - same to you Mr Mom". It surprised me.

This detente between us seems to be a relief, not just to us, but to everyone else around us. The kids were visibly happy to see me in their mom's house (even if I never entered more than 4 feet from the back door), and my family is happy that the interaction is relaxed.

I still have very firm boundaries and ground rules I operate from. For example, when I get her dogs on Fri, the plan is for her to leave them behind the gate (that I installed the lock for), and I will pick them up on my way to the kids' schools. She offered me a key to the lock. This is just for the gate, not the actually house. I declined and told her that I am uncomfortable taking possession of any of her keys.

I also make sure to tell Jill about each and every contact the X and I have, up to and including text messages. For example, I let her know that I was sending the X a Happy Mother's Day text. This is partly as a courtesy and because I want to be sensitive to any concerns she has, but it's also to protect myself. We hear all the time about how feelings for an ex-spouse can sometimes reemerge over time. I'm no longer attracted to the X, I don't have any unmet needs that I'm aware of, and I think I have a pretty good idea of -why- I fell in love with her way back when (and why it was an unhealthy foundation to build upon), but the specter of stupidity haunts me.

It's kind of like working with electricity. Having it around can be very beneficial and it makes life a lost easier, but it doesn't come without a cost, and if I let my guard down and don't show it enough respect and caution, it can burn or even kill me. That's also the approach that I take with the X.

Anyway, I just wanted to make the point that amicability and cordiality are possible with the ex-spouse, given a little time, a little self-awareness, and some pretty firm personal boundaries.

It's easier to trust and be open when you're in a position of strength. I hope someone finds some hope or value in this.

I haven't been checking here lately, but wanted to pop in to see what the FB thing was about and found this.

My X is getting worse. The kids are now disclosing the things the GF and X say to them about me. I tell them there is no reason to talk about me and there is no reason for me to talk about them. Communication should be about the kids.
Still no communication. I should say - still one way communication.

I took my girls to the father daughter dance this year. They were happy. He had his chance. They didn't care who took them, just that they went. And I didn't need to dread one coming home crying because dad didn't bother to dance with her.

GF showed up at an important doctors appt. I tried to discuss an incomplete homework project with X and GF said it wasn't the place. Since he never responds, when would be? If you're not married after over 5 (more likely 8) years of dating, then what's up?

I'm trying to teach my girls that people don't need to put each other down. The more people who love you the better.

And happy parents, make happy kids (even separated). Glad to hear you are at a crossroads.

I think it was you seabird that wrote something that irked me a while back. Was it you? Something about X being sick and needing someone to take the kids for a week and MBer didn't want to give up their time to keep their kids? I believe each parent should operate in the best interest of the kids, so if one parent is unable, the other should take them even if they feel put out. How would the kids feel to know their parent doesn't want to care for them?

newly - That was me, and I'm sorry that you were irked, but your characterization of that situation is incomplete and out of context.

I did agree to take the kids for over a week. All I asked was that she watch them for a few hours one Saturday a full week after she had recovered from her surgery - not even an overnight. She hemmed and hawed which had been her typical response since the separation any time I asked for a custody time change. Every time she asked -me- for a time change, I always said yes.

I was beginning to feel taken advantage of. She expected me to help her out whenever she needed. Any request of her was met with much huffing and puffing.

That event marked a turning point. Since then she has become very cooperative with me, and I try to return the favor whenever I can. This is the dynamic we work under; favors, not expectations.

The notion that neither of us wants to care for our children and grossly unfair and, I think, prejudiced by your own experiences. I'm sorry that your XH sucks.

I am not him.

Nor is my fiancee anything like your XH's GF. She is supportive of the kids and helpful with me (without me asking because I don't want to burden her with what I feel is my responsibility). She also understands her boundaries as they relate to the kids. She had no problem when I sent the XW a text message that said simply, "Happy Mother's Day". My fiancee's sister has even stepped in to assist as a babysitter when the kids were out for Spring Break, and neither their mother or I could take the time off of work.

I think that we've developed a cooperative coparenting relationship. This afternoon are all off to my daughter's first ballet recital. I took her to her dress rehearsal yesterday and Jill (my fiancee) did her hair and makeup. The XW bought our DD 2 bouquets; one from her and one from me and Jill and asked me to hold onto them for her.

This is the sort of dynamic we're developing and moving into. I don't think we'll ever have a Bruce Willis and Demi Moore kind of relationship, but at this point, I think we're far, far better than most XM's.