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1st, Bubbles, I don't think it's fair to Hold to belittle his wife so strongly. By that I mean that Hold allows this to happen and needs to take some control over what happens to him in his life. Not blame, but control. He is not damaged goods and still very capable of some amazing things.

Hold, from my experience, a woman will tell you that she doesn't want any physical attention from you, but still wants to know that you find her attractive. Maybe that sounds insensitive, don't know. I'd get the pills for you, because as you admitted, it bother's how you feel about yourself, which is extremely important. Get your T levels checked if that's what you needed.

Why are you trying to send Ms.Hold a message. If you want her to go get another guy, then tell her that. Be honest with her, be honest with yourself. I understand that you have a no hope for a happy marriage but what to keep the shell in tact. I still don't think that's a good reason to lie to yourself.


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Mrs. Hold knows I find her attractive. I pinch her butt and tell her she is beautiful on a daily basis. I refer to her as the incredible shrinking wife. I tell her how great she looks and how impressed I am with her progress. She does not need sexual attention from me to feel attractive. I think if I never had another erection and never attempted to have sex with her she would be very pleased.

I would agree with you that I should get the pills if I intended to have more sex. Not being able to perform sexually with my wife would be damaging to my self-esteem. But as long as we don't have sex, it doesn't matter. I am not going to pay money for pills so I can perform better during masturbation. To me that feels like some kind of cruel joke I am playing on myself. I would get the pills if I needed to them to achieve orgasm. But as long as I can orgasm, my hand is not going to complain about the state of my erections during masturbation.

I do intend to demand a testosterone check. I'll tell my doctor that I have problems sleeping (I do) as well as loss of muscle tone and erectile dysfunction. That should be enough to get the test authorized. Who knows, maybe they will find something is wrong. If the doctor tells me to take Viagra, I guess I will accept some sample pills.

But if my right hand starts becoming more demanding, I am going to blame you people!


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Hi Hold,

You're in a tough sitch. ED can by a symptom of something else, so better have the doc check you up.

What are you doing for yourself lately?


-- Still JM --

Met `82, Steady May`86, Married Jul`95. D12, S9, D3. MB`ing since Apr`02 to fall back "in love."

05.20.06: "If you live each day as if it was your last, someday you'll most certainly be right."
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Quote:
But if my right hand starts becoming more demanding, I am going to blame you people!



rotflmao

This is becoming the male version of the feminine hygiene products aisle. LOL


me - 47 tired
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Mrs. Hold broke through another "decade" barrier today. Tens digit went from 6 to 5. Good for her.

She is driving D12 and teammates to Binghamton NY for regional swimming competition. If they place in top 4, they make nationals.

I will be taking S14 to state basketball championships this weekend. Top 3 teams make nationals.

So wish all the kids good luck!


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Hold, I agree about the testosterone thing. In fact, many men are diagnosed with depression and put on ADs (which then worsens the sexual issues) when the real issue is the testosterone level. There is a chart somewhere on the web that truly shows what T levels should be according to age and it's not the farcical one that says anything over 200 is fine. That's fine for an 80 year old, maybe.

My H had this issue and I think it happened after he had his gall bladder out and developed some unforseen complications and got very ill. Somehow, his hormones were completely out of whack after that. And he was on ADs at the time. Finally, a doc said to him--let's test your T levels. And though they were well over 200, they were still well shy of where they should be. They kept him on the ADs but also put him on Testosterone. Wow, what a difference. He felt better physically as well as mentally, his sleep problems went away and his sexual issues resolved. And he was eventually able to discontinue. His body just needed a kick-start.

Even though he refuses to consider ADs again now, I wish he'd go back and get his T levels checked again. I think this latest round of stress from his layoff last year has screwed up his hormones again.

And good luck to the kids! My middle son was in US Swimming for about 4 years and made jr.nationals. I wish he hadn't given it up but he prefers the high contact/team sports.

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D12 made nationals as an 11-12 soloist. Her 13-15 team also made nationals - extremely impressive since (i) one girl dropped out last week so they had 8 days to rechoreograph the entire routine to deal with her absence and (ii) the drop out left them with only 6 girls and there are increasing penalties for each person less than a "full" team of 8. As far as we know, no other team in the region as small as 6 made nationals.

Unfortunately, S14 did not fare as well. They won twice on Saturday (one in double overtime) but then lost twice on Sunday (once by a single point) to be eliminated. No nationals for them. Their biggest guy broke his wrist 2 weeks ago, so he was not at 100%. And their best player tore his ACL a few months ago so they have been less dominant than previous years all season.

As it happens, my uncle from Chicago was in town for business meeting on Friday so he stayed around and joined me to watch the games Saturday. That was a very nice day.

I don't think S14 was as upset as D12 would have been, so in the bigger picture the weekend results were fine. Now we just need to figure out how S14 will be spending his summer since he will not be having daily basketball practice.


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Congrats on both your kids even being in a position to be doing these things! It really hit my D18 hard this year, when all the people her age are showing their accomplishments (and getting scholarships for them), and she has nothing to show for it. She pushes herself studywise, but wouldn't do sports, dropped out of choir, too clumsy for dance (though she did it for 3 years), just never wanted to belong to anything like that. Now it's hurting her.

That said...
As for S14, why not just let him vegetate, hang out with friends, read books, go hiking, play street ball, whatever he feels like? I truly think that we put too much onus on kids to be always performing and achieving, and that's why kids are so stressed out these days. They never have quiet time. They never spend two hours straight with no music, tv, games, or programmed activity.

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Congrats hold! That's really cool about D12. It sounds like S14 also did well, even if his team didn't win it all. The important thing is to have fun and to learn good skills - physical skills, and social skills like good sportsmanship.

I totally understand feeling torn when one kid wins more than another. Our S7b won his boy scout pack's Pinewood Derby, so he went to the regionals a couple weekends ago. Of course if S7b won, that means S7a didn't. Which really sucked because S7a was totally thrilled and excited for S7b when he won his first heat. It would've been nice if such enthusiasm had been rewarded by S7a also doing well. But we try to encourage them to be supportive of each other's accomplishments, and we try to make it a positive experience for them both.

IMO you've got a great couple of kids there. They are doing wonderfully!


me - 47 tired
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Hi Hold,

I read that the book NMMNG got your attention. It's an easy to read book, yet very hard to do the break free exercises.

I think this might sum up what the book tell you. Your marriage will change to how you lead it, or it's been dead and you moving on is over due.

As you say, whatever Mrs Hold accomplishes from this weight loss program, you're on your way to running away.

Even though you know you're miserable, you feel you aren't in the position to make that decision. You're not ready, or there's no perfect time to break off, and you fear the unknown outcomes.

Perhaps you're afraid to be alone. You don't want to gamble the outcome of the custodial arrangements of the kids. I understand those fears.

You want to do the changes, but for some reason, there isn't enough factor to push you in deciding. I wonder, how far Mrs Hold needs to push over your boundaries before you make a decision to end the M?

If she gets another man, would that be enough? I think she might believe that, so she probably won't do that, and still get away with pretty much anything at your cost.


-- Still JM --

Met `82, Steady May`86, Married Jul`95. D12, S9, D3. MB`ing since Apr`02 to fall back "in love."

05.20.06: "If you live each day as if it was your last, someday you'll most certainly be right."
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Originally Posted By: jayne241
It sounds like S14 also did well, even if his team didn't win it all. The important thing is to have fun and to learn good skills - physical skills, and social skills like good sportsmanship.


Yes, I agree it was a good experience for S14. Several of the dads in attendance complimented him on his play. Including some who are coaches of other age groups associated with the same organization who sponsors his team.

And it was great for him to play with people from a different background. He was the only suburban kid on an inner city team. So the culture was very different than on his local school and town travel teams. Just dealing with the other kids at practice was an education for him. Socially. Culturally. And he had to step up his game to handle the fast pace they use. he wasn't used to being on the receiving end of no look passes. Also, we played many games at inner city gyms. We were in a league based at the rec center of a low income housing project. Very eye opening for him to see the way those kids were basically the same as him but at the same time the way some of their lives differed.


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Update:

Getting close to D12's party, and the money issues are causing nightly friction. I stay calm and "just say no" no matter how unreasonable I view the requests. After all, it is a DJ to think I know better than Mrs. Hold what is reasonable and unreasonable.

As for the rest of the relationship, there basically isn't one.

Mrs. Hold feels I have emotionally withdrawn. Which is true. She feels pain over that. Which is understandable. She wants me to comfort her in her pain. Which is not going to happen. Well, not anytime soon or without huge behavioral changes on her part.

As for sex, pretty much status quo. Except that I have communicated to her my current views. No sex unless and until we are able to talk about it outside the bedroom.

If I am convinced that she is an unrecovered rape victim, then I am obliged to refrain from sex until she seeks treatment. That she argues otherwise is not conclusive. If she can talk to me about what she likes and doesn't like sexually, then I can at least rationalize that she is sufficiently recovered to have sexual relations. If she cannot bring herself to discuss sex at all, then I have to stick with my gut feeling that she is not.

This is not about me and her. This is about me and me. Having the self-respect not to have sex with an unrecovered victim.

People have often asked me over the years why I still desired to have sex with her. Easy. I was wrong. Weak. Damaged. And sought to put a band-aid on my wounds. Hopefully I will now do what is needed to heal myself. Rather than trying to use my wife's body as first aid.


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Hold...for what it's worth, I think personal integrity, especially in difficult living situations, is imperative. Intent is something that I would review frequently in your situation, just to make sure this is about integrity and not revenge of any sort, kwim? No offense intended.

Anyway, also wanted to mention that there are likely plenty of women out there who are not super comfortable discussing sex and aren't victims. Just saying...? Think we discussed this before.

Go with what feels right. Hang in there.


Sooly

"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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Soolee:

I admit it is possible that Mrs. Hold "just" be uncomfortable talking about sex, as many other women are. And that it might not be PTSD / trauma at work. But at this point, I can't think of anything else that operates as a "test" to see whether she is recovered - as she says she is. All aspects of her behavior other than verbal protestations say she is not.

My motivation is not revenge. It is self-preservation. I need something that helps me feel comfortable with my decision not to have sex with her. This seems to work. Whenever I get an urge, I think about what happened to her, and what it says about me that I desire to have sex with her, and I am able to control the urge and not act on it.

I agree that the "test" is in part designed to prevent sex occurring. Not to punish Mrs. Hold. Frankly, I don't think she will mind except as so far as it reduces her ability to control me through rationing access. Rather because having sex with her sporadically drives me nuts so I prefer not having it at all.

The talking is mostly about getting me comfortable that sporadic sex is OK. Like any other RC that we do only occassionally rather than regularly. If we can discuss her likes and dislikes and set some ground rules for what is OK and not OK for me to suggest during a session, then maybe I can get comfortable with going back to having sporadic sex. Otherwise, I am not enthusiastic. wink

See, unlike everything else I do, this is very MB-ish. No sex without a POJA first. And I don't see how we can POJA without talking about it! stickout


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Hey Hold? It might just work - who knows. Keeping my fingers crossed for you.


Sooly

"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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Hold I only came back on here to help YOU. I am busy with my own life and my marriage is really great now because of two things. I asked my husband to help with the kitchen and he not only took over that area of maintenance of the home but does the vacuming and cleaning of the house (between monthly HK visits) that we need to do. He watches the same amount of TV but watches some shows I like so we can watch those together.

Also, we were falling back into bad sex patterns like "forgetting" to have it for a month or more. I brought it up to him and suggested maybe we jump on the once weekly sex to improve it. I told him I loved him so much that when we have regular frequent sex, MY BODY feels like it loves him even more.

And I feel content and in love if we have sex about once a week. So he has made an effort to hold to that and it has been great. When you aim for once a week, yet if you get too busy for sex on a certain night, you can postpone it for a day or two and still make up for it.

If you do not plan the once weekly sex, then there is "nothing to make up for" and no REGULAR pattern to develop that you can both "divert from occasionally".

Enough about me. HOLD, I feel certain that you can have conversations about sex with your wife if you approach them the right way.

If you ask her to have a conversation about sex, then you are putting too much of the responsibility of that on her. Rather, you need to just START TALKING about one aspect of sex and catch her off guard.

Do not ask her to TALK ABOUT SEX. She will say NO. Instead, just start talking about it. Smile, touch her hand, and ask a few minor sexual things...starting with one little thing a day, to get her used to talking about it. She used to talk to you about her other sex partners when you went for drinks, etc that proves to me that she can talk openly about sex and that accidently and sadly now, you are maybe the one turning her off of talking about it with you.

To get the conversation moving, you could ask her:

Hi there, when you had sex,, did you ever do_________?

Hey, honey.... did you ever do _________?

(see what she says, do not go into a long conversation just bring up the question)

I like it when you do ______________in bed with me. Do you like that too?

Sometimes I like it when you do ___________, what do you think about that?

Do you prefer ___________ or _____________?

I know you used to really like sex from past conversations......(let her respond, do not say anymore)

Remember when we used to talk about sex while having drinks at that bar? That was cool wasnt it. (or, I think that was cool we used to talk about it)

I like talking about sex, maybe sometime you can I can speak about it. (look her in the eye, smile and walk calmly and happily out of the room)

(HOLD, REMEMBER YOU WANT TO toss out one question, keep it light and walk away. you do not want to try and trap her into some long conversation. you want to use these simple statements and happy questions as BAIT for keeping her coming back for more sex conversations. YOU ACTUALLY WANT TO SET UP A DRAMA AND MAKE HER CRAVE MORE AND MORE TALK ABOUT SEX. YOU HAVE TO BE REALLY SMART TO DRAW HER IN TO A CONVERSATION LIKE THIS. YOU HAVE TO MAKE HER WANT TO SPEAK ABOUT IT. OFFER REWARDS FOR HER DOING THIS. REWARDS COULD BE A LOOK OR A SMILE, A TOUCH OR A HUG.


Anyhow I do not have time to think up 100 sex conversation starters for you, you can think them up and write them out for yourself. But you get the general idea. If you make conversations with sex both pleasant and fulfilling you will gradually draw her toward you in that area and increase her comfort in talking about sex. More and more she will be comfortable talking about sex. This should translate over into improvements in the bedroom.

But not all at once, it will take months to break both your bad neglectful frozen conversation techniques regarding talking about sex.

At this time, the sex talk is fraught with bad feelings so it is no wonder she does not want to talk about it. There are failed expectations between you two revolving around sex issues in the marriage. Probably even conversing with sex brings up a lot of guilt, shame, anger, hurt, hostility and dissapoinment. If talking about sex makes you feel bad for any reason, you will want to avoid talking about it.

There are many categories and levels of "feeling bad about sex" which would freeze out any conversations about it. Yet all these could be overcome by good (in fact, perfect) conversation techniques.

Here are some things that could be affecting or blocking or getting in the way of good conversations about sex.

1. Her (bad or good) feelings about sex
2. Your feelings about sex and rejection
3. Her rejection of you sexually
4. Unexpressed hostility
5. Low self esteem
6. Bad coping devices like ignoring things
7. Her past sexual experiances
8. Your past sexual experiances
9. How neither one feels like there is any posibility of sucess
10. How the other parts of your lives fit (her overspending, etc)
11. The trust factors
12. How close your hearts are to one another
13. How openly you converse about other things
14. Bad general dynamics of your marriage
15. The lack of positives in your marriage
16. The weakness or strength of your love for one another
17. The lack of respect for one another
18. The personal fortitude, or lack of,that you have to persist with this
19. The desire, or lack of....to learn to express your needs to one another
20. The desire or lack of.... to have better conversations
21. The lack of time you spend learning how to properly converse
22. The X factor in your marriage
23. Underlying feelings/thoughts that are unexpressed
24. Actually how good or bad the sex really is....


There is so much more, I should write a book. I hope you can try this approach HOLD, you need to have a PLAN and start to approach this from a larger point of view.

The other way I have thought of is if you would FIRST learn to converse WELL ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE besides sex. You could then lay the groundwork or BRIDGE between you two and increase your abilities to simply converse. Once you have laid enough of that good groundwork which includes great conversation in other areas of your marriage, then you could introduce the sex talk. That is yet another of the 100 ways to approach this.

If you think BY SIMPLY asking her to talk about sex,,,,that this will ever work, you are wrong.

You have to be so much more skilled and sophistocated and know what is "actually going on" in your marriage, with your and her feelings, and with your lives, that prevent good conversations NOW ....before you will even be able to approach this delicate sophistocated and complex issue..... properly.

Sexual conversations are both "the touchiest" and yet the "most wonderful" of any conversations in marriage. You have to work up slowly and carefully to these. You have to learn good approaches to all your marital conversing but especially in this area.

YOU CAN DO THIS, but it is way more complex than you think.

Last edited by Bubbles4U; 10/28/09 11:24 AM.
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Thanks for the advice. Sounds like it has a chance of working. I will try it and let you know. If I am staying, I might as well try to make the best of it. No problem with rejection, because I have no expectation of any response. I will not DJ and predict negative reaction on her part. Who kows, maybe she will surprise me!


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Hold,

I hope you allow yourself to be surprised.

And to really not predict, expect, assume she will reject...to be right.

Just my own experience talking. smile

Hey, you gotta tell me the date of the big day for your DD...it's been in my mind for over a year and a half, I think, on your behalf, and I think it's significant when it's over. Something new on it's way...more clarity...if only we can reach that darn date.

If you don't want to say the date, then at least say a date it will have happened by...'k? Something...anything...just beggin' here...

LA

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LA:

The date will have passed by Thanksgiving. The day of the religious ceremony is also my parents' 50th wedding anniversary and S14's birthday. So it is a big celebration.

Mrs. Hold got off the phone today with the entertainment and the caterer. We are "importing" the entertainment from Long Island. So it should be a novel treat for our guests from the "boonies" where we live in CT. And the caterer is more reasonably priced than the one we used for S14's. So Mrs. Hold is getting the "wow factor" she wants from the entertainment and I am getting the "cost factor" I want from the caterer.

We had a "dress emergency" last night. D12 HATES the custom made dress they picked up yesterday. Then she pulls out a black sequin dress from her closet. I think it is perfect. Mrs. Hold thinks it is too short. No budget left for a new dress. Dad tried to save it by buying a silver motorcycle jacket on Ebay that matches D12's shoes and allows her to "punk" her dress. Or maybe we will buy a 2" strip of fabric from JoAnne's and have the seamstress sew it onto the bottom of the black dress. We shall see how this is resolved.

D12 has learned all her prayers. I am almost done learning my reading from the Torah. I sent the brochure explaining the week's Torah reading to the rabbi for approval. So we have all the religious duties taken care of.

Now we just to "speciate" all the stuffed animals that D12 is donating to Ronald McDonald House as her mitzvah project.


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Speciate? That's a new one for me.

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