It's my pleasure, but is that polite way of saying that I ramble on?!

Okay, that's true.

Well, hold on, I did not say "Christian marriages". I said

Dr Harley speaks of "traditional marriage", not "Christian marriage". He makes clear that he and his wife are Christians, and I believe that he refers to Biblical guidance for those who want it (my copy of SaA is upstairs somewhere, but I believe there is a section in there, and on this web site) but he does not offer his counsel to only Christian marriages.

I'm wary of assuming a role of Dr Harley's official interpreter (but if Dr Harley would like to offer me that role I'd be happy!)

That said, my reading of Dr Harley's descriptions (picked up here and there; I have not read the whole Defending book) are that he favours traditional roles because they have worked over many generations.

Dr Harley himself wrote on this forum only yesterday of his recognition that men and women have different emotional needs.

That does not sound like a particularly traditionalist view at first glance, but I believe that it is, because it goes against the current orthodoxy that "men" and "women" are social constructions. One brand of feminism has it that "male" and "female" are biological facts that can usually be established at birth. However, sex means nothing outside the reproductive area. Our sex does not determine our behaviour, talents or "emotional needs". Behaviour etc is something that is socially conditioned, and women have been oppressed by that conditioning. Hence they must not seek men to be the breadwinners, protectors, disciplinarians, furniture movers or mammoth-slayers. They do not need men to be those things - they just think they do because that is what they have been taught.

Dr Harley is very clever, in my view, at staying out of feminist arguments but I detect an opinion that feminism and changing roles have not done marriage many favours, and he is not sure that men or women are particularly happy with the changes, either.

I see his polite reticence about feminism here:

If I would dare put words into the great Dr's mouth even more, I would say that he would not tell women to get back to the kitchen, and he would not say that real men do not change nappies. He does not tell us how to live. But subtly, I think he makes us question how we have chosen to live (as individuals, and as a society) and asks us whether modern marriage has made us happy.

Husbands and wives live separate, independent lives and do not answer to each other for how they spend their time or their money, and then they wonder how their IB led to breakdown of their marriage. They claim their rights to nights out with the boys or girls, separate holidays, socialising with colleagues after work instead of coming home, and then wonder how a friendship turned into an affair.

No IB, total POJA, spending practically all non-working time together, no RC with other people...most, if not all Harley principles take us back to more traditional marriages than the ones many of us have now.

I was a bit of a loony feminist in my youth and though I gave most of it up when I moved with with my H, Dr Harley's views have made me think about all this again.

Makes one wonder when the roles in the traditional marriage changed so much in society that MB became in such high need?

Was it the economy, womens move to independance, ever changing social freedoms, war, disco music, dare I say it.... woodstock (j/K)?

Oh, it's all those things! No kidding about it! You nailed it.

Hang on a minute; disco music??

What did Kool and the Gang ever do to deserve that?

Don't give them undue credit. They were pure disco, including the crimes against fashion.

Who were you thinking of? Chic? Donna Summer? Surely not the Bee Gees?

(Psst. Do you think this bloke will ever want his thread back?)

Good post SC.

I too have a history of being a bit of a feminist. Many would say, a LOT of a feminist.

Maybe it's all the above thats made me so moody. What do you think Dude?

Oh - my post looks a little out of place now amongst all your Kool and the Gang talk. I liked the Commodores myself.

Makes one wonder when the roles in the traditional marriage changed so much in society that MB became in such high need?

Was it the economy, womens move to independance, ever changing social freedoms, war, disco music, dare I say it.... woodstock (j/K)?

I saw the Commodores supporting the Jacksons at the Rainbow, Finsbury Park, in 1978. Now THAT was disco.

Um....SC...SIHW just called you OLD!!!!

(snort)

Um....SC...SIHW just called you OLD!!!!

(snort)

Good post SC.

I too have a history of being a bit of a feminist. Many would say, a LOT of a feminist.

I have to say that I feel a little mis-led by the disingenuous information that told me "I could have it all" - Career, huband, children, perfect home, and social life.

It left me totally exhausted and unhappy because in trying to have it all; in trying to have the supposed perfect life, I felt like a failure at everything.

I'm having to re-think a lot of my beliefs, but let me say that doesn't mean I ever want to be chained to the kitchen sink.

Maybe it's all the above thats made me so moody. What do you think Dude?

No one could be as graceful or have such a thrilling sense of humor for her age like Sugar...she is a gem!

Irrelevant....

really so other cultures have differnt beliefs. and That makes them not married because they don't have a church or state that makes marriage law?

SIHW, you are making this worse and worse. How have you managed to get BOTH feet into your mouth at the same time?

Any more of this and I take me and my walking stick to somewhere we can be appreciated.

I ran 4.5 miles this morning. Can you say the same?

(Okay, it took me 4 hours, but that's not the point.)