4myboys-

What about filing for custody of your sons? I filed for custody of my boys last November (prior to WH filing for divorce) and currently the order states that when WH has visitation the OW and/or her kids cannot be present/have contact with WH. The basis of this being that this situation is detrimental & confusing to your boys, causing emotional turmoil, etc... Have your sons expressed that they don't want to be around OW and her kids? If so, this could be used as well.

FWIW, when talking to adults, use the word "adultery". The word "affair" is far to PC and fluffy to have the same impact. "Adultery" has weightier implications and one does not have to be religious to get the difference.

4myboys,

Since the law will not protect you -
And WH's family will not protect you -
And WH certainly will not protect you -

That leaves you.

That leaves you to protect yourself and your two young sons, who are now learning what it means to be men, from the selfishness and abuse of family that your WH is heaping upon you.

Most important rule: Your WH is never, ever, ever allowed to rub his adultery in your face or in your son's faces. Never, ever, ever.

How dark is your Plan B? Do you have communication with WH at all? The very best amount of communication is zero. Get the boys their own cell phones so they can talk to WH if they wish, but he should not be calling you.

You have a visitation schedule set up, right? So, follow it. If one of you has to change it for some reason, call your intermediary who will then relay the message.

If any other communication is required, then WH will have to go through his lawyer. WH should not ever be calling you for ANYTHING. Seriously - even if one of the kids was in the hospital, the hospital will contact you, or a friend will contact you, or somebody.

No contact with WH, because any contact just allows him to normalize his affair and rub it in your face and force you to swallow it.

NO!

He wanted out, well, he's out. He does not still get to have a supportive wife to take care of his children and conveniently arrange visitation and other details for him so this is all easy and comfortable for him and his girlfriend.

How do your boys really feel about being at Dad's house with Dad's girlfriend sitting in your place? If they would like to just see Dad and stop having Dad's girlfriend rubbed in their faces, then you go straight back to your attorney and insist that the visitation be changed.

Don't take no for an answer. Sometimes you have to fight and push for what you want. This is your kids' lives we are talking about here. Let them know that you understand they want to see their father, but that it sickens you that they are exposed to their father's girlfriend because it's just plain wrong - that it breaks your heart that she is sitting in your place and your family is no longer together.

Fight back. Make WH do all his own dirty work. Do not cave in under the guise of being "nice". "Nice" to a WS means, "Give me everything I want no matter how much the family suffers for it."

NO!
Mulan

P.S. If/when you see WH's family, tell them you're glad they want him to be "happy" and you understand that they support him since destroying his own family makes him "happy".

Shooting heroin and drinking of fifth of Jack Daniels a day and stealing money makes a lot of people happy, too - at least, for a while. Would they also support him if he was doing something like that?

Yes! Don't give up so quickly, no matter where you live. You need a pitbull attorney who will look out for you. Your children's futures are at stake here, to say nothing of their day-to-day dignity and security.
Mulan

Help!!!

I talked to each of my kids today, separately.

They both said the same thing. They don't want the OW around when they spend time with their father but he insists that the OW participate. BOTH kids always object to her participation but their concerns are never heard. My older son says that his father tells him that the OW would be upset if she wasn't included. He even went so far as to say that she was so upset once, that she cried.

I told both kids that the OW's feeling are completely irrelevant and do not matter and that their feeling are more important than hers. I told them to stand up to their father if he ever does this again.

I am disgusted with my H's behaviour. How dare he use guilt and manipulation to push the OW into my kids lives? And what kind of woman would do this to two innocent children? They're completely pathetic!

My question is...what more should I do? I feel this is something I need to address directly with him (via my IM). I don't feel it should be the responsibility of my kids to constantly have to fight him on this. I'm worried he will bully them into doing whatever he wants.

Anyway you can give him the FINGER?! Thats what he deserves for being such an a$$!! DUDE

The only solution I know of is to file for formal separation and try to get it stipulated. Or for divorce. In some cases, children your kids' ages can have say in how they live thereafter.

Get to a lawyer!

My other suggestion is to keep harping on his family about how detrimental it's becoming.

Do your inlaws know that your children do not want to be around w OW..Make sure they know that their grandchildren are being hurt by them excepting WH's childish behavior...I dont care if it makes a difference or not, THEY are contributing to your kids being hurt and they need to know that....Do they care about WH's happiness or their grandchildrens happiness?...Say this to them, they are a bunch of wimps...

My dad used to take me on his dates, so that I could babysit the women's kids while he and the woman went back to the bedroom. Great way to learn you have no voice.

And I was so desperate for ANY attention from my dad that I didn't dare complain.

That's why I'm so adamant about BSs taking such things on and showing their kids that someone will defend them. I can't even imagine what a difference it would have made if my mom had just once said something to my dad.

4myboys-

I truly feel your angst, anger, disgust at the OW being present while your boys are with your WH.

{{{{{4myboys}}}}}

I posted earlier today.... How about filing for formal custody of your boys. I did this and this is seperate from a divorce filing; you don't need to file for divorce/separation. Custody/visitation will be handled in Family Court (at least here in the US it is... I thought I read you live in Canada). Last November when I filed for custody I was given temporary full custody without ever stepping foot in the courtroom. WH could not remove the boys from our home and could not have OW& her kids present when he was with boys. DSs were assigned a Law Guardian who is there for their best interest (seperate from me and WH), and who really listens to what they want and represents their wants/needs in court.

You should be able to get it where OW cannot be present. Also, the manipulation your WH is using on your DSs will not be looked at very favorably by a judge or law guardian. It is very upsetting and distressing to your DSs mental health to be around OW from what you and they have said. Use this to your benefit. And if such an order is put in place fight tooth and nail to keep it that way- especially no overnights. WH is still a married man! If you're lucky there will be postponements (as in my case) and WH will make an a$$ of himself in court and refuse recommendations of Law Guardian (as in my case).... that is where I am almost a year later and the current order continues keeping OW & her kids away during visitation. Be prepared for the violations that WH & OW will most likely make and try to get away with... even more ammunition for you.

Kateydid

Are you surprised? You shouldn't be. There's always more to the story when you look a little deeper.

Again - WH will not protect your boys. That leaves YOU.

I would tell those boys that under no circumstances will they ever again have their father's skanky girlfriend forced on them. If their father insists that SGF be there when the boys visit, then tell the boys they do not have to go.

(Frankly, I'd go to jail and them make sure the whole world knew about it rather than force my kids to spend time in the company of their father's wh*re - but that's just me.)

If their father chooses their girlfriend over them, well, guess what - HE'S ALREADY DONE THAT and it should surprise no one when he does it again (and he will).


Oh, my god - you mean the poor skank actually cried and Daddy just couldn't take it? How many times has he made YOU cry, 4MB? And do your sons know this?

If this doesn't make it crystal clear to your boys just how sick and backward their father's thinking is, I don't know what will.

No way should your children be around this. Listen to Kateydid - GET A LAWYER and PROTECT YOUR CHILDREN FROM THIS INSANITY.

Nobody else is going to do it. That leaves you.
Mulan

The law cannot make your WH do anything but the law can impact the relationship WH has with his kids but you have to put your [censored] kicking boots on.

See specifically the the role of Office of the Children's Lawyer (OCL) for advocate information:
http://www.ontariodivorces.com/child-custody.html

There is another link to take you directly to the OCL website. Some other info about the child's wish and assessments:

http://www.ottawadivorce.com/age.htm
http://www.ottawadivorce.com/custodyassessments.htm

Don't take what the first attorney, family, friends, etc. tell you. Most people take the easy road and give up because they don't want to make waves. Makes some waves...that doesn't mean rant and rave like a crazy woman. You need to be calm and get your facts straight so you can make a solid game plan. Like Mulan, I'd probably be carted off to jail if WS brought OP around my kids...so be it.

Also, please keep a journal of these conversation with your boys. Simply state the facts, DD#1 told me X, DD#2 said Y. Are your boys seeing an IC or would they be comfortable talking to a family member so that that person can be called on as hearing info 1st hand from your boys vs hearsay? Document any incidents of the boys coming home crying, acting out, etc.

4myboys, you are in Ontario aren't you? I seem to recall this from your initial thread. If so (and probably if not), your 14 year old is old enough to make his own choices regarding seeing his father or not. While your 10 year old isn't, a judge will take into consideration his opinion, especially if it is similar to his older brother. In other words, your kids can say no and it's unlikely that any legal action your WH takes will be successful. Perhaps this is a good time to teach them about saying no. It's a good lesson applicable to many situations, not just this one.

4myboys, are you using an IM? Others may chime in but if you send WH an email (directly or through IM - not sure if it matters in this case), you will have documentation that you made a reasonable request that OW not be present when the boys are in his care. Address what the boys have told you...they are upset at having OW around when they are with him. Keep it simple and keep the focus on the boys well being, not you and him. Ask him to please respect the boys feelings.

Do not tip your hand about anything regarding child advocates, etc. If you are lucky you may get a venom laced response that will show his lack of concern for the boys. You can post a rough draft here for feedback to ensure that you aren't saying too much and the email is effective without getting emotional.

Thanks everyone for your responses.

I am in deep, dark Plan B. All communication is through my IM. No problems there.

I hate that my kids are caught in the middle, of which I am partly responsible. Here's my dilemma.

The kids know that any mention of the OW upsets me. If something slips out, I try to keep my emotions in check but they know how I feel. If their father askes them to include the OW in their activites, they know that including her would cause me pain. But, they also know that exluding her would cause their father pain. So, they have to choose to either hurt me, or hurt their father.

Now I know what everyone is going to say...who cares what he feels...did he care when he was sneaking out with the OW and carrying on behind my back? No, so he doesn't deserve any consideration.

But these are kids were talking about. Regardless of what their father did, they just want to love their father and spend time with him. They would not want to hurt his feeling any more than they would want to hurt mine.

It's a tough game, but the kids need to know that the POS OW is the enemy. Forever. No matter what happens.
Any respect given to her would be validating the poor choices H has made.
It's not about them taking sides between you and H. It's about them not letting H be a cake eater. He should suffer CONSEQUENCES of his behavior. One of those is that his kids will be openly hostile in any event involving skanky.

Your boys are old enough to understand that when you do something wrong, there are Consequences.

It is wrong for their father to force his OW on his children. Therefore, the Consequence is that he does not get to see his children.

If he wants to see his children, he can see them WITHOUT Skanky.

If he doesn't want to do that, then he has made it plain to his boys that Skanky means more to him than they do.

Do NOT allow WH to make the boys "choose" between parents. He is trying is very best to do that, and is almost certainly telling them how "mean" Mommy is being by trying to exclude poor poor Skanky.

You've got to put an immediate stop to that. And you do that by turning this thing right on its head:

You are NOT trying to make the boys choose between their parents. It is fine with you for them to see their father at scheduled visits.

It is WH who will have to choose between his children and Skanky. Drop that bomb right in his lap and make HIM deal with it.

If he continues to try to force her into his children's lives, you get every kind of legal help you can to put a stop to it. Don't take no for an answer.

And tell EVERYONE what he is doing - another kind of exposure.

Stand up for your sons, whatever you have to do. You do not want them growing up with the idea that men can just replace their wives anytime they want and everybody has to be nice about it.
Mulan

Please print out what Mulan has said, and memorize it.

In fact, try to find a way to explain it all to your sons. They are certainly old enough to understand the logic of this situation.

They will gain some self-respect if they choose this path, to let their father know SHE doesn't belong in their lives. Without helping them do that - explain their own pain to him - they will turn out to be Pleasers. And that is a sorry road to travel. Lifelong therapy, all that.

Teach them to be strong and sure of their own beliefs.

It sickens me when waywards try to "normalize" their affair partners. They count on people being uncomfortable enough that they remain silent. Silence means consent, right?
That's why it's REALLY important to get everyone who is a friend of the marriage to stand up to this behavior.
When good friends of mine separated because of an A, my girlfriend was constantly trying to get us to go out with the POSOM. I flatly refused and anytime I saw him at any school functions I told him he had a hale of a lot of nerve coming here, and didn't he have other kids of his own that he should be tending to, not wrecking another marriage.
Well, the affair eventually ended. (Sadly, the marriage did not survive either, and the girlfriend has a steady stream of new daddies to bring around, but at least I was not party to letting this affair continue without scruitiny.)
Tell all the kids' friends' parents what is going on--tell them if they are a friend to the marriage, they will tell H not to bring skanky to any functions. If they are "too afraid to get involved," at least you know what kind of people they are. Cowards. Amoralistic. Get support.