So I've been in a 9 year relationship, we weren't legally married, but considered ourselves to be married (ok, before everyone lays into me about this I know it's not the same etc etc...). Well it turned out she was carrying on an affair for a week while I was on a trip. We had a fight when I got back (I think she set me up the blow up) and she left the next day. That's when I found out about the other guy.

Well for the last 2 months she's stayed in contact and waffled back and forth about coming back and working things out etc. I've tried Plan A type techniques and been completely exhausted and depressed about the whole thing. All our friends and even her family have been supportive of me.

However last night I got into it on the phone with the OM. Only the second time I've spoken with him. He says they got married a week after she left. So basically they got married after they knew each other for two weeks. She has been wearing a ring around, but told a friend that it was just symbolic of the relationship with the OM. She won't speak to me now.

If she really is married then she's been lying and hiding it from everyone, me, friends even her entire family. I just don't know what to make of it. Why would she tell me she was thinking about coming back this whole time? Should I just try and move on? It's all just so bizarre and feels like it's happening to someone else.

You can never believe what an OM say's.

You need to check the local town records where they live to see if a marriage license was taken out. Expose this marriage to WW parents.

Then all that is left to for you to do is a plan B with her at this point. Send the plan B letter.

Why have you not told all her family and your family what OM said? And what she did (this last phase, I mean)? Do everything you can to NOT give this relationship legitimacy.

If this marriage turns out to be real (and you could just ask her, BTW):

She was never married to you and is now married to someone else.

You need to stay out of her life and her marriage.

The first thing I did was expose it to her family. Unfortunately her parents have passed, but her sister was incredibily angry. I guess i'll check the records on Monday but i'm sort of feeling like giving up at this point. It's just so overwhelming.

A different perspective for you:

BEFORE I was married (now 28 years) I was in a 14 year relationship in which I considered myself "committed" if not legally married.

That person (now deceased) could/would not marry me. He told me he'd been carrying a diamond ring (his grandmother's) waiting for the right moment to ask me to marry him, and he said;

"I just don't know why I cannot ask you." (after 14 years)

A light went off in my head and I finally terminated the relationship.

AFTER I was married, this same X boyfriend stalked me. NOW ready to ask me to marry him. It scared me, but more than that, it really pissed me off. He used to call my parents every now and then, as a means to check up on me. This was creepy and not romantic in my eyes.

PLEASE, if you find out she IS currently married, leave her alone. She's made a decision and you are not, nor have you ever been, her HUSBAND.

This does not mean you are not in pain.
But endure the pain, learn from this and recover yourself on a personal level.

I do admit a bias in your situation. The bias is that you never married, which shows me that marriage is not important to you, including your X-girlfriends marriage (if this is true).

So, get the facts.
Is she married.
If she is - go away. Quit poking your nose into her marriage.
If she is not married - you can try to make yourself as ATTRACTIVE to her as possible.

The question you must ask yourself:

Is marriage important to me? Do I respect and honor marriage as an institution?

nexus, I agree with Pepperband, please leave this woman alone. She was a free agent and is free to move on and pursue her life. There was no committment here so there is nothing to save.

If she is married, you would be interfering with someone else's marriage.

Or .... they have (secretly) been together a lot longer than you think!

nexus, what happened here is that you were renting the car and someone else came along and BOUGHT that car. That is fair play.

If I go up to the car lot and tell the owner I am "committed" to a certain car but never pay him or sign papers, then he is free to sell the car to the first buyer. He owes me nothing.

You didn't put a ring on it.

AHEM, Miss Melly.

You agree with whom?

I kind of knew this would happen. Rather than offer real advice in this situation all the "it wasn't legal so it doesn't matter" people come out of the woodwork to gloat.

Look, this relationship follows all the classic patterns of an affair. This isn't just cheating on your high school crush. Her sister and I are worried for her safety with this guy who seems to be pretty aggressive and controlling. Also the way she didn't tell anyone about her marriage (assuming it's true) and he has been isolating her from everyone she knows.

So, should I just go to Plan B basically and hope that the marriage breaks up, which seems likely considering the guy and the circumstances of the wedding (assuming it's real)?

Go to plan B and hope for the best. If true, she's married. As for the guy being controlling, worried for her safety, etc, that's her sister and parents concern now.

You seem prepared to accept only advice that tells you what you want to hear. Why do you see people pointing out that you should stay out of her marriage as gloating?

Pep's advice is correct:

I'm not saying I shouldn't stay out of their marriage, for my own sanity as well. What I'm saying is since the marriage seems so ill conceived should I just move on or should I try a Plan B?

But, yes, I think the people who say "well you didn't put a ring on it" minimize the depth of our relationship.

However deep it was, it was not a marriage. Is pointing that out "gloating", which is what you said above?

Do you really think that the fact that you were never married makes no difference?

I realise that you went over this argument many times with various people in the threads that disappeared. You do not accept Dr Harley's views of how the two relationships are different and you do not accept those arguments from anybody here. The problem is that people here believe in the unique, binding, legal and public status of marriage (and the religious status, if they made their vows before God). Married people make a public and legal commitment to stay faithful and to care for and honour each other until death. When we make that commitment we know what we are signing up for. There is a publicly and legally understood view of marriage, understood between the spouses themselves, and between them and the rest of the world.

There is no such understanding of living together. It might be a practical and financial arrangement. It might be a trial marriage. It might be a quasi-marriage. It might be lack of commitment by one or both parties. Whatever the arrangement it is not a declaration to the world at large, and sometimes, it seems, each individual in the arrangement might have his or her own view of it, unknown to the other. Your ex-girlfriend might have felt that she was not married to you and free to leave and pursue other interests. That is certainly how she eventually behaved, and you do not have the moral background of marriage from which to say she was wrong to do this. She was wrong to date or sleep with someone behind your back, but she has left you and is not doing this behind your back any longer, and she has apparently married someone else. However bizarre her marriage might seem, she has the moral right to marry.

Dr Harley's plans are designed to be used in marriages, where the legal, public and often religious commitment has been made and believed in by both parties. It is doubtful whether the plans will have much impact without the moral force that marriage brings to the concept of adultery.

The part of Plan B where you insulate yourself from her marriage (not her "affair") to avoid being hurt will be good for you. The part of Plan B where you wait for the marriage (not "affair") to end is up to you. Do you want to wait for her? If so, for how long? I don't think there is any "should" in this; if you want to wait you will, regardless of what anybody here says.

I certainly do not think you should send her any kind of Plan B letter telling her you are waiting (if she is legally married), because you should not be trying to undermine her marriage by having any emotional interactions with her. You may not wish her well in her marriage but you should respect its status and stay out of it completely.

Dr Harley's plans were created during extensive research on what works for couples in traditional marriages.

From the blurb about his book Defending Traditional Marriage:

Traditional marriage is a permanent and sexually exclusive relationship of extraordinary care between one man and one woman.

Defending Traditional Marriage

If your relationship was never established publicly and legally as a permanent relationship, then the methods devised by Dr Harley to help and support traditional marriage are not likely to work. If you have altered the model of traditional marriage to suit your own desires, Dr Harley's plans are unlikely to be applicable.

Nexus,

You are receiving the brutal truth here. But, you need to look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why you didn't marry her. My take is she was dying for commitment and jumped at the first opportunity.

nexus,

Permit me to be blunt here. We are not minimizing the depth of your relationship. What we KNOW is that for whatever reason you or your GF never had the "depth" of relationship to make it permenant, someone in this relationship has been holding back for YEARS.

I don't know if it was you or if it was her, but someone was not committed enough to make it a real marriage.

Now if she has married the OM, apparently he was willing and so was she. This means quite simply you are out and you need to stay out. Why? Because clearly she was NOT THE RIGHT GIRL FOR YOU. If she were, you two would not be talking about a 9 year relationship, you would be talking about a marriage.

Those are the FACTS. Pep has been where you have been. I and others have been in long term relationships that ended. The difference is that most of us have now been married for many decades and know the difference between a relationship and a marriage...you don't yet. You will when you find the right woman.

Oh! and whether the marriage is ill conceived or not is really none of your concern. While painful to do, you need to move on. You now know she is willing and capable of throwing you over the side without so much as an apology or explanation. You don't need a woman like that in your life. Oh, and spare me the "evil OM" made her do it. She did it because she wanted to and whether she was lied to or not, she made the decision, she pulled the trigger on the affair, she moved out, and she may now be married. ALL HER DECISIONS!

So step back, heal, learn, and perhaps figure out why a 9 relationship never turned into a marriage. I suspect there is a lot for you to learn in this area.

JL

Let me tell this as a parable. Metaphorically speaking, you had a cow. You had her for years, but you never actually bought the cow, nor was there any fence around her for either protection or containment. Now she's left the pasture, and apparently found someone willing to pay the price AND build a fence. If this is true, you are now on the outside of the fence looking in. There is no way inside. The pasture belongs to another bull, no matter HOW long you got free milk from the cow nor how much you enjoyed the cow (the milk, the cream, the butter, the cheese) while it was yours, and before she wandered out of the paddock and into a more appealing field with an actual fence.

Of course, if she's lying about being married, there is no reason why you can't try to win her back. The question there would be: Why do you want to? But that's a whole different parable, I think.

tl

nexus6,

I am sorry for your pain and I understand completely where you are coming from. I have realised from reading the book Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders that I was a buyer from the day my WS and I met our SF need together. Being married made no difference to my commitment to him and when we did marry I had no qualms and was very happy. Unfortunately, my WS did not go from Renter to Buyer. He stayed at Renter level for a long time before taking me completely for granted and moving to Freeloader status.

Your gf was never fully committed to your relationship and if you had married her, there is a strong chance that she would have still not moved into Buyer status. It may be a good thing that you did not marry because I think the pain is 100 times worse when you know that they made a solemn promise to be faithful in front of witnesses and they broke that promise.

If she is married, then you need to stay out of it because otherwise you may end up with the label of OM, and you don't want that.

Take care.

Here's the hard reality.

Your GF was just using you for financial support until the man she really wanted came along.

I've been down that road before and it ain't my first rodeo.

My friend, you minimized the depth of it by taking it no further than a dating situation. A dating situation that didn't work out. You never took it any more seriously than that, so you can't expect others to either.

No one is trying to be mean to you, nexus, but want to point out that there is a world of difference between dating and getting married. You might have "considered" yourself married, but that doesn't mean it's so.

>minimize the depth of our relationship

So has she.

People on here are strict constructionists. They are mostly spouses betrayed in the coventant of marriage and therefore take a STRICT interpretation of what defines a marriage. If there were ANY wiggle room it would appear that they have wayward tendencies. You will get little support around here for "living in sin" round here. You can do a plan B. Completely cut her off from you and force the OM to meet all her needs. If she is married, and you interfere, tecnically she would be committing adultery..DUDE

Well, it is not cause and effect! We do not take a strict view of marriage BECAUSE we have been betrayed. We take the view that either one is married or not whether we have been betrayed or not.

There is no logic in that statement. It makes no sense. If people believe that living together is just like being married that does not mean that they themselves have wayward tendencies.

Many of us, including me, have "lived together" before marriage. Some people here use the term "living in sin." The point is, it is not marriage and applying the Harley plan to it is problematic.

Plan B is for an affair during a marriage. It has its force because there was a marriage. This poster was not married and the now HUSBAND is not the OM. Of course he should meet all her needs. That is what he promised to do when he married the ex girlfriend. There is no moral force that can be brought to end this legal marriage.

huh? dude, someone doesn't have to be married or have been betrayed to possess simple logic. A person is either married or they are not. I can call myself a tomato but it doesn't mean I am a tomato, it just means I am probably insane. It is the same with marriage. A person is either married or they are not. There is a world of difference between dating and marriage and all the denial in the world will not erase that.

We aren't helping this gentleman by helping him evade reality. His situation will only improve if he faces reality.

Exactly, I telling him the slant on here is more strict than he would experience in the general public. Yes, I believe you should NEVER live w/ someone til married. Yes, I believe you should NEVER sleep w/ anyone til married. That ain't main stream and when you bend those rules, then your spouse bends rules, we get where we are now. If you have a strict contructionist view of marriage it should be all the way around in my view. I'm warning him that on here it will be more strict than he is probably accustomed to, not that I don't feel the same way...DUDE

Exactly..."Plan B" where nexus is concerned is called "a breakup"...Sometimes people do get back together of course, however, if nexsus' ex-gf is indeed married, well then it's best if he comes to the logical conclusion~~~> His relationship with ex-gf is officially over...forever...

I'm sorry that you are hurting, nexsus, but denying reality will only prolong the hurt...

Mrs. W

You have mischaracterized the discussion. We didn't tell him he shouldn't sleep with someone until married. We didn't tell him he shouldn't live with someone until married. That is not the issue at all.

The issue is whether living together is the same as being married. IT AIN'T. He fancies himself as the equivalent of a married man and believes his girlfriend is morally obliged to him. She is not. She is a free agent because he never bothered to marry her.

I'm sorry, but when you just live together and date, both people are FREE AGENTS. If you don't buy the cow, then anyone else is free to purchase the cow at any time. Nothing wrong with that!

Not really, I was explaining to him WHY his view of common law wife on here ain't getting him ANYWHERE. Their friends/family may have viewed them as married, but not on here. Also, sexual contact should ONLY take place inside of marriage in an ideal situation. Once we start slipping on that requirement, then folks are doing it while married and everyone is shocked[ON HERE} their spouse cheated on them when they had 23 lovers before they were married??! DUDE

I would hope both parties had knowledge of such so they could make the best decision..DUDE

Again, the issue is not WHY he shouldn't live with a woman, but that there is a difference between married and not married. The reason the notion that he is "married" isn't getting him anywhere, is because HE IS NOT MARRIED. Its not a complicated thing. Most 5 year olds can discern between married and not married. THAT is the issue, Dude.

Apparently he does not accept that she is a free agent and feels she has betrayed him by moving on. That is the "best decision" to her.

Interestingly the Supreme Court and the IRS would actually beg differ w/ you on this subject matter. The courts have ruled numerous times if a couple "Holds themselves out" as a married couple(sharing checking accounts, buying a house together), they ARE MARRIED IN THE EYES OF THE STATE. I'm sure those Ivy League law gradiates know a little more than a five year old. Nice try though...DUDE

Gray area. It sounds as though it was a committed relationship and if she is not married, plan B could still apply so he has tools at his disposal on this forum...DUDE

Dude,

Several people posted to this thread saying that there is a difference between marriage and non-marriage, and pointing out that since this couple were not married, the ex-girlfriend is a free agent.

They explained themselves very well and perfectly clearly. If they had wanted to say that they did not approve of "living in sin" they would have said that. If their objection to this poster's position was that sex outside marriage was wrong then they were free to use those words. They did not raise those issues.

It was not your place to to interpret those posts and put YOUR words into other posters mouths and say that what YOU feel is what they really meant:

Please tell the original poster that this is what you believe, if you want to, but please do not take it upon yourself to tell him that your view is what other posters really meant. You have mischaracterised what I said and I object to that. If anything I have said is not clear then I would be happy to explain it IN MY OWN WORDS.

Whatever...DUDE

Agree. Perfectly said, as usual.

Whatever, please see the moodiness thread as it may have relevance...DUDE

"Whatever"?

Dude, that is what my 13 year old son and his friends say when they have lost an argument!

Agreed. Apart from the spelling mistake.

Remind me how exactly did people become married before there were written laws and documentation put into place record marriages. How did slaves marry without permission from there slave driver owners who would document it.

Verbal commitment between 2 parties.

Maybe this was a case where one partner made the verbal commitment thinking the other was on board as well.

And before you all barrage me with the facts. There are still regions in the world where people marry without pieces of paper or laws binding them. In truth the relationship is bound by respect for one another, honor for family, and hard work towards being a successful family. Each person brings something to the table to equally provide in the relationship.

Unfortunately, the facts don't support your assertion that living together and marriage are the same. Living together is a month to month renters agreeement, very different from a buyer agreement. They are very different animals. There is a higher than 85% divorce rate in marriages that began shacking up. Most domestic violence occurs in live together situations and in marriages that began by living together.

Dr. Harley was interviewed on NPR about a year ago with the publisher of Bride Magazine, who was pushing the notion that couples should live together before marriage. Dr. Harley cited study after study showing it led to domestic assualt for a high percentage of couples and rarely ever led to a happy marriage. The publisher of Bride could not support her position and had no studies supporting her stance. Many experts refer to it as "the curse of living together before marriage."

So, you can pretend it is all the same, but that reflects an ignorance about what committment means. That would be like me going down to the car lot and making a "verbal committment" to the 98' Red Camaro but never signing any papers and never paying the dealer. Am I committed or am I talking crap? I can call myself "committed" but that still leaves the red Camaro wide open to the first buyer who shows up with the money. As they say in Texas, money talks and BS walks.

In nexus's case, his failure to make a real committment, left his GF available for someone else to make a REAL committment to her. She was not married and was perfectly free to marry this man. He is now her H and nexus is just a former boyfriend.

Honestly not everyone in the world is a member of the same religion or beliefs. Visit other countries that are in the middle of no where. That don't have a local government or registar. They make a verbal commitent to each other and it works a whole heck of a lot better than it does in the more technilogically advanced and organized regions of the world.

There are men and women of tribes who have been "married" for MANY years and have an equal partnership in there marriage. Honor, loyalty, and respect. Something alot of the world has forgotten.

SIHW, but that is all irrelevant. Facts are facts. Your beliefs will not change facts. Marriages that began living together have an 85% divorce rate and the highest rate of domestic violence.

Making a "verbal committment" is meaningless. Try buying a car or a house making a "verbal committment." Talk is cheap, and that is evidenced by the exorbitant amount of marriages that fail that began living together.

Seems sort of irresponsible of you to recommend something here with such a high failure rate. What could possibly motivate you to recommend such a losing proposition to others?

Do you live together yourself? Is that why you would recommend such a losing strategy to others?

Irrelevant....

really so other cultures have differnt beliefs. and That makes them not married because they don't have a church or state that makes marriage law?

How did your ancestors deal with this before written law and organization?

Your talking about YOUR facts. I am disscussing the facts that are relevant to other people in other countries around the world. People who don't live as we do here.

ok we are talking Scenerios.

A member of an amazonian tribe leaves the tribe on a journey to get medicine for a sick villager. A woman accompanies him. He and this woman according to the customs of the tribe made a verbal commitment to each other. She is considered his "wife" by this custom.

While in the city his "wife" becomes enamored by the city and chooses to leave him. So by your consideration she was never really his wife (a free agent) then because they were not married in a church or by a justice of the peace?

I have not recommended anything regarding people liveing together and I am not telling you that you are wrong. that is YOUR beliefs I am saying before we label that marriage is ONLY this way you need to consider the differences people have in religion and customs. Just because we don't understand anothers culture does not mean their traditions and customs are wrong.

My marriage is not the basis of this discussion....please don't try to redirect it that way.

SIHW, but none of these rationalizations address FACTS about our culture so it is irrelevant. There is an 85% divorce rate in marriages where the couple lived together first.

All of this sounds very much like the kind of rationalizations I would expect from someone who engages in risky behavior herself.

Which begs the question: do you live together yourself? Are you in such a situation?

SIHW, I noticed a few minutes ago that your signature did not say

ME:31
DS:6
H:29

but said this:

ME:31
DS:6
F:29

Why the quick change? And what does the "F" stand for?

Wow....i would appreciate it if you would back off from the manipulative insunations to attack my character.

They really are juvenile.

Avoidance of a relevant question is what I am seeing.
What if this man came to this country looking for his "wife". what if he came here?

Would you tell him he was never married just because his tribes custom and culture is different from ours?

It's a simple answer.

Since you seem to want to intrude on my private life instead of answering the question at hand. I LIVE WITH MY HUSBAND! Thank you.

Before:
ME:30
DS:5
F:28

After:

ME:31
DS:6
H:29

Haha funny.....maybe next time you copy something you will copy it BEFORE I update it instead of editing it manually.... if you had done it right you would have noticed the ages were old as well. I apologize that I don't update things on a regular basis to keep you informed of the happenings in my life.

SIHW, why did you change your signature so suddenly?

Because you made me notice I had not changed it in quite some time...though maybe I should update it.....is that a problem with you?

Why are you sooooo interested suddenly in ME? I have also noticed we have moved now away from the ORIGINAL topic.

ooooooookay...... Moving on from the avoidance tap dance...

For those who want to read Dr Harley's opinion on living together, which is backed up by facts and evidence, it is located here:

excerpt from Living Together Before Marriage
continued here

Well....so I take it Marriage builders has no answer for people of different customs and cultures who come here regarding the relevance of there union based on there traditions?

The question remains...would Marriage builders be able to offer them help?

SIHW, but I thought you said they have happy, wonderful shack ups in other cultures? So what would they be seeking help FOR? Your question makes no sense.

What is the divorce rate in the Amazonian jungle, hun?

You are very caught up on the 'other culture' concept pertaining to your relationship.

In another culture, they would be married if they followed that cultures traditional commitment to do so.

If you are in a culture and do not follow the traditional formula of a couple truly committing, but create your own commitment procedure......you are not 'married' but you are committed until you are not.

I am sorry you are hurting so much from the dissolving of the committment you had with your mate and she re-mated with someone else.

It really is sad.

haha...good one.

I was discussing the scenerio...you must have missed it. Like I tell my son...it's important to pay attention and you won't miss anything.

Here I will post it for you again so you can catch up:
"A member of an amazonian tribe leaves the tribe on a journey to get medicine for a sick villager. A woman accompanies him. He and this woman according to the customs of the tribe made a verbal commitment to each other. She is considered his "wife" by this custom.

While in the city his "wife" becomes enamored by the city and chooses to leave him. So by your consideration she was never really his wife (a free agent) then because they were not married in a church or by a justice of the peace?"

"Would you tell him he was never married just because his tribes custom and culture is different from ours? "


"The question remains...would Marriage builders be able to offer them help?"

Now remember this is just a scenerio....It's not real. It's like a test question someone would ask to see if this program might help them. So they would be able to know if possibly people from other cultures can gain the knowledge and insight to help there "marriages".

sorry, SIHW, but I don't answer hypotheticals, and I don't speak for Marriage Builders, hun.

Well I guess we will never know if Marriage Builders can help everyone in the world then.

I have noticed that the "other culture" angle seems to be a common rationalization embraced by those who live[d] together. It is like whistling past the graveyard and unfortunately does nothing to erase the fact that there is an 85% divorce rate amongst those who live together before marriage.

I guess not.

I've been following along amusedly all day, but haven't said anything.

I don't think MB principles can be applied to everyone in the world. What about cultures where it's acceptable for men to have more than one wife? It would be difficult, I think, to apply these principles to a harem sort of situation.

As far as people in primitive cultures who do not have the ability to get married - I doubt seriously that that's going to be the situation of anyone with access to the internet, and thus, the MB forum. I would guess that most of the developed world has some sort of legally established marital relationship.

The fact is that the OP could have married his girlfriend and, for whatever reason, didn't. Now, she is apparently married to someone else. She has chosen to enter into a legally recognized relationship with another man. She was never in a legally recognized relationship with the OP. If she is married, and he continues to pursue a relationship with her, he becomes the OM because he is intruding on someone else's marriage.

SIHW

"There are still regions in the world where people marry without pieces of paper or laws binding them."

The problem is we don't live in one of those regions. Or does the original Poster.

He was not willing to brand her/put a wedding ring on her finger.

Living together is not the same as being married. That final commitment was never made.

Living together is just full time dating. This arrangement just facilitates the ease at which one can get laid as often as one wants.

People can commit to live as man and wife on there own. Ship wrecked on an uncharted island, no hope of being found. Or where the man and woman live it�s so remote there is no priest, no judge, no church. Places as these are getting harder and harder to find in this world these days.

This couple in the western world as all others that have chosen to live together with a church on one corner and a jewelry store on the corner other have no excuse for not committing to get married.

They just were not only unwilling to get married, they were unwilling to commit, and they were fogged up in that they were unwilling to admit that they refused to make the full and final commitment.

EXCUSE ME, you two, but I addressed this point earlier in the thread.

You see: if you want to know the right answer, just ask me.

Dr Harley talks about traditional marriage as defined in our Western, Christian-based societies. He does not claim that the scope of his plans covers every model of marriage that has ever existed, because he has not researched those models. I do believe that he has said that MB can create romantic, mutually fulfilling, happy marriages even in arranged marriages where there was no romantic love to begin with, but those marriages must be exclusive between one man and one woman. Thus the programme is not designed for polygamous cultures, where having more than one spouse (usually a wife) is perfectly legal, nor for swingers, who reject the model of a sexually exclusive relationship.

As for the Amazonians: if the arrangement that you describe is a legitimate marriage for that culture, then the couple is married. That does not mean that any other legal jurisdiction would recognise the legality of their marriage, but their own culture would. If they were to seek marriage counselling in their society, they would be recognised as married and given advice based on the assumptions of what marriage means to that society. They could hardly expect to go outside their culture to receive effective and appropriate marriage counselling, if that counselling was based on a wholly different set of assumptions about marriage.

America (and the UK, where I am) has a recognised and established concept of legal marriage. If you have gone through the legal procedure you are married. If you have not, you are not. Marriage in the US carries certain assumptions within it, including being a permanent and sexually exclusive relationship of extraordinary care between one man and one woman (Dr Harley).

MB has been researched on, and is designed for, such marriages, not for the world's variety, and not for living together situations.

All, please see the moodiness BW thread. IT APPLIES HERE. Of course they were in a committed relationship for 9 years similar to a christian based marriage. Maybe they got together in a witcan ceremony by a tree w/ garlic hanging from their necks? IDK I'm sure they held themselves out as married, so MB plan A and B can apply assuming she hasn't married the OM. That is the FACTS....DUDE

Dude, are you ready to come out of your room and be nice?

Yeah, how's things w/ you Cane? How are you doing? DUDE

Wiccan. Not witcan.

Don't see how it matters anyway. It's obvious that the man saw what was posted and bolted.

>All, please see the moodiness BW thread. IT APPLIES HERE.

As for that, I also don't see how moodiness has ANYTHING to do with this.

But perhaps I'm just hormonal or something.

Gah.

SC, it's obvious that he's NOT ready.

THANK YOU Sugar for giving such a detailed answer to my original question.

So if MB is based for christian marriages of the western world...would you say it holds more relevance for marriages after a certain time period? As we know generations change through time and things are much different than those of our forfathers. Also with the roles of women changing from inside the home to the work force of america. What time period would best suit MB? What I mean is I know deffinatly the current marriages but what would be the earliest period of marriage MB would cover?

(Curiousity based and nothing else)

I'm tip top, thank you for asking, but YOU, young man, are taking your life in your hands annoying all these moody women.

I'll just say the roller coaster ride for some on here are more obvious than others. Thanks for the wiccan spelling correction...DUDE

They love me...I'm their (f)WH they always wanted to "tell off" but don't want to LB!! hehe

>...I'm their (f)WH

Not even close.

Not even!!!

I couldn't find it answered here--did the OP and the non-wife have children together?

If she's married, it doesn't make him betrayed, it makes him a stalker.

It's my pleasure, but is that polite way of saying that I ramble on?!

Okay, that's true.

Well, hold on, I did not say "Christian marriages". I said

Dr Harley speaks of "traditional marriage", not "Christian marriage". He makes clear that he and his wife are Christians, and I believe that he refers to Biblical guidance for those who want it (my copy of SaA is upstairs somewhere, but I believe there is a section in there, and on this web site) but he does not offer his counsel to only Christian marriages.

I'm wary of assuming a role of Dr Harley's official interpreter (but if Dr Harley would like to offer me that role I'd be happy!)

That said, my reading of Dr Harley's descriptions (picked up here and there; I have not read the whole Defending book) are that he favours traditional roles because they have worked over many generations.

Dr Harley himself wrote on this forum only yesterday of his recognition that men and women have different emotional needs.

That does not sound like a particularly traditionalist view at first glance, but I believe that it is, because it goes against the current orthodoxy that "men" and "women" are social constructions. One brand of feminism has it that "male" and "female" are biological facts that can usually be established at birth. However, sex means nothing outside the reproductive area. Our sex does not determine our behaviour, talents or "emotional needs". Behaviour etc is something that is socially conditioned, and women have been oppressed by that conditioning. Hence they must not seek men to be the breadwinners, protectors, disciplinarians, furniture movers or mammoth-slayers. They do not need men to be those things - they just think they do because that is what they have been taught.

Dr Harley is very clever, in my view, at staying out of feminist arguments but I detect an opinion that feminism and changing roles have not done marriage many favours, and he is not sure that men or women are particularly happy with the changes, either.

I see his polite reticence about feminism here:

If I would dare put words into the great Dr's mouth even more, I would say that he would not tell women to get back to the kitchen, and he would not say that real men do not change nappies. He does not tell us how to live. But subtly, I think he makes us question how we have chosen to live (as individuals, and as a society) and asks us whether modern marriage has made us happy.

Husbands and wives live separate, independent lives and do not answer to each other for how they spend their time or their money, and then they wonder how their IB led to breakdown of their marriage. They claim their rights to nights out with the boys or girls, separate holidays, socialising with colleagues after work instead of coming home, and then wonder how a friendship turned into an affair.

No IB, total POJA, spending practically all non-working time together, no RC with other people...most, if not all Harley principles take us back to more traditional marriages than the ones many of us have now.

I was a bit of a loony feminist in my youth and though I gave most of it up when I moved with with my H, Dr Harley's views have made me think about all this again.

Pfffft sugar you crack me up.

Makes one wonder when the roles in the traditional marriage changed so much in society that MB became in such high need?

Was it the economy, womens move to independance, ever changing social freedoms, war, disco music, dare I say it.... woodstock (j/K)?

Oh, it's all those things! No kidding about it! You nailed it.

Hang on a minute; disco music??

What did Kool and the Gang ever do to deserve that?

Bow chicka wah wah....

Heck yeah disco took music from the guitar rock n roll to the sultry under tones daring and enticing the mind and body to move to the rhythm.

In other words devil music...hahaha.

J/K

Kool and the Gang disco? I always classified them as R&B.

Don't give them undue credit. They were pure disco, including the crimes against fashion.

Who were you thinking of? Chic? Donna Summer? Surely not the Bee Gees?

(Psst. Do you think this bloke will ever want his thread back?)

Good post SC.

I too have a history of being a bit of a feminist. Many would say, a LOT of a feminist.

I have to say that I feel a little mis-led by the disingenuous information that told me "I could have it all" - Career, huband, children, perfect home, and social life.

It left me totally exhausted and unhappy because in trying to have it all; in trying to have the supposed perfect life, I felt like a failure at everything.

I'm having to re-think a lot of my beliefs, but let me say that doesn't mean I ever want to be chained to the kitchen sink.

Maybe it's all the above thats made me so moody. What do you think Dude?

Well then *pops her collar and strikes a pose from saturday night fever*

(He hasn't returned to claim or comment on anything. Hope he wasn't scared off. Even single people can learn a lot from this place.)

Oh - my post looks a little out of place now amongst all your Kool and the Gang talk. I liked the Commodores myself.

I thought we were having a serious discussion and you lot go amd make it all lighthearted and fun.

Thanks, sere! I'm hoping Dr Harley will be so incensed by my characterisation of his views that he will come here and set me straight.

You forgot the "looney" tag. Did you ever read those columns in Private Eye - "Looney Feminist Nonsense"?

I think Dude is in his room, hiding from the moody feminists.

I saw the Commodores supporting the Jacksons at the Rainbow, Finsbury Park, in 1978. Now THAT was disco.

The manufacture cessation of Methaqualone.

Wow that was the year I was born and I still know who those groups are.

I do have to say tho the temptations are my favorite oldies group.

Um....SC...SIHW just called you OLD!!!!

(snort)

I have never been so insulted in all my life!!!

SIHW, go to your room!

But in a totally loving and respectful manner.....

*bats eyelashes*

No one could be as graceful or have such a thrilling sense of humor for her age like Sugar...she is a gem!

Agreed..Some are worse though and don't even know. That's what REALLY SCARY!! DUDE

SIHW, you are making this worse and worse. How have you managed to get BOTH feet into your mouth at the same time?

Any more of this and I take me and my walking stick to somewhere we can be appreciated.

I ran 4.5 miles this morning. Can you say the same?

(Okay, it took me 4 hours, but that's not the point.)

Speaking for myself, I base my responses on THIS culture.

Well my mama always call me Iron backside!
Apparently as a child many bloodvessels of the hand were broken over my backside...thank god for giving me j-lo booty.

Just know sugar I do appreciate you dearest.

Update: I went down to the county records office at the behest of her sister and it looks like they're not legally married. According to her sister it was a 2am "ceremony" kind of thing. However he is. The divorce isn't final yet and he has kids. So yes there is some adultery going on here, ugg.

She called me yesterday, but didn't really get into anything, but said that "I need to be a priority" whatever that means. This thing is so bizarre.

Well then....seems like you have some exposure to do to OM's wife. She definitely has a right to know whats going on especially his family.

Yep, trying to find his wife's name now. Her sister is going to handle the contact.

Has anyone ever tried an "intervention" style thing. Her sister and brother-in-law are thinking of coming into town and were thinking something like that might provide a dose of the real world. This guy seems to be trying to cut her off from everyone, which is kind of scary.

Poor cow. Two bulls, and nobody willing to either make a purchase or build a fence.

tl

Is she a submissive person? Thats what I am getting. Honestly most women I know would put him in his place for pulling that crap...then again Most women I know are italian and keep a rolling pin handy.

But honestly....like a doctor I knew use to say...never self diagnose before the lab results are in. Here are the things you KNOW. 1 She isn't married.....2 He is......3 She is an adult who unfortunately like all Americans she has the right to make decisions for herself. You might not like the result of those decisions but that is her god given freedom as an American. If she has gotten herself into this mess.....you cannot force her out of it unless she wants out. SHE has to want it. If her sister wants to do an intervention let her.....have you ever watched the show intervention? The family meets with the intervention co-ordinator and then they all confront the person who needs help. People who love and care for her. Generally it is only family members and a boyfriend or fiance she is in a relationship with.

I am not so sure you being involved in the intervention (if it happens) is a good idea. It might even make things worse. Should her family do this she will know they do not support her in this relationship. If your there you will probally be blamed for EVERYTHING and be used as the emotional scape goat for her to get out of it. And in the end it is HER decision for what happens. If it is just her family the emotional state of the intervention might stay calmer for her to make a more rational decision.

Just my opinion.

Redemption....DUDE

I wasn't thinking I should be part of the "intervention". I'm starting to realize with the help of my counselor and her sister that she's probably in the early stages of alcoholism. Which would explain some of the bizarre behavior.

Her sister also pulled a background check on the guy and he appears to be a pretty shady guy with a felony theft convictions from when he was younger. However, I'm realizing that no I can't save her unless she wants to be saved, so it's time for me to start worrying about me now.

Nex,

Kudos on finding out The Truth instead of buying into lies.

Remember some key components..

#1 - Affair partners always affair down. He'll be a creep no matter what, 'k? If you both considered yourselves married without the paper, then you MUST consider this adultery. That's the only rational way to look at it through your experience.

#2 - You BOTH played fantasy marriage...without being married. You did it for nine years, playing house and living together. Are there children, btw? Because you BOTH chose to do this, play married, you have her continuing (nothing new) in fantasy...and only you got off the train, and stepped into reality. (Kudos again.)

#3 - Since you both declared yourselves married, then you can do the brave thing and file for separation/divorce from your common-law wife. See, separating nine years of stuff, mutual debts, finding the lines of what separates yours from hers, is essential to bringing that reality you are now in.

Stop avoiding conflict...it's part of the reason you are where you are. And YOU will repeat these patterns no matter who you are with...for you aided and abetted her in her wayward mindset. If you make this all her fault...and not own the half which was yours, then you'll repeat and repeat...and that's a lot of continued pain to distract from in your future.

How about make new boundaries around your choices...that you will not live with a girlfriend until you're married? That you will hold yourself to choosing your actions instead of living reactively? Where you will have predetermined way of addressing conflict, knowing and verifying the truth, eliminating assumptions?

And choose whether or not you are going to fight to redeem the last nine years, assess your risks (you're risky and so is she), or move on (which means if there are no children, going no contact with her and her family).

Make your goal for your life...is this what you want again in the future, or do you really want to live differently? In what way? And then plan to that goal...hold yourself to your new goal and plan...and thrive, 'k?

LA

KUDOS to all of the MB members helping Nexus versus those that were ready to throw him to the wolves for supposedly "RENTING" a spouse NINE years..REDEMPTION ROCKS! DUDE

Not to hijack this thread or anything but I just have to say , Dude you remind me of a poster that was here when I first came here several yrs ago.

Your responses and such remind me of his. His name was lemomman. He was very direct just like you.... Keep up the good work.....

Hijack over .....

Okla

Thanks! I am Super Man! DUDE

Unfortunately, Nexus clearly indicated HE knew the difference between being married and "LIKE" being married. Any common law marriage spouse in any culture or society that recognizes such and internalizes such won't show up here qualifying their relationship...they will simply indicate they are married. A cheating live-in girlfriend remains NOT adultery so no "redemption" here, she's still free to date any suitor she fancies.


Which is why this statement is so predictable:

.

Quite the "renter" statement...wouldn't you say? He just learned his "wife" isn't even married to this "om" but he's looking for the exit....without any of the complications of a messy divorce to deal with. Just gotta divide some property up, move out and move on just like any tenant.

However, kuddos to nexus for recognizing it's time for him to move on and look for healthier alternatives...this girl doesn't sound like marriage material anyway.

Mr. Wondering

I'm Brave, I'll add my 3 cents worth (extra cent because of inflation)

I am a committed MBer. I live in a culture that has 3 legally recognised relationships that are considered to be either marriage or 'in the nature of marriage'

1. Stand up in front of a JP/spiritual leader, recite a few words and sign a piece of paper. You are now marriage.

2. Stand in front of a JP and sign a piece of paper. You are now in a Civil Union.

3. Shack up with someone for 3 years. You are now a Defacto Spouse.

All of these need lawyers to extradite yourself from if you decide to not continue with the relationship. NZ is theoretically a Christian based society, although I have some doubts So, should Nexus be living in NZ he would be considered legally bound to his partner, and be offered the same rights and responsibilities as anyone in the other two 'marriages'. That means that if there was a MB counsellor here, he would have the right to request MB based help.

Disco was a bad thing.

Hahaha Another reason why I love you Lil!

>So, should Nexus be living in NZ he would be considered legally bound to his partner,

He's considered legally bound in Texas too. If he is here, he needs to see a lawyer and see what his options are.

In the center of the universe here in the US of A there are some States where there are things such as common law marriages. Where shacking after a period of time usually ten years, people are considered married under the law.

As there are common law marriegs after set periods of time in the world. Even in the outer regions of the third world on the border of the fourth world as in NZ.

In the US statistics show that the divorce rate is the highest in the marriages where people lived together many years before getting married.

They were never willing to make that initial committment.

How can on expect a marriage to last when people just go to full time dating to get full time SF?

This poster's thread point's this out. Neither were willing to say I do. They were unwilling to commit to be husband an wife.

Whether in a chucrh, court house, tribal setting, there was never a formal, recognized ceromony. They were not shipwrecked on an uncharted island with no hope of a priest floating in on a raft, let alone get rescued. They did not live in a place so remote that it would take them a six months to walk out to civilization to find a priest then repeat the trip to get back home.

This man is where he is because they both would not commit or if she would not and he was willing to settle for half a loaf thinking it would be better then none. Though sometimes none is better than half.

I am not against him wanting to save his relationship.

Being the way it started and progresed indicates that he places more value on it then it is worth.

Even Doc H say's not all marriages should be saved. But it is a choice for him to make. We are only pointing out the odds.

I asked before, but maybe it got lost in the subterfuge:
Are there any kids in this relationship or are we talking about two single people?

You miss the point of all these broken hearted posters. They are and must always be absolutist. It is the scar to the soul from being betrayed. There are no other relationships that equal marriage other than their defined version. If they give an inch on the definition, then they think, well, it never really was an ABSOLUTE relationship. Of course not! There heart has others in it from the past. They were never pure and you can bet they've been in love or intimate with other people before marriage(maybe even a previous marriage). Those people stay with them their entire lives. So in today's society, marriage is a partnership. Its an agreement to only have relations with their marriage partner til death OR divorce. No one wants to say that because no one wants to admit they had pre-marital sex and those sex partners stay w/ them FOREVER. It is for that reason alone that marriage has been forever altered. Now if you both saved yourselves, then yeah, you had the real deal. If not, you had an agreement. I will say it...DUDE

Two single people. No kids. My comment about worrying about me wasn't that I was giving up, more that I need to progress to a Plan B type situation as the current one is driving me insane.

Unfortunately it's not a common law state, so yes technically she's free to walk and do whatever she wants.

Look, I've stated before that I should have "put a ring on it" and that I fell into the typical living together before marriage trap. It was just really easy to let things continue as they were. So enough with the lecturing OK.

I think plan B is the best course of action for you. Plan B is not just a way to recover your relationship, it is also a path to personal recovery to let you move on if the wayward does not come back. You have invested a lot into your relationship. But, you have to determine for yourself if you are willing to do the time to recover your RELATIONSHIP before even considering marriage. From a practical standpoint, I would say you and the GF are at LEAST three years out from recovering enough to consider getting married.

I'm so sorry, Nexus.

Has the "intervention" happened yet?

If you cannot tolerate this anymore, then I do believe that distancing yourself from the drama and fear would be very good for you (and I know a lot about both, I do know your hurt).

You said she mentioned in her phone call, "I need to be a priority." What do you think she meant by that? Did she want that ring or was it something else?

Please see my prior post. YOU WILL GET LITTLE SYMPATHY HERE for your situation. They are absolutists. It is a symptom of betrayal. They can't help it. To acknoledge you have been betrayed by you WIFE, is counter to everything they believe and doesn't RISE to the same level of their being betrayed.DUDE

Is "sympathy" what you seek on MB?

I think most here seek sympathy for being in similar situations, yet this poor betrayed HUSBAND is SLAUGHTERED left and right cuz he never "put a ring on it" as if that stopped all the nasty waywards that people on here espouse to hate!

DUDE

I was asking the original poster.

He has said blatanty he needs sympathy and guidance??! How can you not read that in his posts? This man is hurting just as much as any betrayed spouse on here. Can you not feel the pain in his posts? Then he gets, "Well, your loss, you never put a ring on it" "It was never official, nothing compared to my betrayal, WAH WAH WAH!!!" DUDE

You've got to be kidding! That is some very flawed thinking.

Dude, are you implying that people who feel living together is not the same commitment as marriage have that conviction because they've been betrayed?

That would mean that they didn't have that belief prior to the infidelity in their marriage. I doubt very much that this is the case.

Dude, your fuzzy logic is showing through. One does not have to be an "absolutist" [whatever that may be] or have been "betrayed" to have the logic to discern the difference between dating and marriage. MrsW's 9 year old could do that. Common sense and a modicum of logic is all that is required.

We all know he is hurting, but pretending that this is a marriage does not help him resolve his problems. Attacking board members who know the difference does not help him. Nor does it help him avoid making the same mistake again in the future.

I was asking the original poster.

I agree, Plan B. It's really your only option at this point. Unfortunately, she has the right to walk and for her to lie about being married to this guy is a pretty strong indication she "thinks" she wants away from you.

Read up on Plan B. It is most effective at recovering you OR recovering your relationship...if you go completely dark. You see, in short order, your ex MAY test your resolve. She may want to maintain BOTH of you as options or turn to you as her confidant when she begins to want to remove herself from this controlling guy. But this would be unhealthy FOR YOU. Enabling her fence sitting/cake eating ways will only prolong the hurt and likely lengthen the time it takes for her to make her choices.

After you Plan B for awhile, things will settle down, you'll gain new interests and be more able to make a objective decision about whether you want to wait around for this girl. Frankly, she sounds a bit immature and nutty (though not much different than the typical wayward even though her actions weren't adultery). Hopefully you won't take too long to discern that you deserve better...but you (and her) got what you kinda asked for by not making a FULL commitment. (and I'm not being judgmental/lecturing as understanding YOUR part in this will help make you moving forward, accepting your responsibility in this mess and hopefully make you a better spouse to anyone someday...my wife and I did the shack up thing for 6 or 7 months preceeding our wedding...and look where that got us...HERE).

IF by chance you DO recover this relationship...there is a concept herein about recoveries wherein the recovering couples experience a few weeks or months of hysterical bonding. It's quite natural in these situations as you "reclaim" your woman and she "her man". I just want to warn you aforefront, it would be foolish for you to run out and marry her on a whim. Please, if you must, consider a long engagement and a proper wedding not mired in all this cheating crap. Such advice is meant to protect you and any potential marriage you have with this woman.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Don't go to Plan B until you are certain that this guys wife is made aware of the affair her husband is having with your ex. Provide her as much information as possible so she can know the truth about her life and respond accordingly.

I am saying, once betrayed, EVERYTHING is absolute. Either you're married or your not(some on here don't even seem to recognize common law). Its a heightened awareness that is a DIRECT result of being hurt so badly.ie BETRAYED! DUDE

Thats just nonsense. Even people who have not been betrayed can tell the difference between married and not married. It is a matter of SIMPLE LOGIC, Dude. Even 5 year olds can discern the difference.

EXCELLENT suggestion !

You might want to take that up with the Supreme Court whom VALIDATED common law marriages long ago. COMMON LAW IS COMMON SENSE, but on here, sometimes, common sense isn't so common because of BETRAYAL. It is a symptom. I'm sorry you don't recognize court cases dating back 100 years.

Texas is a common law state??!! Do you not believe in the laws that govern your state? Maybe you need to call Rick Perry and let him explain common law marriage statutes to you? IDK

Dude -- You might want to reconsider the position you're standing on. The reason COMMON LAW was recognized was because men were trying to BAIL on long term relationships by standing on the position that it WASN'T a MARRIAGE. The courts decided to protect the women who had endured these lengthy relationships without property rights.

Three elements must be present to form a common law marriage in Texas.

1. First, you must have "agreed to be married."

2. Second, you must have "held yourselves out" as husband and wife. You must have represented to others that you were married to each other. As an example of this, you may have introduced you partner socially as "my husband," or you may have filed a joint income tax return.

3. Third, you must have lived together in this state as husband and wife.

http://www.co.travis.tx.us/dro/common_law.asp

Recondider, you made my point. If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, its a F'n DUCK!! The statute in texas reads "If you hold yourself out as married" share property, shared checking, introduce yourselves in public as H/W so that that a "reasonable person" would assume you were married. THAT IS THE REQUIREMENT. A reasonable person, not a beytrayed spouse on MB.com!! If it were a civil suit all of you would be de-selected from the jury pool due to being betrayed because you are BIASED. A symptom of BETRAYAL...It is self-evident. DUDE

Interesting ... here is a link to Wiki article about

"palimony"

So, since you responded to your wife's infidelity as an opportunity instead of being hurt, are you saying you missed the "heightened awareness" bus?

How sad for you.

Again...common law marriages are irrelevent to this thread and this poster has asked that the "lecturing" cease...HE gets it. By arguing this irrelevent point YOU are the one mirring this thread in the continuing argument and further hurting/bashing the poster you claim to be so concerned with.

Mr. Wondering

Yep, I can gurantee you they would be considered COMMON LAW married in Texas. I have NO DOUBT. I've seen much weaker cases...I'll get a legal opinion from a Texas attorney if you'd like. My sister graduated from Baylor law..DUDE

This *link*

is also interesting.

Information for Unmarried Cohabitants

I see it. I feel it. I think its all part of DEFOGGING.(recognition it has changed my opinion and why some betrayed become absolutists)

I agree though, lets help the poster. He is a betrayed spouse w/ a ww like many of us and feels the EXACT SAME PAIN...DUDE

PLease leave the Left Coast out this discussion. That whole state is FUBAR!! Ya'll are handing out IOUs and can't even pay your sheet. Lets stick to a common law state like the GREAT STATE OF TEXAS!! DUDE

If this poster was in texas element number 2 refers to holding themselves out as husband/wife. Thus, if nexus were a texas (NZ or whatever) poster he'd have shown up here discussing his WIFE's affair.

He did not.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - sorry nexus. Good luck to you and all your future endeavors.

He called her is WW??! WTF.."Throw him to the wolves"...DUDE

Nexus, good luck to you and all your future endeavors.

(AKA ditto Mr W)

Adding....

This is the BEST book for your situation

Is becoming more "absolute" a good thing or a desease? Are you laying claim to "unheightened awareness" or your own special brand of OVER-heightened awareness. If so, I want some of that. Think I will start another thread and leave nexus alone. He's had a rough enough week.

Mr. Wondering

Nexxus, you can party like a rockstar with no fear of committing adultery.

It's called fornication in this respect.

Game on man!

NO similarity whatsoever. Being confrontational is not enough.
Lemonman was also wise.

tl

and had a modicum of kindness no matter how forthright he was being.

I feel very bad for this original poster. He was in a committed relationship and his girlfriend dumped him for a married guy. I think by practicing things like his needs/her needs, he can strengthen this, or a future relationship.
However.
DUDE.
I'm going to disagree with you when you said people who come on her asking for sympathy should always get it.
Case-in-point: We've had many other women or other men come on here, singing a sob story about how hurt they are. Heck, there's an entire web site where they all pat each other on the back and say, "there, there."
I'm sorry, but I DON'T feel sorry one bit for these OPs. They have made bad choices and are now feeling the hurt and anguish of those bad choices, yet they continue to make the same bad choices.
Just because you feel hurt does not mean you get my sympathy.
Now.
Back to our original poster.
Yes, I hope you and your girlfriend get back together if that is what makes you both happy. If you get the opportunity to get back together, work hard on emotional needs and love busters and that should strengthen your relationship.
Once it's strong enough, then and ONLY THEN should you consider "putting a ring on it."

And all of us that took the extra step of "putting a ring on it" that are on this board no just how well that "extra step of committment" helped???! Hell, maybe he is smarter than us and knew the odds of betrayal are so high today, why ever marry knowing the odds of your spouse cheating are 50% or GREATER?!! DUDE

Even a MM? For some reason I didn't think that was looked favorably upon here.

Their is no judgementment on here, only codified LAW. A live-in GF for nine years? I bet you HER parents considered them married. I wish her dad would get on this forum to blow away all the betrayed'(s) arguments that they were not in a relationship recognized by the state as MARRIAGE..DUDE

What do you know about marriage anyways? You openly betrayed your wife.

Certainly NOT a married man. Thanks for the clarification.

T/J

:::waving to BHHFS::::



LA

end of T/J

Thank you Pariah. Yanno Dude, I'm beginning to wonder about your IRL status.

Yep, how better to learn? I just had lunch w/ my beautiful fwxw. We had a great lunch date. I love her so much. She is the sweetest woman I've ever known. I'm very sorry for betraying(retaliating against) her. I understand all of your sensitivity. I'm losing the bad parts of my betrayal which is the utter hate and disgust of waywards and people whom don't value marriage as we do. I'm holding on to the belief system that our culture holds(common law marriage). I think its part of the recovery. I feel that statements on here are so far from main stream(again, symptom of betrayal) that you are forever scarred, and at times, you still bleed..I'm so sorry for you all. It speaks to the intense pain you are feeling and looking forward to forever.

DUDE

>looking forward to forever.

Looking forward to it?

Gah.

Where is YOUR compassion?

(BHHFSGuy waves back)

I think there are some on here whom were betrayed years and years ago, yet seem to still have the hate in disgust of waywardness which speaks volumes to not moving on and recovering. They see this as their future, forever a BS. DUDE

I mean to have trashed a marriage is a valuable way to make amends and know where/how I failed.ie Lessons Learned...DUDE

>Lessons Learned

TG for that.

>forever a BS

It is a PART of me. I cannot erase my past. It has enabled me to grow and learn and be ME. I LIKE the me I am now. The me I was was a PUDDLE. I NEVER want to be a puddle again.

Why do you say this like it's a crushing end all thing? It's just a little bit of what makes me, me.

I wouldn't wish what I went through on ANYONE, yet I'm OKAY for it now.

A viper is still a viper, no matter how much you want it to be a kitten.

Then show me..If you have slept w/ someone before you were married, you were never really purely(totally) your husband's right? I mean, those previous men stayed w/ you forever even though you had dedicated your future to your husband? Did you wear a white wedding dress? Do see where I'm going. Most of the BS on here don't even think about these things because they were abused.(like a dog that has rocks thrown at it) They hate rocks! They fear rocks! You see, if you and your husband were not pure, you never really could be 100% absolute. Those memories of "others" stay w/ you even if it was PRE-marriage. That is why the bible forbids pre-marital sex. Do you see that?

I've seen it for a LONG time Dude. I KNOW why I was wrong to have sex before marriage. I realized that a long time ago.

Every single person I was ever with before my husband was a complete and total waste of time and energy.

[censored]. I could've been learning Chinese or something.

I tell my kids this every time we have "the talk."

I also KNOW why God set down The Rules in the first place and NONE of it has anything to do with Him and everything to do with not hurting ourselves and each other.

But what in the name of little green apples has that got to do with any of this?

Why on this thread?

I know.

I'm obtuse.

Cobra...DUDE

Apparently you don't remember the drinkin' Dude. That would be cottonmouth.

Let go of the absolutism. It is a chain, dragging these betrayed people down. "Damn it we were married" "How could he/she do this?" We all know what went on before we were married so lets drop the act. We all have sinned against our marriages and ourselves by having pre-marital sex. You know it and I know it. Its such a relief to recognize it. The wayward was just more OVERT in sinning against the marriage. Do you see that? Is this plausible? DUDE

Okay. Now I get it.

But the marriage ceremony says from then on you put no others before the spouse.

So you're saying because BEFORE that someone did something the whole dealeo is null?

I'm not buyin'.

Both knew what they were gettin' into and what was expected.

Listen: What I'm saying is you both made an "agreement", but your marriage was impure from the very beginning? Do you see that? DUDE

No. The MARRIAGE is "pure" from the moment the minister says, "I now pronounce you man and wife." There is no adultery at that point. Your comparing apples to oranges. Premarital sex IS wrong but has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the "vows" that a couple makes to each other to let no one come before the other.

Vows are synonymous w/ agreement which is what I said. I think Delean will agree that those prior relationships were sins against her FUTURE marriage. They just are, not same as adultery but they damage the mind and spirit in a similar way. I'm sure the betrayed on here will disgree, but its true. DUDE

"Dude -- You might want to reconsider the position you're standing on. The reason COMMON LAW was recognized was because men were trying to BAIL on long term relationships by standing on the position that it WASN'T a MARRIAGE. The courts decided to protect the women who had endured these lengthy relationships without property rights."

Exactly, and not to mention the children born would have no rescource for CS if their Common Law dad were to decide to bail out on their responsibilities.

Now I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one, DUDE. I had numerous relationships before marriage, and I don't view them as sins against my present marriage. If that were the case, how would you argue:
1. Someone who decides never to marry, either by choice or because they just never meet the right person? Are all of their other relationships sins against a hypothetical that never happened?
2. A person who marries a dirtbag the first time around. The dirtbag divorces them, and the person finds a good husband/wife the second time around. Was the first marriage a sin against the current one?
My kids just the other day asked me if I had had any boyfriends before daddy. I said yes. They asked me their names, and I rattled them off. My son was quite happy to continue to quiz and discover that I CHOSE my H after proverbially walking through the whole store first. Had I just walked up and picked one guy and stuck with that, he would have been nervous because I didn't have any other reference points.
So I don't see my previous relationships as sins. Sorry. Well, previous relationships with someone married to someone else would be sins, but except for that.

AND ALL OTHER BENEFITS ASSOCIATED w/ BEING "MARRIED" ARE GRANTED. Wow, we all agree, common law marriage is MARRIAGE acknowledged by the state. I care not WHY the original statute exists, the fact that it exist EQUATES it to those marriage via minister and or Justice of the Peace..DUDE

Pre-marital sex is a sin against your future marriage, yourself, AND GOD, even if its your future husband you are doing it with? You know this right? Where are all the bible thumpers when you need them? DUDE

Isn't this entire argument sort of obsolete, since Nexus (that is the OP, isn't it? I've lost track!) already said that he isn't in a common law state? What difference does it make if he would be considered legally married if he lived in Texas or NZ if he doesn't live in any of those places?

Its the principle if some on here JUDGE/DEEM someone newbie unwarranting of help because they used a justice of the peace instead of a minister(church) and/or grandfathered in to marriage via common law statutes. THAT IS TOTAL BS. PLan A and or B would work for this guys just like any BH on here. "Oh, you aren't married? SOL! I'm off this thread!" What pompus attitudes. DUDE

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." (or in this case, the man.)

Et tu brute!

The skanks who think its ok to screw like bunnies, then get married to a spouse who did the same, then get betrayed and go, "but hey, all those other people we agreed we were done with once we were married??!" yeah, thats gonna happen after he has slept w/ THIRTY women, then all the sudden he's gonna stick to one, FOR LIFE??! Yeah, not happening..DUDE

I think it may just be hopeless to get this thread back on track. Who someone did or did not sleep with before M has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's problem. He's already admitted that his state doesn't view them as legally married because there is no common-law marriage where he lives. That's all I was pointing out. How is discussing pre-marital relations of current BS's going to help him with his problem?

ITs cool..I love my betrayed peeps on here. They are absolutely predictable.

Still not seeing the similarity. Lemonman was also logical.

tl

Oh, I make up for that w/ this large finger I have that I break out every once in a while for just the right deserving people..DUDE

Yes you are.

edit

So you're still a wayward, at least you admit it.

You eat a full box of TrollSnax�?

The wayward retort is what the betrayed feels is the worst possible insult. Its worse than calling them a loser, or a skank, or a scumbad. Calling them a wayward gives the betrayed a form of redemption. It lifts the betrayed up. This is a symptom of having been betrayed. They hate and are disgusted by anyone w/ even remote wayward tendencies. Its fasinating that a ws has hurt someone so bad they see fire when they see waywardness all around them. Its constant triggers. Its living in hell..I'm so glad I went wayward enough to alleviate that crap. That is a chain of hate w/ no sympathy for a wayward I can't have in my life. DUDE

Let's get back on topic and stop with the personal insults.

so how many people here would of still married their spouse if they cheated on them while dating, engaged,or living together? Why or why not? Just because there is a court paper saying your not married does not mean it is nt cheating and its still betrayal!!!!Church and state are seperated by law.So if you get married by the justice of the peace or you get married at a church it still takes a acommitment by both to make a relationship work married or not. So when your spouse or companion cheats its still cheating and its still hurts Married or not!!!!!!

Would I have still married my H if he had cheated on me while we were dating? No. I found out a week after our wedding that my H still had very strong feelings for his ex-girlfriend. I endured 10 years of having every aspect of my M and family affected by these feelings. If I had known about it before I married him, I never would have done it. I would have gladly saved myself all of that heartache.

Yes, church and state are separate, and in the eyes of the law, there is no difference between being married by a justice of the peace or in a church. However, there is a difference between being married (civilly or religiously) and not being married at all. The OP wasn't married at all. In his state, no legal relationship existed between him and his girlfriend. Sure, it still hurts to get cheated on, whether you are married or not, but the MB principles are designed to save marriages, and since this poster wasn't married, they may not work.

cheating is cheating when they are not married

adultery is also cheating but becomes adultery when there is a marriage

By the way, Pepperband, your dancing turkey is making me hungry. Come on Thanksgiving!

The problem i have is when someone says you were not married so it was nt cheating the companion owes your nothing free to do with what they want.I disagree comittment to someone is like a promise. If a married couple here in the great USA goes on a trip or moves to a country that does nt reconise USA law in regards to marriage and that person has a affair is it still cheating? I believe it is cheating because they were committed to the other person. To me a commitment to some one just as or more important than a pieace of paper that you may or may not follow

Neither the X or I had very many intimate relationships - I was her first, she was my second. If she had cheated on me prior to marriage, I would not have married her. Way too many red flags with the history of divorce in her family. If I knew then what I know now, I'm not sure if I would have married her. Her suddenly walking away from a 10 year marriage and family to me shows a low commitment and respect for the depth that a commitment to marriage entails.

The fault in your logic, dsd, is that you are assuming there is some sort of commitment that was made between the two people. But what was that commitment in a living together situation? There really is no way to know. All I know is that they committed to living together. But, for how long and what were the terms of that commitment?

If they agreed to be in a mutually exclusive relationship for the duration in which they chose to live together, then yes, it is cheating, but as Pepperband stated, it is cheating, not adultery.

This was the most common dictionary definition of adultery that I was able to find:
NOUN:
pl. a�dul�ter�ies
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.

In this case, there was no lawful spouse, therefore there was no adultery. There may have been cheating, depending on the terms of the living together relationship, but there wasn't adultery.

Either way it is a pretty crappy way to treat someone (cheating or adultery).

I dont think this guy would be here if his companion stated to him I will live with you and be committed and use your income untill I deside I dont want too and not tell you anything any different. But dont be hurt because I done it my way without discuusing it with you and your feeling or thoughts dont matter!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think anyone here is trying to minimize his pain. I think people are just pointing out that MB principles may not be terribly effective in this situation, since there was no marriage. I never said there wasn't a commitment, but there may not have been a lifelong commitment, as there would have been in a marriage.

When living together, it's fornication, and cheating on your fornication partner is well...fornication and that fornication is only considered cheating when there is an agreement to be exclusive fornication partners.

It's only adultery when one partner or both is married.

What has been left out is was there some sort of symbol of agreement between the two fornication partners?

Writer not meaning any disrepect to you or anyone else but You and your H had that life long commitment their would have been in a marriage and there was still cheating,lies and what not.It comes done to the morals of the person marriage or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One things is for certain.

The OP isn't an OP at all.

They aren't really in the wrong here (unless they happen to be married themselves <psu...I see you>)

He/she is merely unwanted competition.

Mr. W

p.s.- I've been cheated upon and ceremoniously dumped by a long-term girlfriend for another guy but such "pain" was incomparable to my wife's adultery. To me, it's an accepted risk you when you put yourself out there in the dating world. It's part of the bargain that EITHER of you can rightly leave at any moment. Dating-at-will relationship. Cheating sucks...but few of us have ever escaped either being cheated upon and/or cheating when dating. Again, an assumed risk. In marriage (religious or otherwise), it's NOT supposed to be.

I don't think anything is going to be effective. Didn't she MARRY this other guy? If so, he needs to respect her marriage and leave her be.

Can I repeat this for you: The BETRAYED can only color inside the lines FOREVER! There is no grey area anymore. How can there be? When did flirting cross the line to an EA? IDK They MUST have clearly defined lines(Especially for Marriage) It is a symptom of BETRAYAL. Its a defense mechanism. Its that simple. They were probably not so adimant about common law marriage in their "previous life". They probably even have(had) relatives who were common law married. But the BETRAYED HAS TO CALL THEM A "GIRLFRIEND". They have to live by law now in place of judgement because their WS lost all judgement so they no longer can "TRUST IT". DUDE

You all might care to take a look at my post on Mr W's Absolutely thread. I am astonished to find that I agree with Dude after all.

Heavens to betsy. What a thread.

So when dating think nothing of someone sleeping or what ever behind your back because it part of the GAME. i dont think so If i was dating some one for a while and they are screwing some one else I want to know committed or not. Thats like a girl giving a guy a BJ on a lunch date and then you kissing her at night after a coffee date

edit

DUDE with you on that

Dude, what part of the above is confusing you here? Nexus admits they are 2 single people. He states he does not live in a common law state and that his girlfriend was free to walk whenever she wanted. Where is the gray area here? You've been arguing this common-law thing for how long now? Even Nexus admits it doesn't apply to him. You don't even believe the OP knows his own situation better than you do?

Stay w/ me my friend..Our coalition is growing. We are healing. Join us.

I am Super Man...DUDE

Its common sense. They were married. They just didn't pay the $15 and declare it to the JOP. I'm sure their family counted them as married for NINE YEARS!! That aint a boyfriend/girlfriend. A ring on it(as the difference here) doesn't mean much or this forum wouldn't exist and be so heavily populated..DUDE

I give up! Nexus didn't consider himself married. The state he lives in didn't consider him married. But, Dude considers him married, so therefore, he is. A higher power has spoken.

DUDE their most be two super men because my son is in the army airborne div. and thats what he refers to himself as

He is a brave, courageous man for being inlisted and defending our rights and freedoms. You tell him DUDE says, "WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZUUUUUUUUUUUUPPPPPPPPPPPP??!!"

Let me make it easier for you...He is hurting just as badly as ANY BH on here who's ww ran off?! Can we at least agree on that? DUDE

He dismisses me worrying about him. He tells me he will be ok refering to super man, I said to him still becarefull because even superman gets hurt. THANK DUDE

Oh, I totally agreed on that many, many posts ago. The ending of a 9-year relationship would be very painful. I was only questioning if MB principles could honestly help in this situation, since they are geared specifically towards recovering Marriages.

Why do you think plan A and B would not apply to him? Granted plan D might be fruitless? hehe DUDE

Dude --

Just wondering if you can tell me whether or not I'm married.
I've had this boyfriend for 4 years, and he lives with me.

Am I married?????

I'm gonna be kinda bummed if I am -- cuz I didn't get any good wedding presents....

why could nt MB principles work in recovering a committed long term relationship if one uses it to gain the other person back and then the two work ithe principles together. whats the difference in a long term relationjship and marriage. A piece of paper, that means nothing if your not committed for a life time like a long term relationship is for many. It still takes the same commitment of honesty, loyalty,companionship,domestic support, finances and so on or does committment only mean something on paper.

Answer these five questions:

1) Are you planning on getting married(just haven't yet)

2) Do you feel committed the same as a marriage partner? ie if you break up it would feel like a divorce?

3) Do you ever call each other spouse/husband/wife?

4) Do you share checking accounts, credit card accounts, etc?

5) Would your parents and/or his parents consider you married?

Unfortunately, the 'OP' in this story is actually a MM. So there is definitely some 'wrong' here.

eh....don't worry about it.

I KNOW I'm not married....

Its a RENTAL! hehe

Ok, it seems I've set off quite the s*** storm here, so here's how I view it:

- We told each other almost every day that we would be together until death (including up until a week before she left)
- Both our families considered us permanently together
- I was called "uncle" by her niece
- The in laws consider me part of their family even still and have supported me during all of this
- We had a business together and our finances were co-mingled
- We spent almost 24 hours a day together for 9 nine years
- All of our friends thought we would be together forever and would comment about how we were "the perfect couple"
- We shared almost every recreational activity and interest together (how many married couples can say that)
- We made every decision about our lives jointly
- We held hands everywhere we went until the day before she left (how many married couples here can say that)
- We took care of each other in sickness and health

So I ask you, did the lack of a piece of paper from the county mean that our relationship didn't have the same meaning as marriage?

Anyway, she came and picked up the last of things yesterday while I was gone. She said she wasn't coming back, but she loved me and couldn't even bare to here my voice (she arranged to pickup her things via text message). It's all so bizarre, I just can't fathom what kind of reality she's living in where you love someone so much just hearing their voice causes so much pain, but you still won't try and work things out. "WW" even snapped at her own niece on the phone when her niece told her she didn't approve of what she was doing. When I heard about that I cried, she used to be so close to her and to be cruel to a child! I just can't imagine her acting this way.

So it's on to "Plan B". I do understand what people are saying that there's no "Plan D" here, which makes the principals somewhat less effective, but I still think "Plan B" might be workable. Everyone including my therapist says she's be knocking on our door in three months or so.

Having some space from her and reading "Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders" I've decided that she's a pretty extreme E.F.P. and job stress, alcohol, my behavior toward her and the influence of this creep caused this 180 degree freak out while I was gone. If she decides to come back it will be hard to address her E.F.P. and victim mentality thinking.

edit

"- The in laws consider me part of their family even still and have supported me during all of this"

Me thinks I predicted this response...Lord I'm smart and totally DEFOGGED...I LOVE IT!! It feels SO GOOD!! DUDE

Thanks Dude. If she does come back it's going to take some serious therapy for her. I was thinking about why this really rather sudden change happened. Things were not too bad between us before I left for my trip. Well, my current working theory is that she has a pretty severe victim mentality in life. For example if she overdrafts her bank account it's always the banks fault. My guess is she met this guy and he managed to turn whatever unhappiness she had into being my fault and that she was the victim. There was a kernel of truth there as I didn't always treat her nicely, but now I think it's blown way out of proportion and she uses my controlling and critical behavior toward her to justify what she is doing.

nexus,

Let me put this to you as bluntly as I know so that this silly conversation that Dude and others have stirred up ends. You stated In this country the answer is YES! so quit defending the indefensible. Try filling for support. Try going to the hospital and making life and death decisions that only her family can make. Try filing jointly on your income tax. Try just spliting everything down the middle WITHOUT details of who bought what.

You are NOT married and you have never taken the trouble to be married so why are you NOW claiming you are married? It is just convenient to garner sympathy.

You asked can plan B effective in your situation. My best guess is yes it can be. However, your description of her and your relationship would provide ample justification in her victim mind to continue what she is doing.

If she is gone how are you two working together and addressing the issue of your comingled finances? How are you going to keep OM from using her to grab or at least access the comingled finances? How entangled are you with regard to these things?

You need to seek legal advice very soon. She doesn't seem stable and he seems pretty scuzzy.

Please think about this.

JL

Dude,

fyi...JL hasn't been a bh or a wh so you're gonna have to dig deeper into your foggy wayward thinking - reality twisting - insult box for him.

nexus...Plan B may or may not work to get your relationship back (just as it may or may not work for anyone) but it will take YOU down the road to personal recovery. I'd still send her a plan b letter so she'll know there IS a road back to you that may remain open for awhile and the conditions precedent for her to take that road.

Mr. Wondering

There have been some very silly contributions to this thread. My own about disco music are some. However, the discussion about whether Dr Harley's strategies can be applied to living together arrangements is not a "silly conversation".

At the heart of the matter is not confusion over whether nexus is legally married - even he knows that he is not! - but over whether the "piece of paper" makes any difference when it comes to using Harley advice to recover the relationship. That major issue is not "silly".

I asked you way back what you think her, "I need to be a priority" comment was about. Because of the plethora of Dudeisms, I couldn't see that there was an answer.

Did she want the paper that you knew of? Is there something to that comment?

I really, really would have LOVED for you two to have been okay without the paper if you didn't deem it important...but maybe it was important TO HER.

And dear JL is entriely correct...IN THIS COUNTRY, it wouldn't have mattered a fig if she was on a vetilator and dying what you would've wished for her UNLESS THERE WAS A BIT OF PAPER deeming you husband or power or attorney or such. Bits of paper can be very important - and there is a certain amount of safety knowing that my loved one has my back like that. Could it be possible she needed that safety and you didn't know it?

Another thought...sometimes pieces of paper make all the difference. Try claiming ownership of a piece of property without a properly executed deed filed with the county. You may have "rented" it for YEARS, treated it as your own, told people you owned it, fixed it up, replaced the roof, repaired the foundation, built extensions upon it, etc., however, in the end you are just a renter absent that little piece of paper (deed). It doesn't mean you don't or can't care about the "property" and be hurt when you get removed from the "property". It's just a legal fact that sometimes/often makes all the difference.

As far as MB principles working in non-marital situations, I think they'll work and may likely be more successful than many other plans out there, however, they won't be as successful as when used by married couple (common law or otherwise) considering the parties involved and the lack of PRIOR LEGAL commitment.

The weiner-davis 180 plans may work as well and the advice therein to start dating others (in an attempt to seemingly be moving on and attract back the gone astray partner) isn't inter-woven with adultery issues as when an actually married BS considers or tries to implement it.

Perhaps Dr. Harley's letter "Living together before marriage" in the Q & A section of the website kinda covers how to and what happens when implementing MB stuff in "living together" scenarios (discouragingly offering the plans to such couples but offering them nonetheless).

LIVING TOGETHER BEFORE MARRIAGE

Mr. Wondering

What I am asking is if the piece of paper mightve been more important TO HER than Nexus thought it was.

I, obviously, can't answer that (and wasn't trying to), however, I can guess that it probably WASN'T until she met someone else. Wouldn't that be the typical wayward girlfriend history rewrite?

W

I know MrDubya. I was directing the ? at Nexus hoping he'll come on and clarify...but you are entirely correct. It prolly IS moot considering a waynerd's capacity for fiction.

I'm guessing the piece of paper may have been important at some level for her, as is always the case in these situations I wasn't paying attention to her EN very well. However I'll bet Dealan-de is right that it became way more important after she left. Of course with her "marriage" to the OM they don't seem to have filed the papers so I guess you can draw some sort of conclusion from that.

Anyway, Plan B letter sent (via email unfortunately since I don't have her complete address). Thinking back I was probably way to easy on her during Plan A, mostly because one of the stated reasons she gave for leaving was that I was too controling. I think being more aggressive against OM and pointing out to WW how wrong what she is doing is is probably more effective.

I can't decide if Plan B has a chance with her. On one hand without me the "perpetrator" as a focus between them they will probably just turn their own victim thinking against each other pretty soon. However on the other hand she may stay mired in resentment for years. She has the ability to focus on being wronged for a long time.

If Plan B does work it can't be unconditional, she has to address the victim mentality that lead to this and has been a drag on our life.

Friends are already trying to set me up on dates, which is flattering, but I'm not sure how to proceed on that yet? Hey I'm not married right ... ha, ha ... uggg.

> I'm not sure how to proceed on that yet

Personally, I think you need time to process and heal and decide what your lifes goals should be.

>victim mentality

From experience, some people can only live with themselves and their choices if they stay immersed in this way of thinking.

For what it's worth, my then-boyfriend did not "put a ring on it" for quite some time, and eventually I decided to "have an affair." Yes, at the time, we were living together, joint accounts, traveling everywhere together, family holidays, etc.
We dated for eight years.
At some point, the love banks were depleted and we didn't notice and I decided to "divorce" him and start up with another guy.
Soon after, I decided that wasn't the route I wanted to take and me and the boyfriend reconciled.
We've been married 15 years. Although not all of them have been good ones.
Just sayin' that people can recover from situations like yours.

Hi imanotherone,

That sounds really positive! I would love to read your story. I'm guessing that I could by following the link in your signature but unfortunately it no longer works.

Could you check it please? Thanks.

TM

Hi TM,
Yeah, the link got busted after the crash. I'll have to get onto it. I'm certainly no poster child for recovery, but due to our own stubbornness we're still together. I guess the good side is that:
1. H doesn't drink, doesn't beat me, doesn't do illegal drugs.
2. H loves our children infinitely and is a very involved father.
3. H is gainfully employed.
4. H spends a lot of time working on the house.
5. H rarely raises his voice, even during arguments.
So, all things considered, it could be a lot worse.
Sorry for the T/J.

Thanks for sharing this iamtheone. How long were you apart from the boyfriend now H? Did you live with the other guy?

NExus,

Plan B may work. But, remember her ending the affair does not mean your relationship will work. Do Harley's ideas work in relationships as well as marriages. I would think so, which is why I thought the discussion had turned silly.

Kimmy, is correct that the lack of "that piece of paper" might have been the deal breaker for her. We don't know, and apparently neither do you. However, at some point you might find out. I would guess that it had something to do with things because she announced she had "married" the OM immediately and whether she did or did not my guess is that she made that announcement to hurt YOU. This suggests marriage was in her mind in one way or another.

I agree you should not go out, until you have sorted out a few things. YOu can certainly do so as you are not married and will not be participating in a divorce. But, you need to get yourself squared away or all these dates will be is them acting like your counselor and consoler. Neither are really good things for them, and actually not that good for you yet.

By the same token, you need to be talking to someone about this. A good counselor is a possibility.

I cannot help but think however, that you have "lucked" out, although I appreciate that you don't feel this way right now. Her behavior and what you have said does not indicate that she should be high on anyones list for a partner. She won't be unless she changes somethings.

You have not stated this, but I must ask. You decided to live with her for 9 years and yet you felt no need to marry her. I wonder if you have subconsciously realized that she is not the right one but really did not want to address this issue.

Most folks, not all I understand, want a good thing to be permenant, you apparently took no steps to achieve this and neither did she. Look deep, and see if you can understand your view and approach to this and what motivated it. It will be very helpful to you in the future if you can figure this out.

JL

PS: Mr. W is correct I have not cheated or been cheated upon (that I know of) in my marriage. I was cheated on while engaged to another woman and that ended the engagement. Now was it cheating? IN my mind yes, because of the lies involved, but was it an affair? Not technically as we were not married.

Actually she hid her "marriage" from everyone including her own family for almost 2 months. I'm not sure how long she was planning to keep it secret. I found out from the OM when we blew up at me over a text message using her phone. Her sister later talked to her and confirmed some sort of 2am "ceremony" involving a friend as a "minister". She still hasn't told me she is "married", remember she just can't bare to talk to me.

Yes, the more distance I have the more I realize that without addressing her issues she's probably not a good partner. She's a real catch 22 because on one hand she's smart, cute, charming, athletic and creative (and really good in bed I must say ), but on the other she has real trouble taking responsibility for anything in her life. It's sad really since she could be so much more if she didn't think she was the victim all the time.

NExus,

You know what they say about potential in the sports arena don't you? Potential gets the coach fired.

Potential is discussed in adults almost always because they are underperforming. I find it odd that she is such a blame person if she is athletic. Most people who are, eventually must face that their success or lack of it is up to them and their God given talents and blaming someone else doesn't help.

Please think about my other comments as well. You need to understand your own thinking and desires as well.

JL

Thanks for the good advice JL. She's athletic in individual outdoor type sports where you really have no one to blame but yourself. It's hard to blame the laws of physics right. I think if she had to suffer real consequences in other parts of her life she might stop blaming others. I think a huge part of our relationship was me shielding her from the consequences of her outcomes, usually at great personal cost to me. One thing that changed is I started doing that less in the last year which is one reason I think she left.

She always manages to find a way to slide by though, so she may never learn even if she ends up on her own. The OM sounds like the same type, so I'm guessing he's not going to be good for shielding her for long. Who knows though they may just keep sliding by together.

Yup,

They may keep sliding together, but as you know the odds don't favor that. This needs to be a growth opportunity for her, let her grow and then see she turns into. It is your best chance at a good outcome.

God Bless,

JL

To everyone. THE PAPER. Does having the paper mean you wont be cheated on ,used, taken for finaical ruins, be able to claim what is theirs is mine and what is mine is theirs,live happily ever after and so on and on? NO. Does not havig they THE PAPER mean that all of or some of the negitive wont happen to you? NO. It still comes down to the morals of the person at the time of commitment and what has changed in the morals of the person when they cheat. Nexus I feel for you and i believe that MB principals will work even if not married to those who commit to them. HOWEVER your girlfriend is now MARRIED and you need to back away so you dont become the OM. You are better than that!!!!! Even if she did come back at this time with your interference THE PAPER or not having the paperand or commitment must not mean much to her either way. It still comes down to morals of the person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nexus- I was not apart for very long--a week or so at the most. Although I did have a "false recovery" where I vascillated on my choice.
I'm pretty good at taking mental inventory, and the situation that looked so good at one time was not as awesome when more closely scruitinized. Plus, I was aware of the heady stuff that is a fresh love, new relationship. I knew that the heart flutter feeling was fleeting, and I had to think about where I wanted to be ten years from then, when the newness was a distant memory.
Lots of girls grow up thinking they'll find prince charming and live happily ever after. I knew that wasn't the case (at least for most of us).
So yeah, your girlfriend has to look around, see what was lost, what is being thrown away, and decide if the new relationship TRULY has the potential to be better.
BTW, I didn't even know it at the time, but I was EXTREMELY angry that we hadn't married sooner. I saw his lack of a proposal as a lack of respect and commitment, even though we shared so much. The legal part was important, at least subconsciously. Especially painful when we ever attended friends' weddings.

No, his ex-girlfriend is not married. She's dating a MM. She's an OW.

Page one third paragragh, whenI reread it it still tells me she is married to other man now!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So OM is a polygamist, OP is a stalker and wanting to be an OM.

And y'all thought I was screwed up.

Maybe you need to read beyond the first page:
Re: 9 year relationsship, WW married OM after 1 we

Um, no. No she isn't married legally and he is, so I am not an OM. Also, I'm in Plan B at this point so I'm hardly stalking her. As stated earlier even if she did want to come back I would have to take a long hard look. These marriage fetishist are getting old.

>marriage fetishist

ROTFLMAOPIMP!

Meh.

Protect yourself from her crazy - maybe you weren't drama enough for her so she went out and made some? Cos all this drama is on HER!

Thanks for the info imanotherone. Unfortunately I don't think she has such a clear head as you (getting "married" after 2 weeks is just totally crazy). As far as I can tell she really doesn't understand the infatuation period of the new relationship and really let her anger and resentment carry her along. Well I guess time will tell. Everyone I've talked to thinks about 2-3 months from now will be the turning point if there is one. I'm just taking it one day at a time at this point and trying not to let my anger at her lies take over.

Dude, my state (Ohio) stopped recognizing common-law years ago.

Nexus, I dont know if you have stated or not in your thread but does your ex girlfriend know that she is not legally married,and that her want to be husband is, just not to her?

I don't know, she hasn't spoken with me since I learned of her "marriage". She knows about his kids etc, so I would assume she knows his situation. I sort of wonder if in some way she knows the 2 week, 2am "wedding" was crazy and doesn't want to make it legal yet. I would guess if she and this guy make a go of it for awhile they will have a real wedding later after his divorce is final. However as we know from Harley and others the odds of this relationship succeeding are pretty slim. Her sister told me that she couldn't even stand talking to the guy on the phone because he was so annoying. My feeling is deep down this whole thing isn't really about the OM, but more about her victim thinking and running away from life's responsibilities in general.

Have the guy arrested for Bigamy.

> My feeling is deep down this whole thing isn't really about the OM, but more about her victim thinking and running away from life's responsibilities in general.

I think that's spot on.

I completely agree. I think a lot of A's are about this. Mine certainly was, most specifically the running away from life's responsibilities part. The OM had very little to do with it. Luckily, I figured out in time that running away doesn't work. Hopefully, nexus, your gf will figure it out too.

Unfortunately I think her irresponsibility was part of my attraction to her and I let her attitude toward responsibility rub off on me. I've got a lot of her mess to clean up and need to remember to take care of myself. So much of my energy over the last 9 years went to shielding her from consequences. If Plan B does work I need to be in a strong place not to just go back into the same mess if she hasn't changed. The first week of Plan B is so, so hard though. I so just want to pickup the phone. Any tips on staying strong?

Fascinating !



You did this for 9 years because it was working for you. Did you stop doing this "shielding" prior to her defection/betrayal?

Calling her is YOU positioning yourself as a shield between her and her consequences (again) .

Are you becoming aware of how you functioned in this 9 year relationship?

Were you raised in a Alcoholic home by any chance?

Good observation, your right about calling her just letting her off the hook again. Yes, I'm becoming aware that this was a enabling relationship. What did change recently was that I expected her to be responsible for contributing financially rather than just indulging her schemes. I think that was the biggest reason she left, she felt that I was being "oppressive".

No, I wasn't raised in an Alcoholic home by any stretch of the imagination, but I have always attracted the type that wants to be taken care of for some reason. Maybe it's low self esteem on my part or my dislike of dating.

Update to the craziness:

Well after implementing plan B for 2 weeks I went soft and contacted her after she sent me an email about some trivial business matter. I was sick in bed, alone and lost my resolve.

Anyway, she played the text message game again, but finally agreed to talk on the phone. I am kind of at the point I just want to say goodbye and be done with it. Well she blew off two times for a phone call, saying via email that she just couldn't talk to me, it was too hard.

She texted the other day about calling, saying that the thought of talking to me just hurts so, so much and she doesn't know why! Yet the thought of no contact hurts even more. Argg ... she totally hasn't even thought through what she's done and how she feels about me yet.

The topper was today when I Googled the OM's name and a mug shot comes up where he was arrested for DUI yesterday at 11 am! Real winner she picked there. I promptly informed her family. Anyway, maybe back to Plan B again and wait for this alcoholic mess to fall apart on it's own? I don't know part of me doesn't want her back anymore.

She said she would call last night and didn't. I called her and left a message then she turned off her phone. I can't tell if she's really having trouble dealing with her emotions or she's just playing games. If she's really have such pain at the mere thought of me then she must be having terrible cognitive dissonance. If that's the case I can't imagine her "marriage" to this creep is going to last much longer.

Anyway, I sent her another Plan B letter and deleted all her contact info from my email and phone. I can't let this "I'll call you crap continue".

You need to proceed with the Plan B. For your sake.

Agreed. However are you saying so I can detach and move on, or just so I don't go insane?

Yes.