I agree with Dealan-de. That's how my H and I see it. I use the term OC on here, for clarification, but that isn't how we think about our daughter. She is OUR daughter, pure and simple. I know that my H doesn't think about her as "some other man's child," because she isn't. She is his child, in absolutely ever except for the DNA. He was there for my ultrasounds, he cut the cord when she was born, he stayed up with her nights when she was a newborn. He loves her and I love her and we are a family.

And, my H did have a choice in this. He could have walked away. He could have decided that this wasn't what he wanted. I will be forever grateful that he didn't, but he certainly could have.

Adoption is extremely unlikely - WW has made that clear. Briefly spoke to an attorney 4 weeks back or so but didn't get much info on paternity other than I would be the legal father and if WW left, I would be liable for child support.

What a mess...

Finally, something we can all agree on!

CA paternity law will probably work more in your favor if your WW decides to stay and work on the M.

Hang in there and don't give up hope. Your WW is probably going to say a lot of things that make the situation sound hopeless. I know I did. A lot of it is justification to help ease the guilt. I told my H that I wanted a D, so in my eyes, I wasn't really having an A anymore, because I had essentially "ended" my M by announcing my intentions. That way, I was free to carry on with a relationship with the OM, because my M was "over." It is all very messed up and makes absolutely no sense. Of course, it made sense to me at the time. The guilt that a wayward experiences can be crippling, and they will do almost anything to ease those guilty feelings - anything except for give up the AP, of course. The addiction is far too strong to even consider that.

Don't listen too much to anything that comes out of your WW's mouth right now. It's likely to be very foggy. When she snaps out of this, the things she's saying now will likely be just as horrifying to her as they are to you.

I hope things work out for you. If you stick to Plan A for the time being, at least you'll know that you did everything you could to save your family, no matter how things turn out.

Silly WW keeps breaking NC. Pathetic, can't go more than a day without contact. I may have to get more direct - i.e. blocking numbers on the phone, etc. Sigh...

writer1 - you said that I should try to meet WW ENs. How can I do that when everything she does suggests absolute contempt for me? SAA says something along the lines of try to meet ENs but while C is still ongoing its likely to be difficult and I should not expend an exhorbitant amount of time trying. That doesn't mean I turn into a jerk or anything, just not try to go overboard on meeting ENs that can't possibly be met right now.

It is difficult to meet EN's while the A is still ongoing. I suspect it is often quite impossible, since most of your efforts to do so will likely be met with anger and hostility. It seems as though, the nicer my H was to me, the more angry I became. I think this was likely because, when he was kind and understanding, my feelings of guilt skyrocketed.

Right now, probably the best you can do is to try to avoid LB's by not having angry outbursts or making too many demands. Her contempt is a protective measure. It protects your WW from her own guilt. It has very little to do with anything you say or do. That doesn't make it any easier to deal with, but hopefully it will help if you keep that in mind. Yes, she is going to reject most of your attempts to meet her EN's.

It is going to be very difficult for your WW to see things clearly until NC is established. I realize there isn't much you can do about that, at the moment. Even after I "ended" my A and decided to work on my M, I erroneously convinced myself that I had a moral obligation to stay in contact with the OM because of the baby. I seriously hindered the R of my M, though I didn't know it at the time. I didn't see it as continuing the A, since I was no longer romantically involved with the OM but merely communicating with him about the baby. It wasn't until we established complete NC that the fog totally disappeared and I was finally able to see things clearly. That was only 2 mos. ago. My M has been so much better since then, but it took a very long time for my H and I to get there.

If you can do it to prevent contact, then do it. Your WW is an addict, so what you are doing is rooting around her known stashes to keep her from using again. It's the first thing they do when someone gets checked into rehab.

My WW resorted to buying a $5 calling card and calling OM from a payphone. When I found the first calling card in her purse, she bought another one, called OM from a payphone again, but ditched the calling card once she was done. I still caught her because I was monitoring her bank account and found a suspicious $5.00 charge from the gas station that I knew was for a calling card. I confronted her, and she gave up trying to sneak around me. If they can think they can get around NC, they will try. You are dealing with an addict. You need to treat her as such.

You CAN try to monopolize her time as best you can.

Invite people over so she has to entertain with you. Schedule counseling sessions (even though most won't be that productive while she's still in contact). Family dinners at home or out. Things she really has to be present at and can't escape into another room and hop on the phone/computer.

Contemporaneously, on the down-low behind the scenes you MAY want to start reading up and preparing for the worst case scenario....a child custody fight.

One BIG factor in your favor is that only YOU remain a member of your chosen church. Most courts weigh continuation of the families chosen religious upbringing heavily. At the very least, you'll have an argument enabling you to see and take your kids to church EVERY SUNDAY (or do you Smither's go Saturday?). Thus...it remains important that you continue taking the kids to church and MAYBE even signing them up for so weeknight extracircular activities at the church as YOU are the only one allowed there (and that would continue after any divorce).

Not only is being prepared smart (protecting your rights and getting you the best deal should you divorce) it ALSO adds another consequence upon your WW and the more you accumulate the more likely she (or OM) is to end the affair.

Now that I mentioned it...don't forget to battle this thing some on OM's side of the fence. Keep the pressure on HIM as probably 8 out of 10 or 9 out of 10 times these affairs end it's the MAN that gets fed up with the consequences and pulls the plug. IF OM is divorcing...he's about to become a single man. There's a world of uncomplicated trouble free women available to him. He MAY just dump her to pursue other interests. The more trouble and difficult you make this FOR HIM...the sooner he jumps ship. Be creative. Remember everything you say about OM to your WW will be nearly immediately related to OM. The feed off this drama...however, you can take advantage of this to send along MISINFORMATION. I used this knowledge to freak out OM. I knew the OM in our situation didn't make much money, lived with his parents and paid child support...so I casually told my wife how much money she spent the last year and EXAGGERATED it by leaps and bounds. Sure enough...she told him and I KNOW his little head was spinning wondering how he could ever afford to REALLY be with my wife. Our OM was also told by my wife about my golden gloves boxing career...with large embellishments again. Boy did OM's ears perk up....as OM's are all to aware they DESERVE a good beating and if you can instill even a little fear it's just one more thing pushing them to throw in the towel. My mother in law confronted OM and made him think my wife COULD BE mentally ill and she also implied that my family is connected (greek mafia) and he'd likely get hurt.

You may have a more difficult time since you and OM were friends at one time. But you never know....again, be creative.

Mr. Wondering

Is there a forum on snooping tools? Specifically, I'm looking for a Windows keylogger. My WW has one e-mail address that I haven't cracked yet...

MrWondering - I like your thinking. Greek mafia...lol!!! I posted earlier that I take some pleasure out of this game. Not much, I mean, it's extremely serious and I recognize what I'm fighting for, but it's a battle of wits and I don't get to do that too often...

About church - its pretty involved. 3 hours on Sundays. At least one hour during the week for multiple kids. Other events, etc.

BTW, what legal means does she have of getting me out of the house? She's asked me to leave only once but it completely lacked any teeth, I just ignored her. I just want to be prepared. Right now, knowledge is power.

I don't think she can force you out of the house unless she tells some blatant lies. Such as, she could call the police and falsely accuse you of abuse, or some other such underhanded tactic. Without resorting to things like that, I don't see how she could make you leave. It's your house too.

I presume you have a job and your WW stays home with the kids. MrWondering had some great ideas. I was a stay-at-home-mom when I had my A. My H earned all of the money. Things really started to get real when OM filed for a D and had to pay well over 1/3 of his income in child support. I really started to doubt his ability to support me and the baby. He wanted to get married, or so he said, but he made it very clear that I would have to work full-time to make that happen. He could barely support himself in a rented room on what little income he had left. The A started to look much less glamorous once I realized that I would have to find a full-time job, while pregnant, and largely support myself, the baby, OM, and my other kids. Blowing the fantasy out of the water is imperative.

By the way, under no circumstances should you voluntarily move out of your home. That could be seen as abandonment by a court. I told my H he would have to move out of the home many times, since our M was "over" and all, and I was going to marry OM. He just ignored me, or agreed that, yeah, sometime, he would have to move out, but he never did anything about it. I didn't either.

It's a very good sign that your WW isn't taking any steps to remove you from the home or moving forward with D papers. It proves that she isn't anywhere near as serious about ending this M as she claims to be.

Good. Now is not the time to take a step back on seeing that their religious educations are followed through with. Your wife likely doesn't want to go anywhere near the temple and will discourage taking them so YOU likely need to step up in her place (and it will bode well for you in any custody dispute)


I tried doing a little research by googling "motion for exclusive use of marital residence" but I now think in California it's a "show cause motion". I didn't find much other than attorney's willing to take on such fights and petition for the same. Generally, it appears absent a restraining order or other FACTORS demonstrating it's in the children's best interest in high conflict divorce situations it's unlikely she (or you) can get the other out. I tried to find out what those "other factors" were in California but found nothing. So I'm left to speculate that it's likely things like substance abuse problems, history of violence (just not documented spousal or child abuse), criminal record, documented mental conditions...stuff like that. In conclusion, if she wants you out...she'll have get you to agree to it OR file a restraining order based upon a complete or mini-fabrication (for example, one BH here insisted his wife get off the home phone with OM and take such conversations outside of the marital home...he kind of stood over her making such demand and the WW "claimed" he was blocking her exit from the room (false imprisonment), yelling at her (disturbing the peace and disturbing the children) and intimidating her (assualt)) My suggestion is that you be sure to have your snooping in order. She'll have to figure out that a restraining order is the only way and perhaps PLOT with OM on how to accomplish provoking an incident. Such PLOT would be a wonderful defense and would likely aid any custody battle that may ensue.

Mr. Wondering

ID - you may want to look up a thread started by me in the Pregnancy board, as I have been told by my mother that I am a child of an affair.

I'll let you click on my user name, and do the searching if you'd like.

What you need to know the most from this OC POV:

The man who cheated with my mother IS NOT MY FATHER. Not in my eyes. Not in God's eyes. He is an IMPOSTER in my eyes.

Not because my mother raised me that way. But because My Heavenly Father taught me WHO I AM.

I didn't become active in the church until I was 19; I learned about LOVE from God - not my parents. But I Honor and Respect the man who raised me as my father - I acknowledge he did the best he could with what he had and how he himself was raised to think of himself. And He has earned the right to be my father. Not OM.

The one thing both my parents did right was lay a strong foundation of wrong and right - isn't that odd - as abusive and dysfunctional as that childhood was (Dad was an alcoholic and a mean son-of-a-gun when he had been drinking, even a little bit - and a lot of times when he hadn't touched the stuff) and Mom was mentally ill - undiagnosed, but I know enough to know how to deal with her in a loving and kind way without taking her personally.

You have an opportunity to set things right for a child that has yet to be born. To be the kind of father OM isn't qualified to be. You are worthy to bless her/him and raise that child to know God's goodness and love. Your wife isn't there yet, and OM isn't there as long as he's in your wife's life.

So - make this a matter of fasting and prayer. I've seen some great men raise other men's children with love and care. And I've seen some great women raise other women's children with love and care, neither associating the children resulting from cheating as the problem, but eventually the gift of Trust God gave them to do the right thing for this little one.

Glad to hear you're hanging in there. The best way to make sure your wife doesn't go loco and call the police for a restraining order to get you out of the house is to rally support from your kids. Especially the two oldest.
They should know that mommy is going through some very difficult times right now because she has a boyfriend and that married mommies aren't supposed to have boyfriends.
The soon-to-be sibling could be addressed at some point--I'm not sure if it's best they know you're not the baby's daddy. Maybe not. But at the very least, they should know that mommy is in an affair and might be trying to do things to introduce a new daddy onto the scene.
That way if the police are ever called and the children are interviewed, they can understand the situation better.

Another suggestion is to carry around a pocket recorder. If things start getting heated, pull it out and let her know that you're recording. That tends to calm things down a bit.

OR you could just keep it hidden and if she makes a false claim based on an argument, you will have it on record for the cops to hear. It probably wouldn't be admissible, but it would give them a clue about what's really going on.

Apparently Cali is one of those bassackward states that says ALL parties must consent to being taped.

Fudge.

Oh, this is just one of the many ways in which CA is bassackward.

Believe me, I know. I can't BELIEVE some of the stuff that state gets away with "in the name of a child"...

It's like CPS is the head of the Fruit and Nut mafia.

They don't call it the land of fruits and nuts for nothing!

It is very hard to force someone out of their home in CA except for abuse, abandonment type stuff. I would keep the recorder around simply to protect yourself if she falsly claims abuse.

Freakin' lousy morning.

WW and I took kids to school and ran into OM. Yes, he's that close by. She had claimed he was in OC at his parents and I got a bit defensive claiming she knew he was going to be here. Turns out he's here to clear out his house. OMW is going to Utah, he's going to OC and house they are in now will be rented by mid-Nov. They are out Nov 1st (that's a good thing cuz now he HAS to live in OC (orange county)).

To try and make up I took WW and youngest DS to breakfast. Things were going good, she agreed to let me go to the first ultrasound next week (since OM is, or was, on NC). And then I get a text from OM asking me to call him. Well, I told WW I just got the text and should I call him now? She says yes, so I call him there in the restaurant.

OM starts telling me all the ways WW has been breaking NC the past few days (I already knew this but neither WW or OM knew) and I let WW know what OM was telling me. She then silently gets up and walks out of the restaurant (we're real close to our house). I try to find her but she runs away from me. Eventually she meets up with OM and they talk for a few minutes, then she ends up at home all angry at me.

I ask her, are you guys going to stick with this NC or not? She says "probably not" because "things have changed and we don't know what we're going to do". Apparently the other night, the MC told OM that he had to choose between his kids and WW. OM told this to WW yesterday and she told him to choose the kids. But then they saw each other today and they're right back into the fog and nobody knows what they want...AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! It's like dealing with two stupid teenagers. I want to take a brick to the OMs head!!!

So, freakin' A, now everything's all jacked up again. Bah, shouldn't have made the phone call in front of WW. Although it would have gotten back to her eventually and probably blown up in some other way.

AND, the best part is, I tell WW that she has little to no hope of getting sealed to this guy. I tell her, if you move out, what are you going to do, live with him? That's a sin, a huge one. How can you sin and ever hope of repenting so you can get back in the church, go to the temple and be sealed? She says she plans to live on her own - with the kids BTW. Uh, what???? She has no job, didn't graduate high school, hasn't worked a job in 12 years. Please. She's in a fantasy world.

I don't want to just pop this bubble, I want to destroy it.

Ugh, too many LBs this morning. My WW is insane.