RP

Its a long read but worth it on bounderies.
It has taken a long time for it to sink into me.
I have a lot of good bounderies but am poor to enforce them.

Be true to your self.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1908971&page=4

Hope this helps. You can only fix yourself.

Nesre

It wouldn't surprise me if MT is an alcoholic. This would explain her lack of impulse control and lack of empathy. She drinks to blot out life and exhibits a classic personality change when she does. Alcohol keeps a person chained to their own selfish desires. We call it self will run riot and MT has certainly demonstrated that.

That being said, rprynne, the issue really lies with you. She has shown you that she is not willing to change and will never protect you in a safe marriage. She has never been willing to do those things. What she is willing to do is say and do whatever is necessary to keep you taking care of her. Now I understand why she has hung onto you so despite the fact that she doesn't love you. She NEEDS YOU. Alcoholics always have to have a fall back guy to take care of them. That is what you are. You are a RESOURCE, not a husband.

This is why Dr Harley does not advocate Plan A with an alcoholic. It is because the emotions of an alcoholic are so warped that they cannot become emotionally intimate with another human being. Other people are simply viewed as resources for exploitation. So plan A will not acheive emotional intimacy but a new opportunity to exploit you.

So, instead of wasting time trying to decide if MT is a "bad person" or not, I would be asking myself if this is the marriage I want. I think, rprynne, your answer is yes, evidenced by the fact that you have chosen to live like this FOR YEARS. When I see someone who has the same problems year after year I know I am talking to someone who LIKES the status quo. People who really want change.............change.

And rprynne, many alcoholics rarely get drunk. Many just drink on a regular basis to blot out life. It sounds like that is what MT does. She also exhibits the classic personality change while under the influence.

It is always tempting to ignore facts that are hard to face. I have done it myself. But the longer you put off learning about alcoholic behavior and traits, and become an expert on alcohol addiction and the longer you deny she has an alcohol addiction problem, the longer you will be unable to improve your marriage in any way. And the longer you will be unable to leave the bad marriage that you cannot improve.

Can you accept her cheating, her selfishness and her other bad behaviors for say.....the next year? How bout the next 5 years? Or the next 10 years?

I would not be able to put up with a spouse like that for even 6 months more. I would be outa there. I would value myself more than that.

I will dig it out later, but Dr Harley, who used to run alcohol treatment centers, noticed something that most alcoholics have discovered. And that is that many are divorced AFTER they sober up.

Their spouses really LIKED keeping them sick and dependent on them. [hence the endless enabling and excuses for their behavior] Alcoholics are really very dependent on their spouses because the spouse is the only ADULT in the relationship. When the alcoholic sobers up, the spouse RESENTS having to share control with another adult and divorces the alcoholic.

I just read his comments on this in his book Defending Traditional Marriage; I will try and find it later today.

But when I see someone who stays in such an abusive marriage year after year, I know I am talking to someone who does not really want change.

Mel, those two posts of yours have hit the nail right on the head.

I don't know enough about alcohol problems to determine if alcohol is the issue here, but it definitely appears that there is dependency and enabling going on and the reluctance to change the dynamic suggests that both mr and mrs rp gain something from maintaining the status quo.

We all seem to be seeing a picture here rp, and you are the painter so I'm puzzled as to why you cannot see it?

I was going to write a post, but instead I decided to copy one that says exactly what I wanted to express:

It does. It has.

How do I put this? I'm not so naive as to say something like "things are making progress in our marriage even though she keeps making contact with OM." I know that doesn't work. But I'm also not willing to agree with those who say nothing has changed (or she has made no changes) because she broke no contact.

I'll do the research on the alcoholism. I think it's crazy to think I fear finding that out. I'm not an expert on it because my WW has met with 3 separate Dr's (including Harley) where her drinking was discussed and not one of them has said "Ah hah, there's the issue."


I think your wrong about what I want. I haven't chosen to live like this for years. I've either been duped for years by a paticulary manipulative person, or I'm married to a person who keeps failing at trying to do the right things. However, I agree with your first part. I've wasted too much time trying to figure it out. There just comes a point where it doesn't matter which one it is.

Thanks all for your support.

Get her the book Healing the Shame That Binds You (get someone else to give it to her). I think she'll recognize herself in there - using destructive tools to sabotage herself rather than see or admit her faults. Very powerful stuff. Or read it yourself, so you can see the patterns and address them.

deleted

Thanks for the comments 2long, I appreciate it.

2Long, is it an "insult" to point out the obvious? I don't think so. It might hurt and I can understand how it might hit a sore spot with you; I don't think "fairness" has relevance, though. What is relevant is acceptance of reality. And the truth is that when someone doesn't change; when they have the same problem year after year after year, their inaction reflects the truth of the situation: that they don't truly want change. Their actions [or lack thereof in this case] bely their words. You can say you want change, but when nothing ever changes, the lack of action demonstrates the truth. I can "say" I want to go to Omaha, but if I never bother to get in the car and go there, how credible am I when I express this wish?


I agree that fear is likely the driving paralyzer. Some let it control them, others don't. But it is always a choice. When we allow fear to dictate our decisions, we are making a choice to not change. We are no longer victims, but volunteers. Everyone here is afraid to make change, 2Long. But some allow that fear to paralyze them into inaction and some don't. The people who truly want change don't let their fear stop them, those who don't want change, use it as an excuse to maintain the status quo.


And this demonstrates my point about someone who doesn't really want change. Your situation is sad, but saying that recovery will take a long time is not an excuse to NEVER even begin recovery. A 10 year Plan A is not "recovery," 2Long, it is conflict avoidance.

2Long, I want to clarify that you don't have to justify yourself to anyone here. If you want to live like this, that is your prerogative and your choice. But please don't ask others to believe that this is anything more than accepting the status quo or that you really want "change." I don't buy that for a minute. But, it is your life, not mine.

2Long, just so you know, a very important principle of Marriage Builders is Plan B. It comes after Plan A. Plan A was not meant to be a way of life for conflict avoiders, but a very short term plan that seque into Plan B. For men, it is 6 months; women 3-4 weeks. Dr. Harley also wrote a compelling article titled "When to Call it Quits" that you might find helpful. It discusses a Marriage Builders approach about what to do when one partner will not engage in the marriage: When to Call It Quits - Part 1

No, it wouldn't be. But it's not "the obvious", just your shallow interpretation/analysis of the story.


More relevant is recognition of reality. I don't think you have it here. You certainly should acknowledge that you may not, and respond 2 rprynne accordingly.


Yes, our actions, or inactions, DO reflect what's really going on, but it's quite presumptuous for someone 2 claim that they know what the whole truth is.


I believe that this is incorrect. I think newbie posts here belie the fact that even those who appear unable 2 instigate change do nevertheless want change. Why would they post, otherwise?


There's still a big "reader's interpretation" step involved in here.


Not a strong metaphor. I want 2 go 2 Mars, but I don't think most people would consider me lacking in credibility if I die before ever going through astronaut training.


I agree, but recognize that, in my case certainly and possibly rprynne's (and many others') as well, fear doesn't work as a paralyzer for long. I haven't been paralyzed for years now. I'm enjoying myself quite famously, in fact.


I'm going 2 try a different approach 2 characterizing what I mean when I say there is no fear, even though the "change" expected by the observers hasn't happened. Here are the lyrics of a song by Peter Gabriel, called "Darkness."

"I'm scared of swimming in the sea
Dark shapes moving under me
Every fear I swallow makes me small
Inconsequential things occur
Alarms are triggered
Memories stir

It's not the way it has to be

I'm afraid of what I do not know
I hate being undermined
I'm afraid I can be devil man
And I'm scared to be divine
Don't mess with me my fuse is short
Beneath this skin these fragments caught

When I allow it to be
There's no control over me
I have my fears
But they do not have me

Walking through the undergrowth, to the house in the woods
The deeper I go, the darker it gets
I peer through the window
Knock at the door
And the monster I was
So afraid of
Lies curled up on the floor
Is curled up on the floor just like a baby boy

I cry until I laugh

I'm afraid of being mothered
With my balls shut in the pen
I'm afraid of loving women
And I'm scared of loving men
Flashbacks coming in every night
Don't tell me everything's alright

When I allow it to be
It has no control over me
I own my fear
So it doesn't own me

Walking through the undergrowth, to the house in the woods
The deeper I go, the darker it gets
I peer through the window
Knock at the door
And the monster I was
So afraid of
Lies curled up on the floor
Is curled up on the floor just like a baby boy

I cry until I laugh"

In this case, the scary house in the woods metaphor, and what he does with facing it and recognizing the baselessness of his fears is more akin 2 what I experienced a few years ago when I realized the fear of change had waned, such that I could evaluate my si2ation without fear as a controlling factor and choose my fu2re accordingly. And I think this happens 2 most everyone within a few years of d-day, even if their WS had a VLTA.


You're so far out of lock on my sitch now that it's ridiculous. Where did you get "never?" Where did you get 10 years? Heck, where did you get plan A, even?


No, it's your imaginary construct. Rprynne, rest assured that what Mel just described bears no resemblance 2 my life, whatsoever.

As you are well aware, I know all this.


As you may have forgotten, SH advised NOT going 2 plan B.


I've read that, but not recently. Will check it out again and maybe get back 2 you with my thoughts.

-ol' 2long

Thought of another point.

After the first 2ple of years post d-day, it's no longer fear of losing the WS or the status quo so much as it's the difficulty of severing the attachment. Particularly in cases of long-term marriages.

I distinctly recall wishing my W would just leave. And later, that she'd just left on d-day.

-ol' 2long

Oh, THAT!

Dr Harley never answered my question on that thread about ul a few months back. The whole thread is probably gone now, since the boards crashed.

-ol' 2long

Spoken by someone who is invested in the status quo, I might point out.


I am not talking about the average newbie, I am talking about those that come here for years on end and talk alot about change, yet have the same problem in 2009 they had when they arrived in 2002, 2005, etc. They talk about change, but nothing ever changes.

It is much like watching a wayward who professes he is committing to the marriage when his actions do not back up his words. Or an alcoholic who swears off drinking but does nothing to ensure he quits. They are in denial. And so is someone who talks alot about change, but never does anything to effectively change.

His talk is cheap, as we so like to say on these forums.

I think its real easy to lose all objectivity about our own situations when we are a) emotionally driven, as we naturally would be about our own situations, and b) very fear driven.


I am cool with that. If you are enjoying your life living with a wife who still contacts her OM and are able to call that "recovery" then good for you. But if you are going to give advice to rprynne, he should know you have been in Plan A for YEARS and your wife is still in contact with her OM. She was in contact in 2002 when you arrived, and still was recently. That is your definition of recovery. It may not be his. And it sure is not Marriage Builders definition.

I don't know why Steve H told you not to go into Plan B at the time, [that is just hearsay anyway] but I do know staying in a marriage where the WW refuses to end contact with her lover is not something MB would advocate. Dr Harley even recommends Plan B when the spouse won't commit to the marriage as indicated in the article I posted.

I hope you do take the time to read his article When to Call it Quits. I think you and rprynne could both benefit greatly from it. And I don't think that is the one you wrote Dr Harley about. My recollection is that it was his Unconditional Love series.

2Long, let me ask you a sincere question. Would it bother you to see rprynne deal with repeat contacts with the OM for as many years as you have endured with your wife?

Interesting 2uestion, ac2ally.

I suppose it would matter how exactly he deals with the contact.

But I try not 2 let what others do bother me.

-ol' 2long

I may be a newbie, but shouldn't there NOT BE CONTACT OF ANY SORT with the AP???