I would wait till you get some indication that she is recommitting to the marriage before bringing up counseling. She's not ready for it yet, hasn't realized that she is staying with you and has no real reason to fix the marriage yet.

IC for you and maybe for her might be worth the effort but marriage counseling needs to be focused on fixing the marriage and she isn't ready to do that yet. Maybe a time or two split 50/50 with the Harleys, but I wouldn't waste a lot of time worrying about counseling yet.

She might need to see her doctor to check into antidepressants if her mood stays too low for very long. My wife got the script but never used the things.

PH, you should also keep in mind that as she enjoys herself more and more with you, her moods will begin to improve a lot. She is mourning (yeah, that sucks, I know...) but as she begins to re-engage you in the relationship, a lot of that will fade rapidly.

Even when you do begin working on the relationship issues, always make the majority of your time together fun and upbeat. Spend much more time being together than you do fixing stuff. If every conversation is about the affair, she won't want to be together very much and frankly, neither will you. You didn't get here in a couple of weeks and you won't get to where you need to be in that long either. You've been running at full speed in opposite directions for probably years. It is going to take a while to get completely back together again, even if you run. So remember that it is a marathon and not a sprint or you'll burn out before you reach your goal.

Recovery takes two years or more. Examine progress over weeks instead of days and months instead of weeks. Look back at the six month mark and you'll be amazed at how far you've come. At some point you'll hit a place where things will go along smoothly for several days at a time and then there will be a blow up of some kind. Remember these words when that day comes so you will not be set back but merely see it as a speed bump on the road to recovery.

Some days you will spend a lot of time contemplating what might be different if you had let her go and gotten a divorce. Realize that this too is normal and that it will pass as well.

If you reach the point where both of you are meeting each others ENs and all Love Busters have been vanquished from your marriage, you will find that a lot of the problems that seemed so large in the beginning will seem so minor that they will actually take care of themselves. Many things you find extremely important today will hardly even be recalled at some point, if you are making real progress as a couple, working together as a couple and spending time together as a couple.

If you could spend the money it takes to attend the MB weekend and if you want to make the best possible investment in your marriage, that would be the thing to do. That one thing could do so much more than years of counseling. But leave that for later, again realizing that you need her to be fully engaged in the marriage before you can even try to work on the hard bits. Fix the easy stuff you don't need help with as fast as you can (your side of the deal here); make the marriage better than it ever was and then look into the MB weekend to make it awesome.

Good job, PH!

Mark

P_H,

""but she has admitted that circumstances caused the breakup, not a loss of feelings for the OM, so that takes time to heal.""

If I may, this is such total fogged out bull pucky. The CIRCUMSTANCES are that the OM is actually a low life scum bag that was trying to lure her into his web of brutality and control.

The loss of feelings is for an OM THAT WAS NEVER REAL.

The OM she has the feelings for is BAIT

Bait for the trap she was ready to enter.

She does not realize that you saved her life??

Of course all of the above would be a supreme lovebuster, but if she still keeps this 'CIRCUMSTANCES' defense, maybe you could slip that BAIT word in there. In a nice way.

CIRCUMSTANCES!!??? "WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING CIRCUMSTANCES!!"

IMHO

kirk

Thanks for all the encouragement and advice!

Not2, Yes I have blocked the number and also blocked the email address. Our home # is unlisted and she has promised it was never given to him.

Mark, I hear what you are saying about measuring the progress, even though the intensity of her depression appears to ease with each day, I know it is still very present in her mind.

I am going to plan a night out for us this weekend and next week we are going on a family trip out of state to visit extended family for the holiday, which will put us 100% together for several days.

I just want to keep things positive however I can. We do have some negatives to discuss, such as our financial situation, but I am hopeful getting her involved in that will help us find more ways to work together.

Instead of looking at finances as something negative, why not turn it into a positive? Sign up for Quicken Online (it's free) or Dave Ramsey's program, and sit down together and work out your plan for financial security. It is very empowering!

I'll vouch for the Dave Ramsey program.

Financial Peace University

We have run the series at our church a couple of times and will be doing it again in the near future. Among other benefits will be the ability to retake the course at a later date as a refresher without having to pay for the materials again.

Mark

ETA: As an example, of the 14 couples who took the course when my wife and I did, over $30K in unsecured debt was eliminated during the time we took the course by all of the couples combined. Nobody got a raise during that time either...

PatientHusband,

I know how you feel! Being "fixers" as we men are, it's really hard to accept that we have very little influence over "clearing the fog from WW's head". It does suck and it is not fair, but it is true.

You have NO DIRECT INFLUENCE at all. I learned this the hard way (pre-MB). Trying to reason, convince, counsel, advise, sweet-talk, morally-persuade, or guilt her does NO GOOD. Too much 'relationship talk' and being a begging-doormat actually pushes her to the OM. I made all the of these mistakes out of a desperate attempt to "make things right"...it DOESN'T WORK EVER!

The only productive influences you have are indirect ones--the carrot-and-stick of Plan A and by removing yourself from her support-system in Plan B.

I wish you well, but you are in for a long haul in even the best of circumstances. WWs are very, very difficult because they usually see their affair-partner as a REPLACEMENT rather than an add-on to their marriage...I'm so sorry.

Update - Need some advice.

We went on a 5 day trip out of town, me, my wife and the kids. It did us good to be together for all that time, away from our home environment. Although we were there to see family, we spent a lot of time at the hotel and shopping, basically just spending time together.

Even though it was not planned and an hour before would not have seemed possible, we found ourselves being intimate for the first time in months. To me it was spectacular. By the next morning, she said what happened may have happened too soon for her. She says she doesn't feel what we did (that night) was wrong, but I think she might have had a thought of him during the moment and that bothered her. She told me her emotions are still raw and she is still trying to get it all figured out. She did tell me the next day that she loved me and the look she always gave me was back.

I know the feelings she is having for the OM are gradually fading, she does not know what to do with them. She knows she doesn't see a future with him now but says there are still feelings there she doesn't know how to handle. This is still clouding her head and preventing her from fully giving 110% to rebuilding our relationship.

I feel we are on the threshold of getting over this, but we have to get over these lingering feelings she is having for the OM. I can't really find in SAA where Dr. Harley explains how to deal with this other than its part of the grief process. We are starting the third week since the "revelation" of who the OM really is. What do I need to be doing to help her through this? Do I ask her to read SAA at this point?

We can't afford the Harley's fees at this point. Should I recommend that she see the counselor she was seeing a month ago that told her at that time she could do no more to help? The counselor was pro-family/pro-marriage, but admitted that until a decision was made, she couldn't offer anything more.

Otherwise, I am still being the supportive husband and father. We haven't discussed relationship talk except for a couple of times just before leaving on this trip and obviously soon after our trist Thanksgiving night.

Find some NEW habits and rituals and things to do together that are yours and yours alone. Do things that make her feel like you're dating again. That's where the chemicals kick in, and she'll start to feel warm fuzzies for you instead of those she felt for him.

Shake things up so she looks forward to being with you and knows that it'll be good times.

Quoted For Truth (QFT). It keeps getting better, but my FWW clearly has lingering feelings for OM periodically (4 months out from D-Day). The keys are:
* Minimum 15 hours per week of undivided attention (UA)... preferably more for those in recovery from infidelity.
* Avoid all Love Busters (LBs).
* Meet her top Emotional Needs (ENs).

She will fall in love with you again if you do this consistently and avoid Love Bank withdrawals.

PH,

If all goes well, you'll be working at this for a couple of years yet.

I don't say that to dash your hopes, only to reset your expectations. You will likely not ever again have to deal with anything that is so emotionally draining, psychologically perplexing and mentally demanding. It will be the most difficult thing you have ever done or ever will do in your entire life.

That said, it does get better with time. Yet, you just have to trust me on this, she will be over it before you will, unless something catastrophic happens that sets her back. Your good days will give you hope. Your bad days will make you wonder if it's all worth it.

Barnboy's analysis is spot on, BTW. While that sounds just like Plan A, it is really the way a MB marriage happens. Ideally she will at some point begin using MB methods and applying them to the marriage as well and that is when things will become better than ever before.

Even those who don't fully embrace MB can learn the process of meeting ENs, avoiding Love Busters etc. UA time can be demonstrated to be of value. Meeting ENs and avoiding LBs can be shown to make a difference. POJA can be demonstrated. Even when the FWS is not fully engaged in MB, the process works and if it can be explained what you are doing then your wife may follow your lead.

Eventually, it works much better if you are both totally on board with MB, but at least at first you doing the things MB teaches can go a long way toward getting her to buy in.

Hang in there. It gets better, but beware having high expectations for everything to get to where it needs to be in a hurry. Unmet expectations will be the hardest thing for YOU to overcome.

Mark

PH,

""She says she doesn't feel what we did (that night) was wrong, but I think she might have had a thought of him during the moment and that bothered her. She told me her emotions are still raw and she is still trying to get it all figured out.""

Your wife should be embarrased and humiliated that this low life scum bucket was trying to lure her into his brutal and controling web. BUT SHE SHOULD ALSO BE FURIOUS and DETEST THE A**!OLE!!

I don't understand her foggy lingering on him. She BELIEVES and UNDERSTANDS that he is an alcoholic wife beater, correct?

She should be very relieved that you all found out when you did.

Is she in denial that she was such a tool?

kirk

Since the information came from the OM's mother in law, she discounts a lot of it but she knows there is enough truth there to show he was not being honest with her and was not someone she could trust or ever subject our kids to.

I know she felt strongly about him and those feelings don't just evaporate, even with news of his deception. I also know she realizes just how timely the information came and why I did it. The fog is lifting a little at a time, she just wants to be able to give her all to working on US and is trying to figure out how she is supposed to handle these other emotions so she CAN give it her all.

I understand what Mark was saying, I saw a brief moment of what WE can be again but I have to channel my expectations back because this will take time. I know these feelings she has for the OM will eventually fade, I just needed to know what I can do to help her with that.

Catperson mentioned earlier today finding a new wrinkle that is just between me and her, any suggestions on what that new something might be? I am game for anything!

Did I ever supply you my ideas list? You can pick something off of it, or supply your own:
Read a book together
Take turns picking out a movie to watch
Bring out the board games, at least once a week
Start a solitaire club with some neighbors or friends, play solitaire against each other one night a week or month
Start gardening together
Grow herbs/vegetables/fruits
Take walks
Start a sport together; take classes at a community college, such as racquetball or volleyball
Get bikes and start riding bikes together
Sign up for an MS 150 and train for the bike ride all year
Plan some day trips, start taking one every month
Try out one new restaurant every week, take turns choosing and surprising the other with it
Go to bookstore and get a book like �52 great invitations to sex� in which you both have 26 invitations for a special evening to invite the other one, and you set it up, give the other the invitation (included in book) and then put on the evening
Join an online gaming community together (but don�t get addicted!)
Buy a Wii or Guitar Hero and play together
Give each other foot rubs
Take massage class together and practice giving each other massages
Go back to school together
Get a pet, take it to obedience school and learn to train it (if applicable)
Join a neighborhood dinner club or other club
Volunteer together
Join a church or get more involved in your church
Take a cooking class together and take turns cooking for each other
Go to HGTV.com and pick out a project to do for your house together
Take free classes at Home Depot on how to fix something at your house
Start a business together
Organize a block party
Organize a family reunion
Start working with a financial planner or learn about stocks together
Take dancing lessons together; if you like it, start entering in competitions
Go online for your city and look up 'activities' and 'family' and maybe even 'free' if your city is big enough; subscribe to those websites and go there every month to look for upcoming activities you can all do together; you can find plays, music events, art things, sports things, picnics, etc.

Cat, these are great! I am thrilled to see some of the things I have started already are on your list, makes me feel like I am doing some things right for a change.

Thanks for your help! - PH

Just dropping a note of support. As a new member, I tried to PM you, but found those are disable!

I'm checking out this site because a friend sings it's praises- and came across your story. I can't give any advice on how or what to do as it seems the MB plans of action seem remarkably different than those that I have experience and belief in-- at least as far as an affair crisis goes.

But, I did want to say that you're an amazingly strong and patient person, and your dedication to your wife is wonderful. I wish the both of you the best of luck!

Nicki
Decembrr@wildblue.net

Thanks for the encouragement Nicki. All I can say is my girl is worth it. I know the real her and she is slowly but surely coming back around. She got caught up in a snare of lies and empty promises at a time when life was hitting us hard as a family.

When I said my vow to her all those years ago, I truly meant it being for life. D is not an option for me. My kids deserve to have examples of parents who can work through even the worst of issues and I am determined to be that for them.

I have studied several different theories of how to save a relationship in cases like this and Dr. Harley's is by far the best I found. His book Surviving An Affair is great but this forum and the absolutely wonderful people who contribute such wisdom on a daily, sometimes hourly, basis is what really got me to this point. These guys are my heroes! I can only hope that I can someday help someone else through issues like this in a positive way through examples of folks like Mark and crew.

Talking with folks who have been through this is the only real support you can get, friends and family mean well and give good advice, but until you have felt the pain and despair caused by a WS, you can't truly understand what the BS is going through.

PatientHusband,

I was the BS 14+ years ago, though my husband's affair went far beyond that of an EA. I think the emotional aspect of the affairs is the hardest to recover from in many ways, though. I know all too well what the BS goes through, unfortunately. It pains both myself and my husband to see anyone else suffer through that now.

A great support system is amazing! Something that I wish I'd had way back then. I had family and friends that were well meaning, but not very understanding and helpful when it came to reconciling and rebuilding a great marriage. It's truly a gift for so many people to have that!

Keep your chin up-- your dedication will get you through!

Nicki

""Since the information came from the OM's mother in law, she discounts a lot of it ""

Is there a brother or sister of the OM's wife you BOTH could talk to? A police blotter or rap sheet on the guy you could get ahold of? A neighbor of the OM??

The thing is she probably doesn't want to hear anymore bad things about the low life.

kirk

Kirk, you are exactly right, she doesn't want to hear anymore and to tell you the truth, I don't think it would help any to bring more up right now. Yes I have an ex-wife's email and phone number plus neighbors, former step-parents, co-workers, etc. OM's MIL was very forthcoming to say the least. I could build quite a case if I needed to, but for now, I don't want to even bring him up.

I am concentrating on being 100% positive, showing her I am still the man she fell in love with all those years ago. I am actually enjoying romancing her again because its building up those love bank units for both her and myself.

If I have to go back to that arsenal, I have it but for now, I don't think its necessary.

I dislike your choice of words, but there is a lot of truth in them.

My WW and I signed and notarized a legal Separation Agreement. Five copies. Three stayed with my attorney and one for each of us.

I handed her her copy and she asked me, "Is there anything in there that is going to hurt me?"

"Huh?" Said I. "You read it. You signed it."

"But I didn't understand some of the things in it."

This from a woman who once worked as a legal assistant.

Fog. Fog. Fog.