Please feel free to add/delete. This is my opinion and the way I currently feel. I'm sure its fluid and will change over time. DUDE

1) You no longer hate and despise ANY PERCEIVED or ACTUAL wayward activity. You see it as a part of the risks of being married. You realize that it could happen to ANYONE, including yourself given the right circumstances. Acknowledging this fact allows you to visualize you as the WS.(or in my case, become one?) How would you repent? How could you make amends? How would you want to be viewed FOREVER by your family/friends. Would you deserve forgiveness?

2) You totally forgive your WS even if you are divorced. No more hate and resentment. You finally let it all go. This feels so good. Such a relief! If you can restore things w/ your (f)WS, then the forgiveness means even that much more.

3) You no longer think of the betrayal when you first wake up. You begin thinking of mundane problems. For me, some stocks I shouldn't have purchased that have tanked recently. You begin thinking about issues at work more when you are alone or other things completely removed from the betrayal/divorce/etc.

4) The hyper-sensitivity to adultery dicipates dramatically. You go to weddings and it no longer upsets you when you hear the couple confirm their vows. You understand that they are imperfect and at that time they truly believe they will both always be faithful. Reference to adultery on TV shows or movies no longer piss you off. Its life imitating art.

5) You come on the marriage builders and read some of the absolutist mentality of the betrayed and begin to see it for what it is that they have been scorned beyond anything imaginable to the non-betrayed. It is that deep of a wound. It hurts that bad that they see everying with a betrayed bias. When they get to the point of arguing about the validity of common law marriage, you know its bad. This is actually not a good thing. Its a chain that must be broken for true healing to occur. As you defog, you see all the sinful things that you have done against your marriage. The infidelity was just more overt and damaging to the marriage. When you get there and this chain breaks, it is the most liberating feeling I have ever felt in my entire life.

6) You finally say, "F it, sheet happens, no one is perfect, people change, I can only control ME!!"

DUDE

Well, I think the proverbial feces is going to hit the fan with this one.

1) Are you saying that in order to be defogged, that one has to come to some sort of acceptance of A? It happens, could happen to anyone, just learn to live with it and accept it? I'm not sure that's a great attitude, and I am a FWW. It's like saying, people will always kill other people. Murder is a fact of life. Might as well just accept it and move on. I think wayward activity should be hated and despised. It is wrong. It causes immeasurable hurt and pain. Just like murder is wrong. There are some absolutes in this world. Just because anyone, under the right circumstances (and Dr. Harley acknowledges this) could become a wayward, doesn't make it right or excusable.

2) and 3) Seem like pretty good indicators to me.

4) The way adultery is often glorified in movies and on TV will always bother me. So often, the media doesn't even attempt to portray the horrible consequences that inevitably accompany an A. As far as the wedding thing goes, I've never sat in a wedding ceremony and listened to the couple exchange their vows and thought "Yeah, right, that's what they say NOW."

5) I don't think the argument about common law marriage had anything to do with BS's biases. The poster himself admitted that he doesn't live in a common law state and that, where he lives, he has no legally-recognized relationship with his girlfriend.

6) I don't have anything to say about this one.

I am astonished to find myself agreeing with you quite a lot. You might care to pop into Mr W's Absolutely thread to see my thoughts on this.

I have a remaining problem, though. Dude, if you see adultery now as "part of the risks of being married", you know that you risk going through it again, and perhaps many times. How do you feel about that risk?

The idea frightens me. While I don't think I could ever be as badly hurt again because I am not naive about marriage, I don't WANT to go through this again. Are you stoical about this risk in your future relationships?

7. Waywards are dirtbags.

Pariah: So, does that include FW's? As in, once you've made a mistake and had an A, you are a dirtbag and will always be a dirtbag no matter what?

I hope I will always hate waywardness. I hate people who drink-drive. I hate people who knowingly hurt other people. I don't see this changing. I do understand that we are al capable of cheating. Dr H says we all are, so even though I don't ever believe I would cheat, I do acknowledge that in the right (or should that be wrong) circunstances, it could happen. That's why EP's apply to both W and BS's. If, however, I cheated now, knowing what I know, then in my opinion that would be unforgiveable.


I'm working on that.


It's no longer my first thought of the day. I'm now working on not thinking about it on those awful nights when I don't sleep well.


I'm sensitive to it and not always hyper-sensitive. The portrayal in films and TV as adultery being "normal" and romantic pisses me off no end.


Are you implying that BS's allow their rightful anger about the adultery in their lives to become less sympathetic to "real life" situations? I disagree with you on this one Dude. Being consumed by bitterness is not healthy but I see very few embittered BS's here. Most are inspirational to me. Overcoming incredible pain and trauma is difficult, especially in a society in which you are told to just "move on and get over it", and in which it is acceptable for marriages to have a shelf life and for a spouse to walk away to seek personal happiness elsewhere. I and many other BS's here are supportive of FWS's. If a WS comes here seeing the pain they have caused and with a determination to make amends, then I will be eager to help. I don't judge them as people, or condemn them as people but I do judge their past actions as abhorrent.


Yep, I say that. I also am much more careful about the people who I allow into mine and my family's lives. I CAN only control me but I can choose to be more discerning about my friends and the family I choose to surround myself with, and I suppose in saying that I am admitting to being more judgemental about people. So shoot me.

An affair isn't a mistake, it's a planned willful malicious act, it isn't like typing where your finger accidently hits a differnt key.

With that said, a former wayward is penantant and not proud of what the have done and is remorseful. With remorse comes forgiveness.

A dirtbag revels in their adultery and displays it as a trophy for all to see.

Thank you Dr. Dude.

DUDE, I agree with what you wrote...
And people WILL always kill other people. Doesn't make it right of course.

I think they are dustbags, at that point.

For me, once I get my handicap down to below scratch, I will be recovered. Right now, I am using the thoughts of the infidelity to control my swing plane. I an draw the ball by thinking of my wife cheating. If I need a violent hook, I add in her behaviors like dousing me with cold water in the shower or stealing our kids' tuition money to fund her affair.
I just need to get some good way to move the ball left to right, now.

I think you believe number one because it makes you feel better about yourself, Dude. IMO, it's number 2. Wrong is wrong, period and I belive it with all my heart about a fair number of evils in the world.

2-4 I totally agree with.


I belive number 5 was put in as a dig to those still hurting and you are actually rubbing their noses in their hurt for not being as "advanced" or whatever that you are.

And my fwh is NOT a dust or a dirtbag. He's done some really really horrible things to me and TO HIMSELF and he owns it. I love him so much and am so grateful for him...despite the person he was.

You seem to be confusing a mistake with an accident. A mistake is something that someone chose to do intentionally that was wrong, and they later regretted. An accident is something that happened, but was not chosen. Of course an A is not an accident, since it takes willful action on the part of the participants. But it can be a mistake - something that was done willfully at the time and later regretted.

We'll be the judge of that(re your husband), Dedelean.

DEDE was the PIG! Geesh! Dealan-de - Gaelic for butterfly or God's fire.

(giggle)

And no matter what he WAS, what he is now is a whole 'nother thing entirely...and YOU may get to judge, but ultimately it's MY decision.

So there. Humph!

(BTW: I'm grinning...I'm not being truly snarky)

Go to jail(step ZERO), do not collect $200. It will take him ten years to heal, at least. It is that bad. It is scarred him that much. Calling someone a wayward has become his greatest insult he can throw at someone. Its fairly obvious to me. **edit**

Dude, his ex had him SHOT and they left him bleeding in the road.

Serious sheet? That doesn't even BEGIN to cover it.

You are welcome **edit**..DUDE

Well, then do we dismiss him as "unrecoverable"? Is he gone forever? Do I just ignore his pissed off attitude. IDK I'm asking how to respond to him?

I was a wayward so I'm sure I'm on his "hit list". DUDE

I am overly sensitive right now because of recent events in my situation. So perhaps this question is out of line. But why do waywards and former waywards refer to an A as a mistake? A mistake occurs when you go to the store and buy the wrong kind of bread or when you are doing a math problem incorrectly. An A is nothing like a mistake. It is a decision that comes from total disregard of purported loeved ones and total self-centeredness.

Hmmmmm, guess I am back in the BS fog.

AM