Cat, I understand wanting to protect your daughter and her bf from the actions you project your H could have. At the same time, we get frustrated when we take responsibility for others' actions. You have so much you are working on, that is more important for you to focus on than these other adults who are repsonsible to take care of themselves.

I meant brainstorm a neutral place, like meeting the bf for dinner somewhere public where you don't feel unsafe, where you don't perceive yourself as needing to twist yourself into a pretzel to avoid AOs. Bring your own car. As one option, there may well be hunderds of others.

I love the yoga idea

Your editing job was a...

want to
Actually, no, since the company was waiting for it and I had committed to it. Only a want to in the sense that I could choose how to get it done by the end of that day.

so telling DH briefly, "My mind is full of have to do's right now, to get done today. I enjoyed the movie last night with you because I promised myself I'd get these things finished today."
That's one thing I'll have to push myself for. I have never talked to him like that, nor he me. Maybe I can figure out a way that's not so alien.

You're doing your brilliant editing and he's watching tv (weekend downtime) and when you finish (minding your own stuff, not his about the job he said he wanted to reapply for) that task, you walk by him in the livingroom and

stop
sit next to him
or kneel in front of him and look into his eyes
and smile, kiss, hug, put your arm around him
and inform him

"Okay, I knocked out what I needed on the editing; now I feel calmer and clearer. Next, I want to wash the dog, then do X&Y. Oh, and DD's BF will be here only until 8, so I want to have dinner ready by 7pm. Will you help me get there?" More completely unnatural communication, verbal and physical. I'll have to find some way to do it that fits us.

I think part of your dj's come in the guise "but I'm helping him--he wants me to" and those are the same that cause great pain to you when he does them for the same reason (seemingly)...focus on getting him what he wants

and it may not even be what he wants now

and you won't know 'cuz you assumed.Good point.


He can ask you specifically what he wants from you in terms of support "reminding" "encouraging" "discussing" "asking" "interest"...he determines, not you. Not yours to own.I know I have a history of 'helping' him, but nowadays, I feel like a sinking ship. We are in SUCH dire straits financially, and he holds the key to 95% of our salvation financially, yet he barely makes a move to fix it. Last year, I had panic attacks for the first time, once I realized just how bad it is. And yet he still goes blithely along, pretending we're fine or ignoring the issue.

I guess I need to build up my courage to tell him how close I am to losing it over our financials, instead of just asking him if he's done anything, or needs help with it. Maybe if he hears it that way, he will be motivated to change.

Give yourself encouragement, the reminders, the boosts...do the drive-bys every day...not skipping...same for affectionate drive-bys...informing...sharing...not asking to get or giving to change...

you matter...what you want matters to DH...what you need/have to varies...sort fear from love...speak more...and more...make daily goals...make it your boundaryThank you; this is doable.

So that you wouldn't have gone upstairs during the packing-the-printer up...because when he asked for your opinion...you would have said, "I trust you completely on which one you are going to give him. I'm delighted you're letting go, giving it away to him. I kinda hate that it's him because I feel like he hasn't earned your kindness, your generosity...and I feel like I have. My priority is finishing this dinner. It's important to me as I want to make BF feel welcome, thank him for helping with the grad stuff." That would have worked; more words than I usually say in a whole day to him, but I'll try to get to that.

And when DD says he's calling for you, say pretty much the same thing "DD, I trust you to help your father do what needs to be done while I'm in the kitchen."Honestly, that never even occurred to me; I've spent so many years being his gopher that it doesn't even register that someone else can do it. I'll try to remember that; then again, D18 will be gone in 3 months...

I did want to report that I have made a couple efforts to improve our communication to that of a functioning couple. Yesterday I said that I was wondering if he wanted me to look up trips to DC or New York for a weekend as a graduation gift for D18. He said something like 'hmmm' (can't remember exactly). So I said, 'would you like me to look it up or not? If you don't that's ok, but I know we need to get her a graduation gift, and that's the only thing she's ever asked for aside from me taking her shopping for underclothes.' He said 'what's wrong with her underclothes?' I answered and then said 'You didn't tell me what you thought about the weekend trip.' He said 'tickets will cost $1000 each.' I said 'right now, they're a lot less than that, maybe $300.' He stopped talking, so I said 'well, I'll just drop it then. You do what you feel like doing for her.'

I know now I should have started with 'I would like to plan what to give D18 for graduation, do you have any ideas?' but I'm a little rusty. At least he spoke to me about it. But we're no closer to a resolution. She graduates May 30.

And today, I was getting ready to call her college to schedule her advisory meeting, but I stopped and called H first. I said 'I need to schedule D18's meeting with the advisor at college, but I wanted to check with you first to see what days early in June are best and which are worst for you before I do.'

That went over better, he was glad I called and asked, but said he was on his way to a meeting. So I just said 'Ok, just give me a call when you are back to your calendar, ok?'

So I'm trying to change the way I do things and include him. I think I'll have to bring up the present again somehow, and include that I need to know what he would like to do (about anything) by, say, Saturday. That will give us a week.

This may sound strange to you guys, but the things I have left up to him literally will go untouched for years. I can't tell you how much money we have lost over the years because he has not gotten around to doing things, and won't let me take care of it: $300 items he has bought, and never returned, just because he never gets around to it; vacation vouchers he didn't do anything with; items he's bought (worth hundreds of dollars) that he never got around to going to pick up. Stuff like that.

Anyway, at least I'm trying to bring these things into the open so we can handle them like normal families.

This was a HUGE paradigm shift for me, when I started doing this.

I HIGHLY recommend.

Thanks LA, I may have first heard this from you, I don't remember now. In fact, I think it is so important that I try to use that language when I'm posting advice, too. I *try* (not sure if I achieve 100%) to not lay statements like "you should" and "you must" and "you need to" unless I feel it is warranted (like for abuse, I may say "You need to call someone!").

So, cat, you *want to* keep sharing with H things like "I *want to* have dinner ready by 7 because DD's BF plans to leave at 8".

See? I'm not making you feel guilty for not having the strength to do so yesterday. I'm simply reminding you that, according to the goals and desires you've expressed to us, that is what you WANT to do to achieve the life you want.

You keep telling us that when you speak up, that H responds admirably, especially considering that you're changing a 30-year-old dance. It may be difficult for him to recognize the new dance steps and he may by habit fall back into old patterns, but it sure sounds like his desire IS to make things right with you.

These past AOs you say happened when you spoke up before - how long ago did they happen? If you have never been inclined to speak up, then how did they happen? Are you sure that you didn't just give a meek suggestion of an alternative, and he expressed a strong opinion strongly because you weren't telling him it was unacceptable to treat you thusly? I don't know, I wasn't there, I'm just asking. Because you say you've never spoken up, and that when you finally speak up, that he makes a significant effort to comply. So I'm wondering how much the AOs you mention, were seen through your filter?

I'm guessing that if it were me or Stella who was married to him, we would have met his strongly expressed opinion with our own strongly expressed opinion... for me, BMB (Before Marriage Builders) that would have been an AO on both our parts, but at least he would know exactly where I stood. AMB (After Marriage Builders) I would hope I would apply Respectful Negotiating and employ Boundaries as needed if he responded with an AO.

I understand not wanting to make a stand in front of BF when/if it affects DD's last summer at home. I wonder if your H feels the same way. I wonder what would have happened if you'd gone upstairs (or wherever the printer was) and said quietly to him, "I really don't want to get into this in front of DD's BF, on her last summer at home. But I'm in the middle of preparing a dinner for the family and for company, which includes BF who is leaving at 8. So I want to go downstairs and finish dinner before he has to leave. I don't want to do this right now. Please don't follow me yelling at me in front of DD's BF."

Yay!


What does that last bit mean? It sounds like you are hinting that you are going to buy what you want to buy, and he is on his own, responsible for getting his own gift for her. Is that what you meant? If so, it helps the other person if you say it.

If there's a time frame in which inexpensive tickets are available, it would also be helpful to say that.


I think the original opening was ok. Why do you HAVE to open up with asking his opinion if what you really WANT to do is express your opinion? It's ok if you WANT to hear his opinion before you tell him yours, but ... to say that you SHOULD open like that, sounds manipulative. Sounds like a tactic one might use in speaking to someone when you have an agenda. Not how to approach a loved one with whom you want to share your thoughts with. IMHO.


So do it yourself. (And if this were you talking to someone else, you'd say, "I bet you're going to come back with all the excuses for not doing so!" *gentle poke*)


So, just this morning, going through DSs's bookbags and a pile on the kitchen counter where DH dumps all their stuff, I find all sorts of unsigned permission slips, unreturned library books, undone homework. I start complaining to DH that he isn't following my system, where I bought a couple of bins and labeled them for the kids to put all their stuff in as soon as they get home. He keeps saying that he IS following my system. I keep complaining. He says, he IS following my system, of not going through their bookbags and then blaming someone else when things are left undone.

Touche.

Personal responsibility: I may wish that he would do the things I think need doing, but it's my own fault if they are not done, if I don't do them either.

When you say you *couldn't* do those things because your H would have an AO... you are giving away your power. You *couldn't*? Or you were just not willing to risk the unpleasantness that would follow?


Yay!

it sure sounds like his desire IS to make things right
with you.
I agree.

These past AOs you say happened when you spoke up before - how long ago did they happen? Nowadays, they are every 2 or 3 weeks. The last one...a couple weeks ago. I don't even remember what it was about.

If you have never been inclined to speak up, then how did they happen? I think they mostly happen because when I go to him for something that needs to be done, I do so kind of like a sheepish person, scared person, and I think it irritates him, that I seem so scared of him. Then again, if I DO say what I want, and it's not what he wants, he AOs. Example, he wants me to go to bed at the same time as him. But sometimes don't want to wait til he's ready (I'd like to go at 10, he'd rather wait til 12), so if I say 'I'm ready for bed' or 'I'm going to bed' or 'let's go to bed' he'd get ticked off and call it IB. But if I try to sit next to him and hug him or something and then say 'I'm going to bed' he gets irritated because he feels (according to him) like I'm kissing up to him.

I need to figure out a middle ground.

Are you sure that you didn't just give a meek suggestion of an alternative, and he expressed a strong opinion strongly because you weren't telling him it was unacceptable to treat you thusly? I don't know, I wasn't there, I'm just asking. I don't understand this.

So I'm wondering how much the AOs you mention, were seen through your filter?A lot, I'm sure, because I'm afraid of his anger and belittling.

I'm guessing that if it were me or Stella who was married to him, we would have met his strongly expressed opinion with our own strongly expressed opinion The only times I've given a strongly expressed opinion is when I'm too mad to make sense.

I understand not wanting to make a stand in front of BF when/if it affects DD's last summer at home. I wonder if your H feels the same way. I wonder what would have happened if you'd gone upstairs (or wherever the printer was) and said quietly to him, "I really don't want to get into this in front of DD's BF, on her last summer at home. But I'm in the middle of preparing a dinner for the family and for company, which includes BF who is leaving at 8. So I want to go downstairs and finish dinner before he has to leave. I don't want to do this right now. Please don't follow me yelling at me in front of DD's BF." I'll try to keep that ready for next time. I'm getting better at it, so I have hope.

What does that last bit mean? It sounds like you are hinting that you are going to buy what you want to buy, and he is on his own, responsible for getting his own gift for her. Is that what you meant? If so, it helps the other person if you say it.
By that time I was too frustrated to do anything else. So I was giving up. I didn't want to get upset and start crying in the car, and I had already made that rude quip, so I quit talking.

Quote

I know now I should have started with 'I would like to plan what to give D18 for graduation, do you have any ideas?' but I'm a little rusty.

I think the original opening was ok. Why do you HAVE to open up with asking his opinion if what you really WANT to do is express your opinion? It's ok if you WANT to hear his opinion before you tell him yours, but ... to say that you SHOULD open like that, sounds manipulative. Sounds like a tactic one might use in speaking to someone when you have an agenda. Not how to approach a loved one with whom you want to share your thoughts with. IMHO.
I don't get it. Did you mean that you think I didn't want to hear his opinion? What I said to him was that the only thing she had mentioned wanting was to see those two cities (and Italy, but that's way out of our budget), so I couldn't think of anything else to get her. I then asked him if he had any other ideas. Maybe I didn't make that clear.


So do it yourself. (And if this were you talking to someone else, you'd say, "I bet you're going to come back with all the excuses for not doing so!" *gentle poke*)
Well, scheduling her appointment is not a want, it IS a need. It has to be done, and soon; they wanted us to do it 2 months ago, but D18 couldn't miss any days of school. But you guys are telling me to include him, to communicate, and to POJA, so instead of just calling and scheduling it, like I have for the last 18 years, I stopped and called him first, so that he would feel more involved in our decisions and not just being led around and me being bossy. Isn't that the right thing to do?

Touche. cute

When you say you *couldn't* do those things because your H would have an AO... you are giving away your power. You *couldn't*? Or you were just not willing to risk the unpleasantness that would follow? Well, that's a given. Which is why I'm trying out this new conversation thing, lol.

Okay...this is getting to where you live what you believe...

the company was waiting for what you promised...

and it's still a want to...

you want to fulfill your obligations...

you will not die if you don't...

Look at your criteria for want, need and have to...because wants are valid.

And I don't think you know that.

Once you ascertain how much you dismiss/discount your "wants" due to your previous sorting...take it further and say, "Do I want this more than I want my marriage?" See, that's an extreme...however, when resentment/entitlement has been the previous sorting mechanism (and we didn't know it), we are in habitual extreme...

so come to the middle using both of them...

and I believe in your severe financial status, your fear is going to mock that extreme...let it. Hold the fear. Don't react to it.

Now, I think it was healthy of you to do the editing job. If you did it without comparing yourself to your DH...what he was/wasn't doing...because you wanting is enough.

You hear that? What you want is enough. It's valid.

No justifications, comparisons, ranking or anything. Your wants are valid.

Doesn't have to be life-ending, extreme or major...that you want, knowing what you want, why you want it, where you are sorting it...and choosing to do and not do (works for don't wants, too)...

is enough.

When we feel as if we are lacking, not enough, have those if onlys and what ifs...use them to know what you're doing to yourself...and you will prosper, I promise...your life experience changes...know you are enough...and that doing/not doing doesn't earn you the right to exist...

you exist.

I understand the words I write as if you say them are super difficult...new ground...full of fear...unleash your life, Cat...you're the author...you are enough. You're a great read, because you exist...not the other way around.

Embrace alien...what is foreign may be as sick as what is familiar...if it's the only way you can work your way into the apex, the middle, the 90 degrees, go for it. I believe your DH will love you through it.

Re-read and find your assumptions...where you speak for him when he didn't speak...felt his feelings...chose his viewpoint. You had this done to you time and time again...understood. Acknowledged.

It's not what you want anymore. Has a false payoff...distorts reality and relationships. Isn't the comfort it used to be...and connecting through conflict doesn't have comfort...anymore than conflict avoidance has connection.



You can do this.

You have been doing some of this. There's more...because you did the first steps, you're ready for more...

Not push yourself...unleash...that choke-chain has hurt you as much as it's hurt him, The Marriage, and your DD. It's not real...not really yours. Take it off, hon.

Find someway to fit you or him with the verbal/physical communication...I hear more control in this...instead of choosing to do/not do. Period.

If you're worried about his heart, inform him of your goal...to change your verbal and non-verbal communication.

Like HOIT says, when you see it coming, duck.

Cat...your joy will be profound...your experience will change drastically...find your wants...seek to understand them first, then for them to be understood by others.

Seems like we're often taught the other way around.

How many words do you say in a day to DD?

Right here, right now...yes, DD will be absent in three months...and back...and there...and not there...right here, right now...if you gotta project yourself into the future, then ask yourself

how will I think of myself then, looking back on now, when I excused myself from doing different, when I knew better?

There's a whole lot of forgiveness for you to experience, Cat. Different ways and levels. That's still to come. It's going to be really hard...when you keep crossing your own boundaries and you knew.

Make a new boundary...to not act before you consider...what's my part? Where's my choice? Act, not react.

When we keep doing for others then we can be saying "Here I love you" and on the flipside "You must be done for. You're incompetent."

It's the flipsides in life you gotta watch for...and you may have to face in yourself "I do it better for you than you'd do yourself" is part of that false payoff. Unspoken, untrue admiration you give yourself...we do nothing without a payoff.

Find yours. Free yourself.

LA

PS Just had a thought about what the symbol of freeing yourself, taking off your choke-chain could be to you...when you feel you want to end the marriage, separate, get away...this may be your self begging you to free yourself...not from the marriage, from your constant self-betrayal. Was for me. For your consideration. With love.

That makes sense. I know it's not my issue if he doesn't follow through on the job thing. But, like OurHouse, my H's lack of doing is affecting MY life (and my kid's). I guess the next real talk I have has to be about my money fears and what I want from him, to feel more secure.

And if I don't get a decent response, lol, I'll just stop using this extra money I'm earning, and pay my OWN bills so I can move out sooner. As it is, I am paying the mortgage and the car insurance with it because he doesn't have enough (those are his bills; I have all the little, 'unimportant' [his words] ones).

What I was talking about is just what you mention here:


Don't hate me, but I can identify with being irritated when someone acts all sheepish and stuff, like they're scared of me. FYI, at least for me, it feels to me like they are acting like I'm some big bad ogre, when all I'm doing is expressing my opinion, and if they have a different opinion they should state it, not make out like I'm a meanie and poor them, they are a victim.

My mom often plays the victim. Sometimes it seems she doesn'[t know how to relate to people unless it's by playing a victim or by being a "boss". Sometimes it seems she feels most comfortable talking to one of her daughters by making the other daughter out to be the bad guy with her being the victim. Sometimes I'm this huge horrid monster, sometimes it's my sister who's the horrible one, and I'm the confidante.

So, yes, when someone comes to me with their tale between their legs, then I do feel irritated, insulted, defensive, etc. Someone that simply stands up and states their opinion, that's the approach that I will be most inclined to respond to with respect.

When I would date someone seriously, I always told them something that is sort of like my own version of POJA. That is, I hate it when someone tries to figure out what I want them to say (Like when asked' where do you want to go for dinner). The system I suggested was that each person express exactly what they want, not trying to "be nice" and guess (i.e., mind-read, DJ) what the other person wants. Each person states honestly how strongly they want that thing. (Like, I kinda want Mexican, but then again I'm not very hungry, so if you really want sushi that's where we'll go.)

OTOH my mom will say things like, let's stay home and eat, when the only reason she's saying that is because she ASSUMES we don't want to spend money, when we actually DO want to go OUT to dinner, and show her around town, and just want her to give one teensy weensy honest opinion!


So perhaps he was initially just being forceful in his communication style (which I'm not saying is good or bad, just that it's who you married)? It's good that you recognize this. It isn't that he is bad and has AOs, it's that you have a very low tolerance for ...? An assertive/aggressive communication style? Which again isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially around men, especially in some lines of work (I'm thinking football coach, for example).

Doesn't make him bad or wrong.


So do you think you want to try strongly expressing opinions before you get angry? Strongly felt emotions doesn't have to mean anger. I have strong opinions about the abuse and neglect of defenseless animals, and I could get into a strongly-expressed debate about it right now, without being personally angry.

You like relating to personality assessments and psychological models. Have you ever explored the enneagram? It sounds to me like you are a certain type and your H is another type which commonly doesn't get on well with your type. I won't tell you which types I think y'all are, because

(1) because a person can only really know themself and can't truly determine what someone else's type is. They may have an informed guess, but some types can appear as other types. and

(2) part of the benefit comes from the process of discovering your type. So someone telling you what your type is takes away from that growth opportunity.

Probably the most important thing I learned from the enneagram is that NO TYPE IS BETTER OR WORSE THAN ANOTHER TYPE. Each type can have its less mature/less developed form, and each type can have its more mature/more developed form.

Football coach styles are very important and necessary, and not just for football. Where would we be without strong personalities to fight important battles for justice, to serve and protect, etc?

[quote I'm getting better at it, so I have hope. [/quote]

Me too.

Great call on the inclusion...and of course, I'm gonna ask you to include more...by adding on this part "I'm going to bring this up again soon, because I feel like I'm running out of time...'cuz I am."

It's respectful to say what's on your mind, what you feel, what deadlines you have in your head...just as it is to lean against him and let him know you feel strangled by the marital financial situation right now.



How much does shame cost, Cat? Just because he never gets around to it...may be what he says...what he does...why did you continually expect him to do, over the years, what you saw him not do?

His shamed self acts out in ways different than yours. Shame doesn't have a price tag on it...seemingly free, in abundance to go around...yet it costs marriages and lives.

How much do you want to pay for his shame? How much do you want to say "Hey, wasn't me...was him who did that" meaning you had no part, not all or nothing...no part...and how much does that, has that cost in your life?

This is coming from me, who has been homeless (with a child) and did starve for three weeks (not from choice, resulting from my own terrible choices)...and I didn't die. Not having money won't kill you...not reaching out, connecting through whatever is, sharing your dream of what is to come...will.

For that is where the soul lives...in knowing and being known.

And yet he can realistically feel that to return something is to die from shame...a death. You know that fear...you know it well...in the eyes of others...you've lived it, repeatedly.

You share this with your H. He's not the bad guy who got you into this mess...he's the partner who's been going through life with you...your shaming spirals and his...and he's still there.

I know the frustration, the craziness you appear to feel over him not doing these simple things..>FOR YEARS. Gotta tell you on this side of it...when my DH does right away, before being asked, or even me thinking of whatever it is...I feel compassion now, understanding and we've grown closer.

Because he had so much to forgive me for what I did...

and me of him, forgiving him for what he did not do...

not opposites...same source...different reactions...together.

LA

RE: Football coach behavior/communication styles:

It depends. For instance, this weekend at the gym, I was talking to my son's football coach and his wife was finishing up on the treadmill. Then the coach started talking to someone else and she said to me 'this always happens--he will talk to anyone!'--but in a nice way. However, she followed through by saying "I'm going to the grocery store and I'm leaving now. Bye. Love you.' and she started walking toward the door. They came in one car. So he finished up and went.

Now if that were *my* H (and no, I'm NOT assuming because this has happened in the past), he would be AOing all over the place about how I embarrassed him at the gym. And we'd be off and running into our next argument series.

Years and years and years of his 'dictating' what type of behavior is 'acceptable'. And my defending myself is next to impossible. I either am interrupted constantly, minimized, shut down or pouted at.

That tactic works well for me too! (The closing the mouth tactic.)


No I just thought you were saying you "should have" opened with asking his opinion first, because that would've made it more likely that you would've achieved a certain result with your conversation. I guess that isn't necessarily a bad thing, I guess I'm trying to learn to do it, but I don't like doing it, it feels manipulative to me.

My nature is simply to open my mouth and whatever I'm thinking just comes out. Planning ahead to achieve a certain result may be called respectful negotiations, but looked at another way it may be considered manipulative if used a certain way.


I challenge this statement. What happens if her appointment is NOT scheduled? Does the universe end? No, not even this solar system will end, not due to that, at least. Plus, no one will die.

Is it more accurate to say that, since you want a certain thing to happen with her school (college acceptance?) then you want this appointment to be scheduled before that goal is missed?


Being H&O about what you want and what you plan, does not mean that you give all your power to him to veto your wants and plans.

Letting him know your opinion, and asking his opinion, and asking if he wants to do XYZ, does NOT mean that if he says no that YOU cannot do XYZ.


Yep, this new conversation dealie that just came out is pretty cool. I just gotta convince my H, he still thinks it's too newfangled, I think he's waiting until they get all the bugs worked out and the price comes down. LOL

Conversation = good.
Giving away power = bad.

Cat, you really inspired me today, showing up and suiting up! I called the housekeeper and told her we won’t need her for now, and that I’ll call her if I need someone again. It was a tough phone call to make, because I know she’s already reeling from the recession and a lot of clients dropping the house cleaning. But I thought about you and how you are taking charge of what’s best for your family, and I can do that, too.

It was concerned that it would be a tough thing to POJA, too, but it turned out easier than I thought. H was NOT enthusiastic when we started negotiating. His concern was that the chores would fall to his shoulders. But I asked him about trying it for a month, the whole family doing the chores, not just him just because he’s home, and then he was enthusiastic.

My favorite typo EVAH.

...back to reading.

Jayne, I understand completely about he doesn't like me to be meek. But then he goes and AOs if I dare disagree with him. A favorite phrase of his: "Don't question me!"

So I'm back to meek. But that's just me. Today, I had a small victory in that I bought a soft drink that had no carbonation. So I had to steel myself to go back to the store and ask for a replacement. I did, but it was scary. That's how meek I am. And I don't think he's bad. I think I've said many times that that's just his coping skill. But that doesn't make it any easier for ME to deal with him when my self-worth is in the toilet.

So I have to work on thinking of myself as just as worthy as anyone else. If you've never been there, you don't understand how hard it is to even approach believing it. But I'm trying.

So do you think you want to try strongly expressing opinions before you get angry? Strongly felt emotions doesn't have to mean anger.
I know that, Jayne. It's just hard to face that fear after having it all your life. My parents taught me to never speak up. My brother did. My boyfriends did. And H has been saying 'don't question me!' for 30 years.

But I appreciate having it pointed out. I do need to keep hearing it, so that at some point I'll believe I can be this person.

Great call on the inclusion...and of course, I'm gonna ask you to include more...by adding on this part "I'm going to bring this up again soon, because I feel like I'm running out of time...'cuz I am."
That makes sense. Thanks.

And yet he can realistically feel that to return something is to die from shame...a death. You know that fear...you know it well...in the eyes of others...you've lived it, repeatedly.
Well, that's not exactly what I meant, but you're right. He returns stuff all the time. He'll take an entire cart of stuff to Home Depot, even if he didn't buy it there, and wait for them to go through each part and decide if he can return it. He's just - WE are just - procrastinators extraordinaire, lol.

I'm trying to change my half of that. That's why I'm pushing so hard lately to get things done. Why I took up the task of getting taxes done when he would go 3 or 4 years without filing (I'm up to only 2008 now). Or paying down our debt.

It's taken me a long time to learn the things you talk about. But I am moving forward. It was scary for me to apologize yesterday and tell him how I felt. But I did it. He pouted afterward, but no AO; so that's progress.

Oh my goodness, cat, I can hear the wheels turning from here! Have you noticed that every time you post that, the next day, you come back and post how you tried it and it was okay! Thanks for being here today!

Jayne...you were the one who inspired me to look at wants, needs and have to's in this thread...I found your rewording very helpful.

About DD18's appointment...she can make it herself now. Not you, not hubby...she can. She's able. She's capable of making arrangements, too...

and ask her if she wants you more in debt for a symbolic and expensive grad day present...because she knows you're feeling panic from the financial situation...or if she has what she's wanted most right now...her intact family...together...admiring, appreciating and congratulating her?

She may have shared with you the places she wants to see someday...why would she ever want you to strap yourself in harder, deeper to shortcut it so she gets there?

Ask her...respect her opinion, hear her real wants, too...I'm not sure you can distinguish wishes from wants, needs or desires just yet...after years of them overlapping, one disguised as the other...stories we tell ourselves.

You have found your refuge in doing everyhing which accents your H doing nothing...we had this talk a year ago...it's not real and it has a damaging payoff...that feels really good (like a drug) you can overdose on in small amounts.

Overdoing leaves no room but for others to underdo...you do and don't do...and know why...from fear or love...hold yourself to that. Might eliminate a bunch of "have to's" right off the bat...beware...they'll miss you terribly and sneak back in, trying to look like needs and musts and shouldas...catch them, hold them, know they aren't bad or wrong...they were created in you from love, in defense of you, before you could defend yourself...and before you learned you have never had to...even once.

You are.

Ask what's my part? Who can do this same thing? Who will do this same thing (gotta ask)? See how you've combined inclusion, as consideration, for both yourself and DH? Add DD, too...and others...will this be vital to me in six minutes? Six days? Six months? Six years?

You have a lot of wishes for DD...think of DH wishing he'd not bought that, had returned this; wishing he didn't feel like a screw up, self-saboteur...and a let down to you constantly. We all have wishes...wishfulness...not to condemn...or to act from...to know...understand...connect.

I think you're up against realizing your DH IS capable...and what you have yet to experience is that he's been that way, and companionable, all along.

He hasn't been your problem. He has shared them with you...and seemingly, not, at times.

LA

No I just thought you were saying you "should have" opened with asking his opinion first, because that would've made it more likely that you would've achieved a certain result with your conversation. I guess that isn't necessarily a bad thing, I guess I'm trying to learn to do it, but I don't like doing it, it feels manipulative to me.Well, the way I was thinking was that if you're going to POJA with someone, the polite thing to do is ask their opinion first, right? So they don't feel manipulated. Honestly, I don't care what he/we gets D18; I just don't want to wait until Saturday morning and then he says '#%#$#@! We don't have a present!' and goes off all mad and stressed and ruins her day. Which is what usually happens when I don't 'take over'.

My nature is simply to open my mouth and whatever I'm thinking just comes out.Jayne, OT, just an observation, but do you think that because you are this way, your H may have reacted to you the same way I reacted to my H? As in, shut down and quit talking?

I'll take your challenge, and up it one, lol. I disagree. I think as the mother of an incoming freshman, it IS part of my duties to set up her process. Sure, that's controlling, as in she can take care of all this if she wanted to. And if I stepped back, she may show up at school August 21 to find out she's been dropped because she didn't take care it. She is accepted, she's paid for, but she has to visit their planning counselor to get her assigned into the courses. And she was supposed to have that done by now. So, sure, the world won't end, but I'm not going to go so far as to say this is one instance where I don't need to be making sure it gets done.

Being H&O about what you want and what you plan, does not mean that you give all your power to him to veto your wants and plans.

Letting him know your opinion, and asking his opinion, and asking if he wants to do XYZ, does NOT mean that if he says no that YOU cannot do XYZ. Jayne, we seriously must be on different wavelengths these days. I didn't say I was giving up anything to him. I didn't say I was not going to get her a gift (are we still talking about that?). I said that I tried to discuss it, he didn't participate, and I stopped talking. Intending to pick it up later when he IS willing to talk about it. I fully intend to get her a trip or...something...by the time she graduates. I just wanted it to be a joint process for a change, as I know this is just as important to him as it is to me.