OOPS!!!!!!!!!!!

LA, yes, I need to let go and let D18 do. Don't want to, lol. Basically, the bottom line is this family needs to learn to communicate. But, it gets a little better every day.

Except for D18, of course, she has NO trouble communicating, lol! Some days I'm sitting there listening to her go on and on and on, and I'm fighting to keep that 'look' off of my face, the one that says 'my eyes are glazed over and you just can't see it' cos I don't ever want to be that mom who wasn't available, you know?

Good idea to have her make the appointment, but I still want to make sure it's when H and I can go. Yes, I'm selfish. I want to be a part of this part of her life.

She has already told me we don't need to get her anything. She almost never asks for anything. So getting her a gift is really about me as much as her, same goes for H. But I still have the gift my mom gave me; it was that important. I want her to have something like that to remember. I know, more excuses, but it is really really important to me to meet this milestone.

She's been asking to go to Italy for 4 years now; the only thing she has ever asked for. H has been promising her every year, but each year he got more and more in debt. So I guess it may just have to be an IOU for that trip.

My editing now:

"It's taken me a long time to learn the things you talk about. But I am moving forward. It was scary for me to apologize yesterday and tell him how I felt. But I did it. So that's progress."

Less is more. And more honest.

LA

I love the "don't want to" which is identification, too. Wants and don't wants...good job.



D18 does and doesn't.

DH does and doesn't.

There's really no letting...it's an illusion.

And you do and don't do. There is no try. You're doing and not doing (the shut out)...which is terrific...and you're not doing/not doing based on no longer feeling fear...and you're doing anyway.

Which is why "this family needs" is to me, prevarication...you want to learn to communicate? I believe you. You want to listen, understand, acknowledge? I totally believe you. You want to speak and let go the response, as long as it holds your water test...respect, love, clarity and honesty?

I'm behind you.

So you guys file taxes as married filing separately all these years?

LA

PS - Italy sounds to me like a super great college graduation present--something you can plan for in detail...plan quarterly check ups on examining, monthly saving for, even in the midst of crisis...and I think paying for her tuition is a great high school graduation gift...may not be to you, if your parents paid for yours.

It's always surprising to me how different people see things through different filters. I was thinking of how books on how to influence people and how to negotiate successfully (as in, get your way when negotiating with an adversary) might suggest asking their opinion so you know where they stand, so they feel more relaxed, etc. Or, for a simpler example... maybe something like when someone leads off by asking "So, what are you doing this Saturday?" The smartest answer might be "Well that depends; are you about to invite me to a party, or ask me to help you move?" LOL

So to me, the more honest thing is to simply state my position, without any premeditation or calculation of his response. Without trying to "butter him up" before I strike with my request.

I have come to understand that what I view as honest, some people view as impolite, not nice. Could be my position on the Asperger's spectrum talking. Or maybe could be my tomboy accustomed-to-dealing-with-guys-all-the-time filter.


Great! You don't want to wait; so don't wait. You've asked for his input, now you can consider that and decide what you want to do with it.


Yes, I have considered that quite a bit. I think I've admitted that is probably a large part of the worst problems we had when I first came here - not his general tendency to not talk, but his complete ignoring, his P/A responses, his AOs. Which is why I resisted advice to speak up more. LOL My problem wasn't that I wasn't speaking up enough.

To some extent though, he's always been not a talker. I'm pretty sure that the main reason he was attracted to me is that he felt more comfortable with me than with any other female. And yet, it was usually 3 of us who hung out together, with me and the other guy doing most of the talking except when we were mudding, or via email.

And on our first date, we went to a movie, and I was totally thinking we'd go for a coffee or something afterward, somehow spend a little more time with each other, talking... if nothing else, discussing the movie. He thought he would immediately take me straight home. That wasn't due to him shutting down; that was just the way he was, even with someone he was attracted to, even when we were at the very beginning, in the gaga infatuation stage.

But yes, I do sometimes come off like a bull in a china shop with my "honesty". I'm learning to be a little bit kinder and gentler, in trying to not hurt you or ears. Thanks for the lessons.


You disagree with whether it's a "need to" or a "want to"? It sounds a little like you are disagreeing with whether it's your responsibility or your DD's. That was LA's statement, which I think is a good one, but it isn't what I just said, so I'm clarifying what it is you are disagreeing with.


Like I said, I wasn't talking about whether or not it's your responsibility. I'm trying to point out that, it isn't that you NEED to do it; you won't die and she won't die if it goes undone. It's that you don't want the consequences of you NOT doing it. Therefore, you WANT to do it.

By expressing it as, you WANT to do it, then at least IMHO your whole attitude shifts. You no longer feel it is a burden. You aren't doing it because you HAVE to do it. You are doing it because you WANT to do it. If you resent doing it, then don't do it, if you are ok with those consequences. If you are NOT ok with those consequences, then you are CHOOSING to do it, of your own free will.

Freedom. Power. Responsibility.


What I said was in response to your question "Isn't that the right thing to do", here:


But I'm starting to think I hear frustration in your "voice" so maybe I should leave you to the kinder and gentler LA.

My H HATES that. He gets very tense, even angry, if I just up and say what I believe or want. Have you ever noticed any reactions from your H when you do that? Maybe compared to when you first met?

That's what I do with EVERY gift we give her. I give her one, he gives her one. We never communicate on it, or I try to and he'll say 'I don't want to deal with it right now' - his second favorite phrase. So I quit talking and go and get something on my own. And he either remembers to get something, or he takes her shopping. I was hoping to get her one good gift this time.


huh?

Disagreement...yes, in a perfect world, D18 could schedule her own appointment; she has unfortunately gained our inertia; she left her phone charger at our time share 2 or 3 weeks ago, and she called once, had a hassle, and hasn't called back - so she charges her phone in her car for 10 minutes at a time, instead of just doing the work to call them back. She didn't even open her box of graduation invitations until yesterday, and that's only because I made her (we've had them for 2 months). But as I said, her going to this college is probably more important to me than it is to her, so I literally need this to happen. And if I leave it up to her and she gets shut out at the door for not doing the footwork, I will be the one freaking out. Yes, I've created her to be this way, but she is what she is. Technically of course you can say this is a want, not a need. Of course I'm choosing to do it because I want it to happen (but I never said I had resentment over it; I'm actually pretty excited about getting to participate). But given my background and screwing myself out of college and having to go to night school for 15 years...yeah, it's pretty much a need for me. Panic attack kind of need.

The confusion was because I never said I wasn't going to do it. I was trying to change the way we deal with situations, but no, I'm not going to step back and see if he does something and if he doesn't, just say oh well. I think you were reading me saying that if he doesn't answer or participate I'm giving up getting a gift or whatever. I was just giving up having that conversation in the car at that time. Does that make more sense?

Jayne, I'm not frustrated with your advice, I just think we don't understand what the other is saying sometimes.

Cat, your daughter is 18. She's an adult. You can suggest and reason but ultimately if she makes a decision (or fails to make a decision), it's her consequence. You're not going to be there next year to orchestrate her every action. If she doesn't have a few failures now, she might just choose to coast through assuming you will be her safety net.

This has been a tough lesson for me to learn with my son but I think it has done him a world of good.

OH, I know that, really I do. Maybe it's because I only got to have one child (H didn't want any more), that I've wrapped up my whole life in her. I know she needs to fall on her own. I just want it to be after she gets there, lol.

Cat...I hope you will tell DD what you've told us here...what you're doing, why you're doing it, what it means to you.

And then share that with H...that's part of inclusion, too.

Would be a big step, too...because in these posts that slowly revealed your intent, over the course of a few posts...we got to see what H may see...

You share your actions...plans. Not more.

He can guess, try to figure out or ask...in essence, solve you. When if he knew more, he would want to support you, not leave it undone...not dodge or distract from the have to's..shoulds...need to's.

Ask and it shall be answered..."Here's what I want for me..." even if it's about DD's life. That's radical honesty. It's allowed. Required to thrive. Your H can handle it. I believe in him.

LA

Good point, LA.

I was helping D18 with graduation announcements today and there's a card you can send out if you want to get together afterwards, like for dinner. So I called H to tell him that D18 suggested a certain restaurant, and he asked if I had made reservations, and I said 'no, I wanted to see what you wanted to do first.' He was pleased and said he thought it was a good idea, but to make sure we have a reservation first. So I'm trying to include him more. And he is responding.

I will work on including my thoughts. He is still cutting me off when I talk though, interrupting, and that makes me extremely gun shy to talk. It makes me feel ashamed, that whatever I say is so substandard to what he and D18 say that I shouldn't have bothered anyone with it.

Yes, I have told him this before.

Cat, looking back, I bet it is lucky you only had the one child, If you had two to care for with the husband you have,,,you might have been pushed over the edge. And think of the expense. You two would be broke.

No lie there, Bubbles.

Cat, I can relate to not wanting to talk when you will be cut off. But what you have to say IS important, regardless of who is listening or not listening. How about sharing your O&H about that, too? "What I'm about to say is important to me, and I am asking you to not interrupt me."

NED, this has come up at least a dozen times. In fact, it's the one topic I HAVE been able to say to him - we even discussed it the one period where we went to counseling together. He even has told D18 "We need to stop interrupting Mom. She never gets to talk" on 2 or 3 occasions. Yet he still does it. I truly feel like he simply just isn't interested; there's always something else he wants to think about, or he sees and wants to comment about, right at that very moment. That's always the 'excuse.' "I know, honey, but the car was passing, so I HAD to say it right then." Sunday night, it was something someone was doing on TV, so he had to bring it up while it was on the screen. That's the usual reason. Then he realizes I quit talking. Then he says 'Go on, you were saying?' Sometimes I say 'Do you remember what I was saying?' and he says no. So by then I'm utterly humiliated (in my own mind), and I can't bring myself to open my mouth again. Other times, he says 'what were you saying?' and I say nothing. He asks again, but by then all I want to do is cry, so I just zip my mouth; he frets for about 10-15 seconds, and then forgets about it and goes back on to what he was talking about or watching on tv.

Interjecting myself into the conversation here .....

I looked this topic up (interrupting) in the private forum for L4 awhile back.
Dr. Harley said that this was a habit and habits can be broken.
Some couples use an object to take turns talking. When one has the object in their possession, they are the one talking and the other one listens and is NOT allowed to talk until they have the object. Each has the object for the same amount of time.
So one has it for 5 minutes then hands it over, and so on.

V, I understand that, but this isn't the kind of conversation where you sit down and say you're talking to each other. It's just sitting in the car driving to church, or at a table in a restaurant eating dinner, or sitting on the couch watching tv.

The talking stick IS great for forced conversations where you're trying to accomplish something. Not terribly applicable to every time you happen to be in proximity to each other.

I'm picturing guys sitting around a camp fire, getting in touch with their primal male identity... with the Talking Conch. LOL

Cat, one thing Steve H said to me last week, was that even if H says he doesn't agree or he doesn't think it's important, for me to just say, "Well I think it's important" or "It's important to me". That may not work, but to keep doing it anyway. To keep sharing that H&O.

I know it goes against what you have ingrained... this is me trying to encourage you to keep trying.

But why not, if interruption is a problem? In the car, pick up your umbrella or a pack of gum or whatever object is handy and announce that it IS the talking stick for the duration of the conversation. Say your piece, and hand it over.

In a restaurant, it could be the salt shaker, watching TV it could be the remote.

Ooh, wait. Scratch that last one.

But seriously, why not?

So...we've been doing really well. Talking about problems, working together, helping each other, being honest, he's actually helping me around the house now, but today is bringing back an old, old trigger.

H feeds off of admiration from others. Huge thing for him. Biggest.

So church asked him to run for council. Second time he's run, lost last time. Embarrassing for him. This time, people were pumping him up, saying they'd vote for him.

Long story, out of 6 people running, he was one of only two who lost. So, he's been going on about it all day long. Studying every angle, who did what, what underhanded deal went on, etc., trying to make himself feel better. I've tried to help.

But, true to form, tonight the anger is starting to come out. He's putting in a water filter I asked about recently. Yay! But of course, it's not going smoothly, so the anger is starting to surface more and more. I'm trying to help with the installation as I make dinner, but my old triggers are back...will it turn on me, what will he find to yell at me about, all that.

I know it's not about me, so I'm better off than in the past. But now, since we have progressed a lot, I'm unsure what to do with the triggers, and with his anger.

Do I stay away from him and let it fester and boil over? Do I hover and try to make everything great for him, i.e., kiss up?

This is unfamiliar territory for me. I don't want things to go back to the way they were. What would a healthy marriage person do, when one person is hurting all day over being embarrassed at losing a council race, and lets it spill over in anger?

Cat

I am no where near in a healthy marriage. I am however sorry for the triggers it's hard to know what to do with them.

However what I would do is tell my h I am sorry that he loss, that you understand the disappointment and how that must hurt or be very frustrating after so many people encouraged him to try.

However maybe at this point God has something better planned for you that you would be unable to do if you took this position. That if there was anything you could do to help to let you know and that you think he does a great job on helping you and you know he could have done a great job there too.

to look forward to what other plans God may have for him.