My wife is heavily involved in an EA with an old BF from 20 years ago who lives 600 miles away. I know she really wants to stay in our marriage but she cannot let go of this other person, whom now she only knows in the virtual world. She talks to him and texts him all day every day but they have not seen each other since school.

I have told her its him or me but not both, so she has been trying to emotionally detach herself from me for the last month now. Again, I know she would rather stay, but I think any more pressure from my end would push her out. She is a very prideful person so if she leaves, and realizes her mistake, her pride will most likely prevent her from coming home. I love her to death and I know she will not be happy with this person.

Any suggestions on how to turn this ship around? She will not commit to our marriage while she is still thinking about these feelings for him. Her own family is telling her to put her family first but she gets constant, sometimes hourly pressure from the OM, who is also married w/ kids.

I have "Surviving An Affair" and have tried to read the first 6 chapters to her but she won't have it. Claims she is not having an affair since nothing physical has happened. I am afraid if I begin to detach coupled with her detachment from me, that she'll be gone in a week.

She is not thinking clearly. I need to save her but I can't get through. Help!

Have you exposed her EA to the OMW?

You can not make her clear it. She didn't develop it overnight and it is unrealistic to think she will snap to and 'get it' any time soon.

Work the MB program...plan Aing and eventually plan Bing and hope for the best.

You can't make her participate in reading and understanding MB now either. You have to do all the work for now.

That's just the way it is.

Get all the proof you can then expose OMW. Save the documentation somewhere safe.

NJ

I think you're not supposed to do any relationship talk at this point. It will drive her further away.

Sorry you are here. Expose to OMW if u haven't yet.

And 600 miles away.
Not too far.
I'd go there in PERSON and tell OM in front of his wife to STOP engaging in a sick secret emotional affair with YOUR WIFE.

If you cannot do this in person, call OM's wife and tell her what is going on.

OM will back off if he's busted.

According to my wife, the OMW already knows everything, supposedly they are in process of splitting now.

Don't believe what your wife says (part of the fog).

Go straight to the OM's Wife and tell her and get her version of the truth.

He is LYING through his teeth. Regardless, this is the hardest part for a BH. I don't know if I could deal w/ it. It has to be so tempting to give a ww the finger and say well, "HAVE A GOOD LIFE!". But this is MB, so I would plan A your rear off and move to plan B(Deep and Dark) if A fails. I would tell anyone and everyone what she is doing. YOu have all the chips moving to your side of the table. You could probably rape her financially since she is so fogged out. Good luck! Dude

And you won't be able to begin to get her to even start thinking clearly until after you've thrown cold-water on her affair-fantasy through exposing it, and making the costs to her of continuing her affair greater than the enjoyment she feels from the drug-like addiction of her affair partner.

First, you've got to expose it to the OM's wife. Contact her directly and make clear to him that you won't stand for her husband's continued contacting your wife. Exposure is the surest way to end an affair. It's what ended mine.

How is he contacting her? On cellphone or computer accounts that your income is helping to pay for? If so, put your foot down. If your name is on the accounts, cancel 'em.


It's not fair to you that you have no comfortable choices here, but you need to make the best of the uncomfortable choices that are before you. You say you think she "really wants to stay in [y]our marriage", but you're afraid she'll bail out as soon as you start cutting off the oxygen that's feeding her affair. Well, how do you want to live? Do you want to live with a wife who's in an active affair (and make no mistake, and emotional affair is an affair just the same, and will probably lead to a physical one as soon as opportunity for contact arises)?

If you've read SAA, you know what you need to do. Expose. Try to meed her needs. Try to keep your head about you while hers snaps back (hopefully) in the direction of reality. I understand you're worried that in her affair-addled state-of-mind, she might try to bolt. But if you've exposed to the OM's wife, then where's she gonna bolt TO -- to a guy who might be on the verge of getting kicked out of his own house & having a big chunk of his income going to his own ex-wife for alimony & child support, if OM's wife kicks HIM out? Then, chances are your wife's Prince Charming won't be looking so rosy to her.

Oh!

And it is crucial you DO NOT TELL your own wife when you are going to expose to the OM's Wife. It is hard to keep that info internally when we are used to telling our spouses everything BUT do not let her know you are going to talk to the other man's wife.

Stop trying to educate her and educate yourself.

You have no control over her, only over what YOU do.

Read up on and be sure you understand Plan A (Short synopsis in the Musings thread in my sig line- go to page 1 for the start)

Identify her top Emotional Needs (ENs). You can accomplish this with out her having to complete the questionnaire or give you any feedback beyond what she has already given you throughout your marriage, since the things she complained about in the past probably point to what she felt was missing. Begin to unilaterally meet those top ENs as much as she will allow you to without feedback either positive or negative and in spite of feedback either positive or negative from her. Don't do it for short term reward or acknowledgment but simply in order to meet her ENs thereby making deposits into her Love Bank (LB$).



Learn to identify those things that you do that amount to Love Busters (LBs). These are things that will destroy feelings for romantic love for you in your wife. Learn to control all such actions on your part. Simply get rid of all Love Busters so that you are not constantly having to make up for the things you have done that might cause her to draw away from you.


Do NOT look for signs that you are getting through to her or expect a pat on the head every time you don something right. Simply meet her ENs, avoid LBs and have no expectations as to whether or not you are getting through to her.

Contact OM's wife and let her know what is going on. Do this as soon as you can develop a plan of how to accomplish it. DO NOT involve your wife in this process in any way, shape or form. Do NOT threaten to do this or tell her you will do this or hint that it might happen unless certain conditions are met, JUST DO IT...

After you do this, also consider who else you might need to expose this affair to that could support your efforts to save your marriage. Formulate a plan of attack so that this goes smoothly, suddenly and without reaction to what your wife will do in response to each and every exposure. Rest assured that she will be very unhappy when you do this. She will call you names you never knew she had in her vocabulary, say that she was thinking about reconciling with you but that your involving others has ruined any chance of that, that she could never trust you after you did such a thing, that you had no right to involve her family, his wife or any of the others you might tell about the affair and a bunch of other stuff that you need to just ignore and have no response to other than saying that you are fighting to save your marriage.

Meet her ENs
Avoid Love Busters
Have no expectations

You will not educate her into coming back to you and ending the relationship with OM.
You will not coerce her into coming back to you and ending the relationship with OM.
You will not force her into coming back to you and ending the relationship with OM.

You might be able to entice her back to you and convince her to end the relationship with OM.

Make yourself a better choice than OM. Do this by meeting her top ENs and avoiding LBs.

Make the relationship with OM more costly than she is willing to pay (expose to OM's wife at once and others as they may be useful in your effort to save your marriage.

Before you can FIX the marriage, you have to save it. Work on saving it. Fix it if you can save it. If you try to fix it before saving it, you will have nothing left to fix.

All you can FIX right now is YOU.

Make YOU the best YOU that YOU can become.

Meet her ENs
Avoid Love Busters
Have No expectations

(are you seeing a theme here?)

Welcome to Marriage builders. Sorry to see you here, but considering the circumstances it is a great place to be.

Read up on Plan A!
Develop a specific plan.
Implement your plan.
Execute your plan.
Stick with your plan.
Let nothing distract you from your plan.

Mark

And say it is all true, that the OM does know about it already, and my wife will surely find out about it, will that not automatically be another big strike against me? I tend to garner a bunch of them, even though I have done nothing.

I so wish she would just come around, but you are right, this is too mind-numbing for her. She can't wait to get on the phone with him.

Call the OMW anyway. I'll bet she'll be very surprised to hear that her M is over.

What about my kids, do I tell them Mommy is astray? I know the book says that they need to know they are not causing the tension and my 11 yo is certainly feeling it. Wife adamantly does not want them to know she is doing this. She wants them to think we just can't live together any longer. I don't want to turn my kids against her, that would be counter productive. What do I tell them?

There's your answer -- you've stumbled upon it in your own words: By doing nothing, you're racking up strikes against yourself. So act, decisively.

Your problem is the affair.
You have to fight the affair.

The affair is an addiction. It is not "like" an addiction, it actually involves the same chemicals in the brain as smoking crack.

Your goal can't be to avoid making her angry; it has to be to end the affair.

You can't demand the end of the affair.
You can't make her end the affair.
You can't teach her to end the affair.
You can't punish her into ending the affair.

Make remaining married to you a better choice than continuing the affair.

Fix what you can fix. Fix your half of the marriage.

At the same time make the affair untenable.

Once the affair ends and she has completed withdrawal from the feelings she gets from contacting OM the fog will begin to clear. If you stand up for her and your marriage and fight for her by standing strong for your marriage in the face of the affair, she will someday realize that you are her hero.

You are afraid to make her angry. She is in love with another married man and is also destroying his marriage and family. How much worse do you think you could make it?

If you doubt that everyone arrives here right where you are right now go read the threads of almost anyone in the SAA forum or the archived JFO forum.

Mark

ETA: Read the first page on my Musings thread: click here

Thanks Mark, your post was great help. Everything you said is so true. I can't control anything she feels.

Building up myself is my only real option.

I had typed up a 3 page letter to her this morning explaining God's plan and how she is flying in His face, but I think I'll just put that in the drawer for now.

One more (growing a pair here so pardon me for all the questions), but should I confront the OM also or is that just fruitless?

Skip the letter!

You can't educate her into ending the affair!

I don't know if confronting OM will help or hurt your cause. It could go either way.

You cannot come across as needy, pathetic or whining. OTOH, you can't come across as threatening unless you are willing to come to blows which could land you in jail. If you are going to confront OM, simply ask him his intentions toward your wife and be done with him. Let him know that you will not step aside and let him take your wife away from you.

But before confronting him, expose to his wife so that he can't spin to her that you are a jealous nut case.

Do I expose to my kids too? I know SAA says they need to know they aren't the cause of the tension in the house. But I don't want to turn them against her. My S11 is asking a lot of questions about whats going on, why is everyone so stressed, etc. He gets a lot of the crap from her before I get home to. Poor kid can't catch a break sometimes.

Dude,

By making that call you are being PRO-ACTIVE rather than..a..what...kinda milque toast whiney boy??

It's so frustrating because you can't DO anything. Well here you are at least DOING something.

And we bet you a dollar to a doughnut that either your WW is lying to you or the OM is lying to your WW...because that is what adulterers do.....they lie, fib, tell un-truths.

And of course your WW is an adulterer. She is emotionally distancing herself from you. Totally infatuated with this low life, fantasizing about the low life all the time, etc. An emotional affair. Where the emotion, intimacy, tenderness, camaderey and attention is focused AWAY FROM YOU AND ONTO ANOTHER.

The ONLY way to UNFOG your WW is for her to not have any contact with the low life any more and withdraw from him, like a crack addict from the crack pipe, or an alchoholic from the bottle.

And it won't be a big strike against you, is will be a lost battle or skirmish in the war for YOUR MARRIAGE!!

IMHO

kirk

Read this post from Dr Harley yesterday... Telling the kids

The children need to know that WW is dating the OM. That married people do not have "boy friends" or "girl friends".

PH,

I'm 9 weeks into the hell that is my WWs affair. Things aren't going all that well but I can tell you this one thing: this is not some minor argument or simple marital issue. YOUR WIFE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR. Whether physical or not, she is being unfaithful. I think because of the severe emotional trauma BS tend to erect barriers that prevent us from seeing or feeling the full reality of the situation. But don't be fooled - this is a very real battle for your WWs soul.

You talked about a letter about God's plan. Satan has his eyes on your wife and is going to use her and the OM to destroy your family. Now is not the time for weakness. It is a time to stand and fight. Not with anger. Not with bitterness. Not with yelling and screaming. That won't work and WILL drive her away. Instead, you need to follow the advice you are getting here already: start with Plan A.

Plan A means that you SHOW love as much as possible but you don't go around talking about love, about the relationship, etc. Your WW is delusional right now. Relationship talk won't work. Instead, you need to show love in other ways. And don't expect ANYTHING in return. In fact, expect to be criticized. This is unconditional love. This is charity - the pure love of Christ. It's hard, really, really hard.

Plan A also means doing what you can to end the affair without resorting to LBs. Do your best to bring your WW back into your family. Go on walks. Go out. Do things she enjoys. Try to keep her away from the OM whenever possible.

Second, do you have access to your wife's computer? Have you done any snooping yet? If you haven't already, get a keylogger to get access to e-mail accounts, Facebook, etc. This is going to give you a good idea of the depth of the affair and also whether or not contact is continuing. It will also hurt. You're going to read things you never wanted to know. Be prepared. And yes, this is sneaky but it is the RIGHT THING to do. Knowledge is power and you need every advantage you can get.

Also, have you looked into counseling? We don't use Dr. Harley but one specific to our religion (LDS) and they fully support healing of a marriage. Watch out for counselors that will encourage your wife to separate or feed her other nonsense.

The fact that she has said she wants to come back is a good start. Use that as your foundation then build on it.

Also remember that your WW is not likely to be trusted right now. I think it may depend upon the depth of the affair but as someone pointed out affairs ARE addictions - same chemical response. And if your wife is addicted then she is going to do anything to get that next fix. And she will lie and deceive to do it. That's why NC is so critical - it's the only way to end the addiction.

Good luck, man. This will be the very worst thing you will ever go through. Use it as a time to draw closer to God and to your kids and strengthen yourself. You will find that you are a WHOLE LOT stronger than you ever believed.

Her retort will be that god wants her to be happy and he told her so. There's even verses waywards use to prove their point. They just know they are pre-forgiven and can do whatever they want with no fear of retribution.

You need to get that cellphone and stomp it flat in front of her. Throw the computer out if need be.

Yep. Been there done that. Won't work. Waywards are a bizarre breed. No sanity, no thought, just fog.

This is right on put the letter away. I wrote many letters to my FWW but never gave them to her. It helped me to type out all the crap I felt but it would have made me look very needy had I given them to her.

On confronting the OM. The first OM in my situation, yes I said first cause there were a couple more, was from a few hundred miles away. I called him one night and asked him what he was doing with my wife. I threatened him right away and he acted like the tough guy. We went back and fourth for a minute or two and then it was done. I simply told him in as peaceful terms as I could how he was a POS for messing with a married woman and one with two young children. I spent a good 30-45 minutes on the phone with him that night. I just tried my best to let him know that I wasn't going to just step aside while he destroyed my family. The next morning my FWW showed me a text she received from him telling her to delete his numbers and he was doing the same because it just wasn't worth it.

Also you need to contact this POS wife weather you confront him or not. I would bet the house she knows nothing of what is going on. AND DON'T TELL YOUR WW YOU ARE DOING THIS.

When you expose to OM's wife, your wife ill say something along the lines of "How could you involve her?" or "You are ruining her marriage." or something of that sort. Your reply should be that cheating is what is wrong, that the cheating is what is destroying both marriages and that the affair partners are the ones doing all the damage here. Then walk away calmly and don't listen to any more such crap.

OM's wife is the best possible ally you can have right now since she can pressure the affair to end from OM's side of the equation. With luck as OM begins to realize that at least half his pay, pension and accumulated assets are going to be leaving on the next bus to Long Beach he is likely to throw your wife under the bus without much hesitation. Affairs aren't much fun when they are costing you everything you've ever had or hoped to have. Even true love can't overcome that kind of thing for long.

But do this soon so that they can't make plans to be together to consummate this mess they call love. Sex ups the ante some since the addition of high levels of oxytocin added to the dopamine already fueling their addiction will make the addiction that much harder to break. Trust me on this, once they have sex, they will have a bond that will be stronger than they have right now. Stop this before it reaches that point and wait out the six weeks or so of depression, moodiness and lethargy from your wife once no contact is established (yeah, real withdrawal symptoms too).

A train is coming and you're standing on the tracks. Hesitation will lead to your demise. Act while you can still choose the direction you want to go. If you wait till the train gets here, you will have to struggle just to survive. Indecision is a decision.

Act so you don't have to react.

Call OM's wife ASAP.

As they might say in Texas...

Cowboy up and git 'er done.

Mark

Good example how exposure works:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2268641&page=1

I reread SAA last night and I have been basically doing plan A for about a month, even though I didn't realize it. I haven't dwelled on emotions at all except in the letter that I have since shelved.

She has not said she wants to work on our marriage, in fact she says she can't think about that until she resolves her feelings for OM. But the fact that she is still here tells me she is doing a big battle over what is right.

I don't really believe I can go much longer on Plan A. She homeschools my kids during the day. Cell phones do not work inside my house so she has to go outside to make these calls. When she does this, hours at a time, she is leaving my children unattended inside while she is out there, plus the school work is not getting done. When she does come back in, she starts yelling at the kids for all they did when she was gone (this is per my 11yo). They deserve better than this. I know she loves them but she is putting the OM ahead of them now too.

I still love her, but honestly, she has changed so much in the last few months that I am truly not feeling attracted to her any more. Her attitude is all wrong, she doesn't do any domestic duties (such as clean house or laundry) and has stopped contributing to the family financially (quit her job) which has really pushed our financial situation into the red. I am struggling to keep us afloat. I know all of this is due to his influence.

My patience is running out but I know my wife is still in there somewhere. For my kids sake, I want to get her back. I am not a quitter and I don't run out on my responsibilities.

I am planning to contact the OMW today which leads me to more questions: Do I stop at just the reveal or can I go long and start asking about details, assuming she is talkative? My wife has told a lot about this guy and his family and I would love nothing more than to prove he has lied 100% to her. Do you think the OMW would be that talkative? I also have her mother's phone number. I may start there as she is a big shot in her church and might be shocked to find out about this.

You can benefit each other as a source of info to find out about the affair an source of info to bust up the affair.

Have you told her and your parents that she is leaving their grandchildren alone for HOURS while she chases OM?

My mom would skin me alive if I did that to her grandbabies.

Whether the OM'sW is talkative or not, the exposure will be critical for the plan you follow.

Don't relay back info to your WW right away (such a temptation but don't even mention having spoke with the OMW)

Once your WW finds out about the exposure she will go wild and crazy with the script responses mentioned by all (venom back at you and threats of abandoming the marriage due to your action)

Ride that through. It is that addict. Her leaving the kids during the day to get her fix is a great example of the power of the drug of fantasyland.

Anyway. Keep studying SAA and put your taker in the dugout to watch your giver do a brilliantly enticing job of being the compassionate, loving spouse (even in this dire situation).

Start with OM's wife.....she probably doesn't know anything and she has a RIGHT to know. Don't believe ANYTHING your WW says about their marriage. OM could be lying to her, my H sure did. Either way, this poor OM's wife deserves to know what is going on.....

Then call MIL. The purpose of exposure is to enlist as many as you can to help burst this fantasy bubble the AP's are living in. Gather many allies as you can.....

And lastly, listen VERY CLOSELY to Mark. His wisdom and knowledge will get you far. He was an great help to me when I was where you are.....

Not2fun

Also be prepared to hear lots of lies about yourself.
She has likely told OM that you are abusive or neglectful or uninvolved, or you've lived like roommates for years. Heck, you might even be divorced and you don't even know it! Or you've agreed to divorce, but you're waiting til the kids get older.
She's probably told the OM incredible lies to get him involved....

Be prepared for your wife's fury. She will be furious that you have exposed the lies. She will rant and rave at you. She will try to make you believe that she was just about to end it -- but now she can never TRUST YOU again!

PH,

You said

You can actually write this and wonder if you should tell your children???? They are being ignored, yelled at, and otherwise just pushed aside, and you wonder if they should know why or not? What are you thinking?

Your children need to know what is going on in an age appropriate manner. Tell them today. You also need to seek other schooling options as clearly she is failing them as a teacher as well as a mother. They don't need to lose months of schooling while she carries on her affair. Document, document, and then take them to school where they have a chance to learn and be away from this mess.

You should also seek some counseling for them even if you don't for yourself.

You also said You need to plan A for a bit longer but plan B is coming and you need to ask her to leave the house. She contributes nothing as it is.

Are you seeing why you need to expose this affair to all of your family, friends, her family, and certainly OM's W? You need help. Exposure is not done for punishment, it is done to seek help in convincing WS to end the affair, AND (this is very important to you) to seek help for yourself and your kids. You all need help.

You need to be open and honest with the kids, and as has been stated several times already you do NOT tell your W about your exposure plans.

You have a lot to do, you need to get started.

God Bless,

JL

PS: It is time you changed from PatientHusband, to ActiveHusband and even more importantly GreatFather to your children.

Why do you insist on trying to educate her into ending the affair?

As far as the crazy way she is acting, ALL waywards act like that. An affair is a purely selfish thing done for purely selfish reasons based on purely selfish emotions derived from purely selfish feelings and allowed to continue due to purely selfish justifications.

Don't try to FIX anything other than yourself.

Meet her Ens
Avoid Love Busters
Have no expectations

Don't talk about it.
Don't discuss it.
Don't tell her about it.
Don't modify it.
Don't make it into a referendum on your relationship.

Per Nike...

Just DO IT!

She will NOT commit to working on the marriage until the affair is over, she has gone a couple of months with no contact with OM at all and the fantasy aspect of the affair has faded into the dust of horrendous events past.
Don't expect it.
Don't look for signs of it.
Don't wait for it.
Don't count on it.

1) Meet her ENs
2) Avoid Love Busters
3) Have no expectations

Simple as 1, 2, 3 and the hardest thing you'll do unless you get a chance at recovery...

Which won't happen if you keep trying to FIX this by logic, education, coercion, enforcement, demanding or chest pounding.

She has to want to be with you more than she wants to be with him. What you DO will determine that, not what you say, what you show her on paper, in a book, on the Internet, in a letter or email, on Youtube or any other place where you might find things that give you hope.

Develop a plan to:

Meet her ENs
Avoid Love Busters

And do these things with NO EXPECTATIONS as to how she might respond.

And remember that when she finds out that you contacted OM's wife, she will go totally, completely, certifiably NUTS! As in...

BALLISTIC...

As in THROWING THINGS (which is the real meaning of the word ballistic, BTW)

She will do all she can to pressure you to back off. Things you didn't know she had inside her will come out. She is an addict and you are messing with the source of her drug. Expect her to act like you've never imagined. That is one expectation you should have.

Expect nothing else in the way of reaction other than lashing out, all consuming anger and venting.

Mark

I hear what you are saying loud and clear.

My wife already suspects I have told S11, she has asked him repeatedly what he and I talk about and when. My son doesn't trust her, he has heard her tell a girlfriend on the phone some stuff he has trusted her with and that betrayal has stuck with him. He knows I am his ally and his father and that I will be there for him regardless. I almost told him last night who she talks to on the phone so much.

As to documentation, I have all the cell records that show her being outside for up to 80 minutes at a time while the kids were all there. These records go back to July. I would say that would be enough to suffice in court to prove negligence in a custody battle if it came to that. Her cell is in her name but I pay the bill. I may let it lapse this month, I have enough evidence and I am tired of enabling this. What else do I need to be documenting?

I was planning to call the OMW today, but I need to think this through another day or so, I need be on ready if she decides to bolt with the kids and leave the state so I would rather do this on a Friday so I know I would be there and could control matters for the weekend.

> I would say that would be enough to suffice in court to prove negligence in a custody battle if it came to that.

What are you doing for the children KNOWING your wife is doing this?

The courts WILL ask that.

If you suspect your wife is not caring for them when she should be, as the responsible parent it is up to YOU to provide the care. The courts will expect it of you.

So what is your plan here? You need a plan. Right now you have bits of paper saying what she is doing....what are you going to do about it.

Kids first, waynerds last IMO.

PH,

Also, be prepares for the doo-doo to hit the fan once you do expose. Waywards HATE when their dirty little secret comes out. She will be madder than a hornet, but that is N�O�R�M�A�L. You will hear things like.....

"I was going to work things out but you just went too far"
"You are a mean, vindictive man....why would I want to stay married to you?"
"How could YOU do this to me?"
"You went too far, I can never trust you now..."

or variations of that.

Don't buy into it. And STAY CALM. When she unleashes her storm, be the calm one. It helps if you put her into the catagory of a toddler throwing a temper tantrum. Don't yell back, don't use sarcasm, and if it gets too hard to bear walk away.

You may reply with, "Honey, I'm doing everything I can to save our marriage, which is not possible with OM in it" or "You are the carrying on this extramarital affair. I'm trying to save the marriage".

Whatever you do though, don't Love Bust. And DO NOT APOLOGIZE. You didn't cause this, so do not assume the blame.

And lastly, please keep this in mind.....
"Your marriage can survive her anger, it cannot survive an ongoing affair"

not2fun

Re: her cellphone, you said:
Why so passive? If you're still documenting, that'd be one thing, but if you've got enough evidence, then call the phone company today & cancel it now.

Enough already, man up and expose everyone today.

Guys, I am so confused. Last night and this morning she has been so nice, even gave me a big hug this morning before I left for work (no kiss). My mood goes from ready to kick her out to worshiping her again in a matter of minutes. Of course I know the OM will be talking to her very soon, probably has already started texting this morning. After 17 years of being as close as we were and having as good a marriage as we did, its hard not to let this consume me.

So, say I expose to the OMW, after the "doo-doo" hits the fan as not2fun said, then what? Who's to say this isn't what sends her out the door straight to him?

Those of you that went the exposure route, how did it go for you? Good, Bad, how long did the explosion last?

I know I said yesterday that I had lost my attraction for her, but that is for the woman this has turned her into, not the real her. I know that beautiful woman with the huge loving heart is still in there. I do not want to be ignorant or passive, I do want to fight for my wife, my marriage and for my kids, but I also don't want to make some fatal mistake. Right now, she hasn't been with him physically, I don't really think I could take that. She is still home, she is confused. She is a smart lady who has gotten herself into something she didn't ask for or realize until she was in too deep. She knows right from wrong, but that "fog" is blocking her vision.

Am I just hopeless? Can I be blamed for loving this beautiful woman so much, who brought me so much happiness for so long? Perhaps it is I who is in the fog.

Let the beatings begin.

I do not mean to be harsh,as I know you are hurting. But, I really think you are hurting your chances of getting your wife back by being so passive/doormatish.

I fought the advise to expose a well. I should have done it last fall and didn't. By not, I unkowingle allowed calls and emails to continue. I did expose, and my WH was MAD. Actually said I had hurt him. Like he hadn't caused me so much more pain and grief. I am now in plan B and WH seems to be in a panic. I still don't know if my marriage is fixable or if WH is capable of doing what it takes for recovery, but I know that I did everything in MY power to save it, and I can find some peace with that.

Don't allow WW to take kids. Get all of your family involved in this. There is no reason they have to be home schooled. It doesn't sound like she is effective now anyway. My kids have gone all the way through public school. Is it the best situation? IDK. But for the most part they are happy and thriving and have had some VERY good and caring teachers and coaches who look out for their best interest. Some know part of our situation, and have been so caring and understanding, and have gone the extra mile to help my kids. I am so blessed to have so many caring adults in their lives. They know too, that there are some really good people who care and love them, even if their dad is not really acting like it right now.

My advise - Expose. Call OMW. Tell your kids. Make plans and date for plan B. Plan B might take her out of her fog, if it doesn't lift before then. Make it clear that you will not allow her to take your children away from you. If they know what is going on, they probably won't want to go with her anyway. This is her decision, not yours, as she has destroyed your marriage and family.

She's comparing a real life with you to a fantasy that she is able to control and make up in her own head that involves the OM.

What do YOU think would be the way to win this battle?

Are you willing to wait until she actually goes off and spends a weekend with OM before you blow the fantasy to bits?

Are you willing to have her move out and live with OM for a while in order to discover her true feelings so she can consider whether she wants to return to you or run off with him?

Are you willing to wait patiently at home for her, staring into the faces of your children as they look at you wondering why Mommy has a boyfriend and Daddy doesn't have a girlfriend?

How far does this still infantile fantasy of hers have to go before it is a serious enough problem for you to do something?

A question you might want to consider asking folks around here would be "Who didn't expose and things turned out to be wonderful for you and your wayward spouse?"

Soon after D-day, my wife and I spent the night together at our vacation cabin. We had incredible sex that night and again the next morning. She was up-beat, happy and smiling as she showered and got ready to leave for work. She sat and held my hand while we drank our coffee. She thanked me for fixing her breakfast, gave me a warm and sexy kiss, told me she had really enjoyed our time together, got into her car...

And called OM before she'd driven 100 yards. She talked to him the entire 90 minutes it took her to get to work. She called him two more times from work and then called me and told me that we might as well get divorced since she wasn't going to give up OM.

The fact that she is being nice to you is not an indication that she plans to end the affair.

Remember that method for making decisions that you learned in high school? You take a piece of paper and on one side you list all the things that are for going ahead with it. On the other side you list all those things that could be considered against the choice you are considering.

Your wife is doing that right now and I think you get that part. What I think you are missing is that you think she is comparing the real history and life you have had together, remembering all the good stuff as opposed to some guy she barely knows, has never had sex with and doesn't have any children with.

What she is really comparing is every negative thing that ever happened in your entire marriage complete with every time she has felt hurt by you, each annoying habit you possess, every sacrifice she has made not only for you but for the kids as well and what amounts to a real life and the resentment she feels deeply for each and every one of those sacrifices.

On the other side of the ledger she is listing all the things about OM that make her feel so happy. She is listing his talking to her for hours (while she completely ignores those annoying children). She is thinking about the compliments he has flattered her with three times already only 5 minutes into the conversation. She is listing the promises he has made about how he would never treat her like you do (ignoring her, running off to work when she really needs you at the moment, not having time to talk because the boss is in your office).

She is also making a list of how her life would be if they were together and the marriage were gone entirely...No kids, no mortgage, no bills, no laundry, no dirty dishes, no kids waking up at three in the morning to puke on your side of the bed as they run to you for comfort when they are sick...

She is comparing the things she doesn't much enjoy in her real life with what she wishes her life could be. OM isn't even the issue. She isn't comparing you to a real OM, merely a fantasy that she has made up in her mind...

You cannot win this comparison...

But you might be able to shed some light into the darkness where the fantasy exists, because fantasies can't exist in the light of reality. The bubble bursts as soon as truth hits it and then real things have to be considered.

Prediction if you don't bring this into the open soon: She will be very nice to you. She will spend less and less time that you can trace talking to OM. Her affair will be buried and soon you will think all is well. She will at some point begin talking about a trip to visit long lost aunts and uncles or some college room mate. It will be like when you first got married when it comes to sex. Things will be better than you can remember since the kids came along and she'll go have her ten day vacation without you...

And spend the entire time in the bed of OM where they will finally consummate their love for each other.

She'll come home and she'll be sullen and withdrawn. She make your life a living hell. The tension will mount until one day when things will explode and she'll say "I can't live like this any more..."

She'll get her own place, or more likely get you tossed from your home by court order so she can not be inconvenienced while taking care of the kids, which she has been doing your entire marriage. She'll get a job, nothing fancy and really only enough money to keep her in cellphones and perfume. She'll let everyone on the whole planet know that she tried really hard to work things out with you but the abyss was just too great to overcome since you had grown apart after so many years together.

Then one day she'll begin to mention that she has met some guy that she finds interesting, wait, make that fascinating. His name is OM. He makes her feel alive and has had some trouble in the marriage department himself so he understand what she is going through. She's thinking of dating him to see where things go. Oh, and he's moving here form his home state and so will stay with her(in the spare bedroom, of course) but only on the days that YOU have the kids (at least to begin with) and then at last, after years of torturing you she'll make a choice...

She'll file for divorce...

OR she'll send OM home to Momma and contact you to see if you'll take her back.

So having her get mad at you is worse than this how?

PH, understand this if nothing else; if she was planning on leaving you because you were an awful husband, you'd be getting hit with a court order to vacate your house at once. She'd be gone when you woke up one mooring. She'd hop on the bus, Gus... Get a new Plan, Stan...There must be 50 ways to leave your lover...

She's living in a fantasy.

You can try to out-survive her fantasy.

Or you can take control of your own life and fight to prevent the destruction of your family.

Oh, and BTW...

My wife and I (yep, the same one who wanted to divorce) are teaching a Marriage Builders class together on Wednesday nights at our church.

She was convinced to stay and make it work by two things. 1) The changes I made to myself and my half of the marriage and 2) The fact that a bunch of people were telling her over and over again that fixing her marriage was right and running off with OM was wrong. This bunch included her sisters, step mother, friends, pastor, college boy son...

A bull ride only has to last eight seconds...

Almost nobody can make it that long..

The time doesn't start till you're out the gate...

You have to nod to make the gate open...

Strap up and hang on...

Give a nod...

Make it happen...

Cowboy up!

Mark

Patient --

It's really important for betrayed MEN to expose, because you do NOT want to be seen by your WW as a doormat (willing to accept any abuse she dishes out, so desperate to win her back that you will put up with anything...etc) because she will VERY QUICKLY lose her respect for you.

You cannot lose her respect. That will be more harmful to your chances than her temporary anger over exposure.

Of course you love her and want her to stay and love you too.

You will need to face a storm first though. A storm of dealing with the addicted to another man storm. It is not pleasant but a challenge for a loyal, loving betrayed spouse.

Yes, it is concievable that exposure could send her out to OM. Most likely she will lay her wrath of being exposed on you and settle down and stay home but she may take off. An addict doesn't like the supply line messed with. It makes them mad because they are scared that it will be harder to get the substance they are addicted to (the fantasy, illicit affair partner).

Anyway. Stay calm in the face of the stuff she throws at you once you expose and she finds out (not from you. NOT FROM YOU) and realize that her reaction is the addiction. Don't take it personally (really)

You will very likely need to follow your plan A with a plan B at some point and be ready not to see, smell, feel her or hear her voice.

At that point she would be driven towards the OM. That is the point. The bubble of their relationship will be tested. At that point (once in plan B), you let go. YOu hope for the best and realize you are no longer enabling an addict.

So you plan A as long as you can. Leave a great impression and eventually most likely plan B. Let go and let the adulterers at each other without your involvment.

It is a gamble but the most logical plan.

You have to be prepared for a future with or without her.

Don't even worry about Plan B yet, PH. I don't think it is in your future if you can nip this while the buds are yet unopened.

She hasn't consummated this new love yet. Kill the fantasy before it has a chance to grow.

The problem in your marriage is the affair.
The enemy is the affair.
Fight the affair.
Kill the affair.
Fire the first shot against the fantasy of the affair.

Call OM's wife!

My wife had an 8-month EA. Almost consummated but she resisted his advances, and I caught it in time.

What stopped it?

1. Exposure. She said exposure had nothing to do with it; I say BALONEY and several weeks of every friend she's ever had getting back in touch with her to say how much they admire our marriage HAD to have had an impact!

2. Exposure, specifically to OMW. You see, OM called my WW in a screaming rage at me over this, seven times in the space of two hours. I have NEVER yelled at my wife in fifteen years of marriage. Score one for the good guys.

3. Exposure. Knowing that most of our friends and family were on the side of the marriage helped give me the strength to fight for my marriage.

4. Exposure. OMW helped police OM; OMW had had an emotional affair with another man some years prior, and knew what was required to get over it: absolute no-contact with the object of your EA. And there was another added perk: when my wife learned that it took me two weeks of hunting to chase down what OMW's wife's name was, her current address, her Facebook account, and her phone number, she took that as evidence that I was willing to fight really hard for our marriage.

5. Oh, right, did I mention exposure? Friends checking to see how I was doing. Friends volunteering to take WW to lunch and talk about life, trying to see if they can convince her to do the right thing without admitting they know of the affair. Friends taking it upon themselves to burst the bubble of the affair, and share their own experiences recovering from previous affairs in their marriage. Exposure helped me see that 80% of ALL MARRIAGES experience infidelity!

6. I Plan A'd my butt off. I wasn't perfect -- we had quite a bit of drama the first three weeks -- but I showed her what a great husband I could be, and what an inviting home I can create. I showed her how I was willing to change how I treated her so that I could better meet her emotional needs.

7. A commitment to create the best marriage we could have. I committed to follow a recovery program with her as soon as the other man was out of our lives.

8. I showed my wife I was willing to FIGHT for my marriage. I wasn't fighting her, I was fighting the affair. I fought through exposure, through interference, through stating the hurt the affair is causing the marriage without engaging in angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands. I fought by spending more time with my kids and protecting them from this vile influence in their lives. Through confrontation with the other man. Through snooping my butt off and finding creative ways to make each subsequent contact between the affair partners increasingly negative.

9. What she believes caused her "change of heart" was reading an article in her church magazine discussing "spiritual infidelity". I confronted her while she was writing an email to the other man, sharing the hurt she was engaging in at that very moment, and later that night she read that article. When she realized that her church -- and, by extension, her God -- frowned on her inappropriate relationship with a man who was not her husband (even though it wasn't sexual yet), it was the final straw that compelled her to write the no-contact letter.

The no-contact letter was not what I would have had her write. She was still rebellious at that point, feeling that she needed to take control of and own this no-contact letter without the involvement of "papa bear looking over my shoulder".

At the point at which she broke it off with him, she said it was because it felt "pointless". His wife was watching him; I was watching her. Nothing further could come of their relationship unless they each abandoned their respective spouses, therefore there was no further point in contact since she was not ready to take that leap (though he clearly was).

A few weeks later, she expressed gratitude that I talked to OMW; she said she'd felt "trapped" in her relationship with OM and didn't know how to end it.

A few weeks later, she said that she's glad things didn't continue progressing because "now I know things I didn't know then" about OM's lying regarding his relationship with his wife (never separated, never going through a divorce, etc.)

Today, she's fully committed, though the fog still creeps through from time to time when we discuss anything immediately surrounding the affair.

So I hope you took 4 lessons from this:

1. Expose. Expose. Expose. Oh, and did I mention "expose"? Seriously, this is the part where MOST OF US MEN WIMP OUT. We're so afraid of our wife's anger and her reactions, we forget that exposure is the RIGHT THING TO DO in most situations. Anger is tiring and temporary. Your marriage can survive your wife's momentary anger; it cannot survive a never-ending affair. For a point of reference, my FWW's anger about exposure lasted around two weeks, but really only three days of angry outbursts.

2. Meet her emotional needs consistently; take time off work if you must, or arrange to work from home.

3. Spend a MINIMUM of 25 hours a week with her (undivided attention if you can) in pursuit of goal #2. I told my boss I needed to work from home a few days a week to accomplish this goal. Even though I was working, I tried to be in the same room with her. It bothered her at first (because it interfered with calling OM during the day) but now she LOVES IT!

4. Engage in ZERO Love Busters, especially selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and anger. Exception: avoid discussions bout your snoops or exposure. Use the pat answers of "I will do whatever is necessary to save this marriage" or "everything I am doing is done to save this marriage" without further exploration of exactly how you're getting your information or to whom you've exposed & why.

PH,

Want a hero?

I nominate BarnBoy!

Want to be a hero?

Fight for your marriage!

Mark

Thanks for the encouragement. Just got back from lunch with WW where she informed me she had met w/ an atty this morning. Just a consult says she. Although I didn't react in front of her, it has sent me into a tailspin.

On way back from lunch, I tried to call OMW, still only voice mail. Trying to get a cell number for her now. I have a home number but I know the possibility is great that the OM is there and I do not want to even hear his voice. Any clue on how to best get a cell number for someone? This has gone way too far.

Mark, your posts are unbelievable. I wish I had found this site a month ago.

Thanks Barnboy, between you and Mark, you guys ARE my heros!

PH,

First, are you *sure* she met with an attorney? My WW told me this three or four times and she was lying each and every time.

Are you snooping yet? If not, that's the most immediate way to discover lying. Also check bank records if you have that access as well (although lawyers do have free consults). Also check phone records to see if she actually called a lawyer.

Don't freak out!! You *have* to be the strong one here. Wading through this muck takes superhuman strength. I imagine you are physically and emotionally exhausted but you have got to hold together for your family's sake.

Don't let her play mind games with you. Remember that waywards lie and they do it a lot. Sometimes it's half truths sometimes its complete BS. Again, snooping can help you figure out truth from fiction because she is likely being much more truthful with OM.

You've heard people talk about withdrawal here, right? She is on drugs and each time she tries to get off its painful for her and she'll want that fix. Getting through that period is going to be damn hard. Can you send her away to someplace where she can detox? She needs a solid few weeks (at least 3) of complete NC to make this happen. Can you do that? Someone you trust to help?

Have you really done FULL exposure - to everyone? This will give you lots of allies and will massively increase your support group while minimizing her. Don't be afraid to go after WW girlfriends, family, everyone. If they have any decency at all, they will be on your side. And by so doing, you make the EA that much harder to continue.

Don't give up. This is not hopeless at all! You can bust an EA, its just going to take patience and a willingness to stand up for what you know is right.

You can do it!

I feel your pain. I am in much the same situation as you. Except my wife DID file for divorce, about a month ago. I exposed, exposed, exposed, did all the right things according to MB. So far she is steaming ahead with the divorce.

She tells me the affair is over with, and I see no evidence or suspicious activity as I had previously. But, I do not believe her. I think they have just gone more underground. I can't figure out why a woman with 3 kids, starting a career as an RN, wants to basically dump her family, be reduced to almost poverty level, and be a part-time parent, unless there is someone else waiting in the wings (the OM).

I continue to Plan A her, I have fallen off the wagon a couple of times but for the most part I am on track. I hold her accountable without being disrespectful. Still hoping the fog will clear and she will come to her senses before the divorce is finalized (at least a year from what I hear from my attorney). Her family (huge family) does not support her AT ALL in any decision she is making.

Keep doing Plan A, don't believe a word your wife says. Expose! I was much like you in the beginning, too afraid to rock the boat. But after being lied to several times, and disrespected I began standing up for myself and taking charge. Best thing I ever did.

I am curious how many other recovered marriages involved divorce proceedings only to have the divorce stopped before it was finalized...I hope you are able to nip this in the bud before attorney's are involved. They are expensive, we've already spent $1,600 (out of $3,000 we each paid in retainer fees) in one month and nothing has really come out of it. Just a bunch of paperwork.

I checked phone records. She really did it.

PH,

Let's see yesterday she was so nice, today she tells you she is seeing a lawyer...just for information purposes only RIGHT!

PH, you need to listen to Lexxxy, Mark, Claygal, and Barnboy. They have all danced this dance and they do know what they are talking about. You are more likely to win this battle if you become a man she has to reckon with rather than a man she can manipulate. She is counting your infatuation with her and her beauty to keep you from moving around too much. It makes you a much easier target. If you start acting and moving around, it really is hard to hit you right between the eyes.

What would you do if you did not fear? THat is what you have to ask yourself.

God Bless,

JL

PH,

Good job in keeping your cool under pressure ("never let 'em see you sweat"..... ).
Next time she pulls out any discussion on attornies, divorce, separation, splitting of possessions, ect., just tell her, " I don't do divorce. Want a potatoe chip?".... She wants you to play fair and nice, and make this as easy for HER as possible. So your mantra is "I don't do divorces".....

As for the cell phone, I don't believe those are public knowledge, but I could be wrong. Have you tried to Google her??... You might catch something that way. Or see if she has a Facebook or Myspace page......If you find nothing there, what I would do is send a Certified letter to her, with a signature required by her, letting her know you need to talk to her concerning her H. BUT until then, keep calling.

If you don't get ahold of her tonight, I would call your MIL first thing tomorrow morning.

Until then, Plan A your butt off.....

Not2fyn

PH,

It is amazing how similar our situations are. Just wanted to thank you for sharing on here and all who are supporting you becuase you are helping me too!

"I checked phone records. She really did it."

I want to check back here and see that you exposed.

See that you really did it.

If barnboy's post doesn't move you to expose, how about a stick of TNT under your butt?

I am in process of doing just that. Have called OMW's mother's house and got machine. Called OMW's phone went to VM. Still trying. W's family already knows.

Also set up face to face appt for consult w/ my own atty, so I know all my rights too.

I exposed to everyone I could reach. I never could reach the OMW. Both our families now know, all of her close GF's, whoever I could think of. Felt like I was betraying her every time but remembered she was the one who betrayed me.

Lost sight of Plan A, however, during discussion about her atty visit. It got heated and I ended up trapping her in her own words. I feel like I fell on my face with Plan A, now have to start all over again, if I have the time.

Ended up with no sleep and feeling sick this morning. Cried myself to work.

I am sure once the phone calls start today due to the exposure, that tonight won't be any better.

This really sucks. Will someone please wake me up from this nightmare!

Hang on. It's gonna be bumpy.

Don't react to the venom she will spew when she hears that you told people the truth. That's pretty much the only thing you should expect.

Other than that...

Remain calm.
Stay focused.
Take care of yourself.

Meet her ENs as much as she allows.
Avoid Love Busters.
Have no expectations.

Do NOT try to educate her, correct her thinking or fix what she says. Ignore anything you know is not the truth.

Let me repeat that so you don't miss it...

IGNORE ANYTHING that you KNOW is NOT the TRUTH...

The garbage won't weigh you down if you don't pick it up.

Refuse to carry the garbage.

Mark

Two mantras in my head help me a lot


"Don't react, respond"
meaning I don't let myself get caught up in the drama with emotional, ego based reactions. I respond with thought to all interactions as they happen

and

"(My Wayward) does not define me"
meaning I am not letting my waywards contorted, rewritten image of who I am effect what I do.

Hope these statements can help you as you go along.

>Will someone please wake me up from this nightmare!


We've all felt like this, PH. Please take care of yourself and the children in the next few days. Go to the park or something.

It gets better.

Nicely done.....

(((PH))),

Yeah it's hard.....but if you take a good look around at the recovered/recovering marriages you'll find no one here regrets it. Also, once you GET into recovery, you won't regret the fight you put forth and you will be able to hold your head high knowing that while she was destroying herself, you did all you could.

Keep trying the OMW. She is the key in exposure. You might want to start writing that letter to her if you can't get her by phone.....oh, are you blocking your number when you call?

Hang in there and get back on the horse.....I too fell off many times. The only thing you can do is dust yourself off and begin again.....and learn what not to do for the next time....

Not2fun

This just gets worse. I have found out through another source that WW has received a large (5 digit) check from OM to start new life for herself, him and my kids. Here I am struggling with our finances which she wholeheartedly contributed to. How do I compete with that?

I don't know how much more of this I can take.

You HAVE to contact his wife. Drive to that house and park yourself in front of it if you have to.

Protect your children at all costs. WW is free to go. But those kids aren't going ANYWHERE. Get yourself into an attorney pronto and find out what you need to do to file emergency protection from her removing the children.

And get some support offline from Mark or Barn or JL -- it gets very quiet here on the weekends....

Wow.

Bet OMW would be surprised by not only the affair BUT the money her H put aside for it!

Yikes!

She must be told soon.

Hoping you get a hold of her ASAP!

PH,

Whatever you do, DON'T PANIC. Do not let your fears get the best of you.

Who is this "source"? Are they reliable? Are the against this affair?? Can you trust what they have told you?!?

Also, do you have a computer at home??? If so you need to get a keylogger on there ASAP, so you can monitor what is going on in the enemies camp.....

Not2fun

The source is completely reliable and against the affair 100%.

I do have a keylogger, very little useful info. All the communication is done on the cell phone, none on computer.

I am trying to keep my composure. Trying to be the man here. I feel suckerpunched.

Why don't you cancel the cellphone? Your name is on the account right?

The account is in her name, I just pay it.

PH,

Who's your cellphone provider? I have Verizon and you can do a whole lot of things on-line and if you are the only one with access you can do it without her knowing.

I enabled call-blocking on ours to block the OM and my WW was furious. But, she's still around and has found other ways to communicate, but guess what? I can now see it with the keylogger which I couldn't do with texting or calling.

Don't be afraid to stand up! I was weak early on in my WWs A and I'm paying the price for it now. This A is wrong! Plain and simple. You fighting her to stop the A is what you need to do. And when she comes to you screaming and bellowing, be calm and tell her exactly this: "this affair is wrong. I'm going to do everything I can to protect myself and the children." Make no apologies - you don't have to. You are in the right, she is in the wrong.

Be strong. Satan is putting up a fight to destroy your family. Don't back down and always remember that the Lord is on your side.

BTW, have you read SAA yet? Remember the story? How the woman freaks out and moves out? Your WW may very well do that. Be prepared for that scenario. That's why you need to talk to an attorney pronto so that you can react lawfully if she tries to take the kids.

Good luck. BTW, what's your D-Day? It's recent right? It's going to take a while for normal sleep to return. Just do your best to get through the day.

(1)Go home and tell your kids right now. Tell them that she is making plans to take them from home and move them in with another man and leave you behind. Tell them in front of her if you have to. Do it now!

(2) Call your lawyer and request an EMERGENCY meeting for TODAY to draw up papers to get her in trouble either legally or with the police. Tell him that she is threatening to take your children away from you!

(3) Go to the bank and stop ALL processes at any of your accounts! Tell them that if they allow her to touch any account without your written permission, you will sue them. Whatever it takes.

(4) Call this POS OM up NOW and tell him he can expect to see you in court as soon as you can get a slot, for whatever your lawyer can find to do to him. Scare the crap out of him! TODAY! Nine times out of ten, creeps like this will back off if you get in their face. Your sitch may be a little different, but you have to take action today!

(5) Hire a PI today and get all the info you can on OM - to use either to expose more or to get dirt on him for court.

(6) Get a plane ticket and fly to OMW's house today and tell her what is going on. And OM, too, if he's there.

Now is NOT the time to be afraid.

The best results I've seen here are from BH's who take direct, STRONG actions to stop the affair. This is your ONLY chance; do it right.

Mark-

This is very helpful to me too as I am in similar situatino as PH. I just read your Musing Thread. Thank you!

PH-
If nothing else, you are not alone brother.

I'm no CPA, but my guess would be that that check qualifies as a loan or gift? Are you in a community property state? If so, and it's not a gift, I would think you're entitled to 1/2 of that money. If you file taxes jointly, you may be responsible for 1/2 of the taxes on it. Maybe some more financial people can weigh in here.

I do work in the legal field however, and you need to get emergency temporary orders in place like yesterday to prevent her from absconding with the kids, draining your financial resources and to make her ACCOUNT for $$.

Very interesting question, princessmeggy. Although this is not a community prop. state, I will ask my atty about it.

PH,

Are you POSITIVE this hasn't gone physical?? It seems odd that this man would send that kind of money for something that is only been happening on the phone.....it smells awfully fishy to me.......And 600 miles between them couldn't have kept them from going physical. There was 1100 miles separating my H and COW....and believe you me, there was lots of physical between them.......

I am thinking you should go visit his W. Find out what she knows. You can do this in a day.

Hang in there......you doing good

not2fun

ps.....Marks email is in his sig line.....

One more thing.....

Do you have a land line??? If so, cancel that cell phone pronto. If OM can pay for her divorce, he can pay that stinkin phone......

(and I'd also start canceling any joint CC.....)

Update, and this is big. I finally got through to OM's MIL. What a talk that was! He is a wife beater and an alcholic, unemployed, broke, ego maniac. Said the check would most definitely bounce. Professional Liar! She has begged me to have my wife call her, which after much prodding, she is doing right now!

Please, please, if you are religious, send up a prayer right now that the bubble will burst. And the fog will lift.

Thank you Mark, Barnboy and all the rest for your continued encouragement and push for exposure. If we can work this out or not, at least I know I did all I could, now its up to her.

The fat lady hasn't sung yet...

But she might be warmin' up...

Mark

My prayers are going to G-d and having his will win out...

PH, what's happening?!

My wife did call the OM's MIL and talked to her for 1-1/2 hours. She learned a lot about the OM, including he is an alcoholic and an abuser. After talking to the MIL, she then called the OM and of course he disputed it all, but W said she believes the woman.

Initially, she seemed okay albeit upset with me because the night before our oldest asked me point blank about us divorcing and if she was talking to someone else, to which I was honest. As the day wore on, she became more withdrawn. We didn't talk any more after that.

I checked the phone records, after that last conversation with OM, he sent her a text msg several hours later, to which she did not respond.

I could not have imagined being at this point last Friday. I assume I need to continue to give her space and let her come to me when she wants to talk or be close. Am I right in this thinking or do I need to be pro-active?

PH,

GREAT job on getting through to the MIL. You did ask her for contact info on OM's wife, right? If not, call her again and get that info. You still need to talk to his wife personally. You've done an amazing job so far, now nail this door shut!!!!


not2fun

I need advice on where to go from here. With all the anxiousness and anxiety of the affair and how to deal with it, I was not prepared for the abrupt collapse of it and the aftermath. She is very withdrawn today, I have talked to her a couple of times on the phone (I am at work). She's weepy and I know she is embarrassed. I want to be what she needs right now, I am still on Plan A, filling her EN's but is there anything more I should do?

We haven't talked about it at all, but per the phone records, she has not contacted OM since confronting him yesterday. He has sent a few text msgs, but she hasn't responded. I view that as good.

As to talking to the OMW, her mother said OMW was fully aware of the situation but OM was threatening her in order to keep her from leaving him. He is very abusive. I am so glad this came out before my W found this out by experience. I don't see the point in contacting the OMW now.

Thanks again to all who encouraged me to expose. That single phone call may have saved my wife years of abuse or possibly even her life. If it is ever a question of whether to expose or not, this would have never happened had I not made the call.

Let her withdraw and dislodge from the fog before making MC appointments. Practice honesty without love busters.

Check her in two weeks whether she would join you at a MB weekend? Alternatively contact the Harley's on line.

P.H., this is "good" only in the same way that if someone were shooting at you with a large-caliber, high-powered rifle, but hadn't hit you yet, that'd be "good."

It is by no means good, if your wife is being subjected to repeated attempts at contact that test her resolve at a time when her resolve is still weak.

By what means is this texting occurring? It's time to cancel the account, and/or change the number, and/or throw away the device on which the texts are being received.

You CAN block his number. It's very easy to do.

Show her a strong, silent, caring, compassionate, concerned, self-confident man with amazing morals and the ability to turn the other cheek. Let her lean on you without you bringing anything up until she's ready. Let her feel safe.

Oh, and get all your numbers changed today!

PH

""I need advice on where to go from here.""

Your wife is, yes, humiliated, scared, confused, horrified at her actions, her fantasy dream has been shattered, her future as she imagined is now gone and reality is setting in.

You become her rock to cling to in this flood of emotions. Your love for her and your PLAN Aing even more than before will be her refuge and lighthouse in this storm of emotions. (we might have too many emotion metaphors here )

NO RELATIONSHIP talk. Loving support, kind words, hugs if OK with her. Smile and be happy (which you are ) Get the kids to plan A too.

Cash the check before he puts a stop payment on it!!

""saved my wife years of abuse or possibly even her life. ""

Does your wife realize this??

Good job, stay strong and be her rock.

kirk

Absolutely. That phone number has to be changed. Now. No good will come from having that line of communication available to the two of them.

PH,

What do you mean you are filling her EN's? What specifically are you doing? What are her top 3 EN's (if you had to guess)?

Plan A us exactly what you need to be doing. Do remember Marks's rules for Plan A?.....here's a refresher

1. Advoiding all Love Buster's
2. Meet top EN's
3. NO ECPECTATIONS

I highlighted the third one for a reason. Because right now while she is going through WD, she is going to be a pain in the kesher. She will be moody, tempermental, weepy, bi-chy, and sullen. The good thing is it won't last forever. The worst will be these first 3weeks, with the last of it coming at an end in 6 weeks. But during this time she is going to test your resolve. ESPECIALLY, since she won't be meeting much of your EN's.

During this time, spend as much time with her doing RC, conversation (but not any relationship/affair/OM/marriage talks....), affection as possible.

Take her out, doing fun things. Comedy clubs, movies, shopping (Christmas is right around the corner ya know), errand running, bowling, mini-golf all fit the bill. It doesn't have to heavy duty romantic, but it does need to be fun.

Tonight, stop by the store and pick up her favorite dessert. Just because. Put the kids to bed a little early, and watch a favorite show or movie together. Or play Yahtzee.......

Give her a foot massage. Offer to help with the dishes. Tomorrow morning you could set out her favorite mug with a note underneath it saying "Have a good day"...,.TM her and let her know you are thinking of her.....do the little things that should have been dine before but got lost in way of life......

Now, as Dee said, get that number blocked. Call the phone company today and do it. This is vital. Also, see if she is willing to write a NC letter to him.......

Be her hero!!!!!

Not2fun

PH,

Been a couple of days since we've heard from you...

Wazup?

Right now, I am just doing what I can to spend time with her. She has been quite emotional, which was to be expected.

We haven't discussed the situation hardly at all, if it comes up, she is the one that brings it up and I don't comment very much.

I know her love language is touch so when I get a chance, I give her a neck massage, a gentle touch as we pass or a hug when I can. Neither of us has said "I Love You" yet at bedtime or on the phone like we used to but I hope that comes soon, I need to hear it. We rented a movie last night after the kids were down and she did seem to lighten up.

I am meeting her for lunch today and I have asked her to think about us going out for dinner and a movie this weekend, something we haven't done in over a year. She did sound interested in the prospect. I plan to keep it light.

I don't want to rush anything but I don't want to miss any opportunities either. How am I doing? Any tips from the veterans?

PH,

Sounds like you are doing HANDSOMELY!!

No R talk, unless she wants to...check.

Casual neck messages and hugs.....check.

Keeping it light....check.

Going out to dinner and a movie..........check.

Why not tell her you love her when you say goodnight or hang up the phone??? You do love her, correct??

I don't think this would be relationship talk. I don't think it would hurt.

No need to rush, or push, or gush or nash your teeth. Keep it light. Be her loving refuge and her rock.

Smile alot.

Good job.

kirk

We talked about watching the same movie again tonight (she obviously liked it), it things go as well tonight, I may lay an "I Love You" on her at bed time and see what happens.

Her withdrawal is tough, and I do love her, very much, but she has admitted that circumstances caused the breakup, not a loss of feelings for the OM, so that takes time to heal.

I am just going to be what she needs me to be right now and slowly work myself back in as the man of her life, doing the things that I know she is attracted to, such being a fun-loving Dad to my kids, being happy and upbeat; and listening intently when she talks. I love the prospect of "courting" her again.

I do think we need to see a counselor, perhaps she needs to see one sooner to help her through the WD. And the issues we were facing that allowed her to enter this affair must be addressed before we can get to far along. Is it time to bring that up?

If you do say, remember....NO EXPECTATIONS. Say because you WANT her to know your feelings, not because you are expecting her to say it in return. Yes, it will hurt if she doesn't, but know in your heart of hearts that she is not your W right now. She is still a very foggy wayward....


This is so very true. Hurts like madness, but it is true. It doesn't mean that her fellings for you cannot return though......and as her feelings for OM fades, she will become more receptive to you....


This is a GREAT attitude to have. It will get you far in the next coming weeks...Figure out what her top EN'S are and do something EVERY day to fulfill them somehow....


Can you swing some counseling with the Harley's? I know they are steep but worth every penny. With other counselor's, you may not know what you end up with, which may end up being wasted $. I would bring this up ASAP. Maybe sometime this weekend. Tell her how you love her, how you want to have a great marriage and future with her and that you two need help in dealing with this pain. You don't want to do this full of LB'S, but with a gentleness and love.

Now......are you sure NC is being maintained?? I hope you are still watching that phone bill. Have you blocked that number yet??? Your wife is at her most vunerable right now. One slip up in contact, and you will be starting right back at square one....

The date night is LONG over due......make sure it happens....


your doing wonderful......

not2fun

I would wait till you get some indication that she is recommitting to the marriage before bringing up counseling. She's not ready for it yet, hasn't realized that she is staying with you and has no real reason to fix the marriage yet.

IC for you and maybe for her might be worth the effort but marriage counseling needs to be focused on fixing the marriage and she isn't ready to do that yet. Maybe a time or two split 50/50 with the Harleys, but I wouldn't waste a lot of time worrying about counseling yet.

She might need to see her doctor to check into antidepressants if her mood stays too low for very long. My wife got the script but never used the things.

PH, you should also keep in mind that as she enjoys herself more and more with you, her moods will begin to improve a lot. She is mourning (yeah, that sucks, I know...) but as she begins to re-engage you in the relationship, a lot of that will fade rapidly.

Even when you do begin working on the relationship issues, always make the majority of your time together fun and upbeat. Spend much more time being together than you do fixing stuff. If every conversation is about the affair, she won't want to be together very much and frankly, neither will you. You didn't get here in a couple of weeks and you won't get to where you need to be in that long either. You've been running at full speed in opposite directions for probably years. It is going to take a while to get completely back together again, even if you run. So remember that it is a marathon and not a sprint or you'll burn out before you reach your goal.

Recovery takes two years or more. Examine progress over weeks instead of days and months instead of weeks. Look back at the six month mark and you'll be amazed at how far you've come. At some point you'll hit a place where things will go along smoothly for several days at a time and then there will be a blow up of some kind. Remember these words when that day comes so you will not be set back but merely see it as a speed bump on the road to recovery.

Some days you will spend a lot of time contemplating what might be different if you had let her go and gotten a divorce. Realize that this too is normal and that it will pass as well.

If you reach the point where both of you are meeting each others ENs and all Love Busters have been vanquished from your marriage, you will find that a lot of the problems that seemed so large in the beginning will seem so minor that they will actually take care of themselves. Many things you find extremely important today will hardly even be recalled at some point, if you are making real progress as a couple, working together as a couple and spending time together as a couple.

If you could spend the money it takes to attend the MB weekend and if you want to make the best possible investment in your marriage, that would be the thing to do. That one thing could do so much more than years of counseling. But leave that for later, again realizing that you need her to be fully engaged in the marriage before you can even try to work on the hard bits. Fix the easy stuff you don't need help with as fast as you can (your side of the deal here); make the marriage better than it ever was and then look into the MB weekend to make it awesome.

Good job, PH!

Mark

P_H,

""but she has admitted that circumstances caused the breakup, not a loss of feelings for the OM, so that takes time to heal.""

If I may, this is such total fogged out bull pucky. The CIRCUMSTANCES are that the OM is actually a low life scum bag that was trying to lure her into his web of brutality and control.

The loss of feelings is for an OM THAT WAS NEVER REAL.

The OM she has the feelings for is BAIT

Bait for the trap she was ready to enter.

She does not realize that you saved her life??

Of course all of the above would be a supreme lovebuster, but if she still keeps this 'CIRCUMSTANCES' defense, maybe you could slip that BAIT word in there. In a nice way.

CIRCUMSTANCES!!??? "WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING CIRCUMSTANCES!!"

IMHO

kirk

Thanks for all the encouragement and advice!

Not2, Yes I have blocked the number and also blocked the email address. Our home # is unlisted and she has promised it was never given to him.

Mark, I hear what you are saying about measuring the progress, even though the intensity of her depression appears to ease with each day, I know it is still very present in her mind.

I am going to plan a night out for us this weekend and next week we are going on a family trip out of state to visit extended family for the holiday, which will put us 100% together for several days.

I just want to keep things positive however I can. We do have some negatives to discuss, such as our financial situation, but I am hopeful getting her involved in that will help us find more ways to work together.

Instead of looking at finances as something negative, why not turn it into a positive? Sign up for Quicken Online (it's free) or Dave Ramsey's program, and sit down together and work out your plan for financial security. It is very empowering!

I'll vouch for the Dave Ramsey program.

Financial Peace University

We have run the series at our church a couple of times and will be doing it again in the near future. Among other benefits will be the ability to retake the course at a later date as a refresher without having to pay for the materials again.

Mark

ETA: As an example, of the 14 couples who took the course when my wife and I did, over $30K in unsecured debt was eliminated during the time we took the course by all of the couples combined. Nobody got a raise during that time either...

PatientHusband,

I know how you feel! Being "fixers" as we men are, it's really hard to accept that we have very little influence over "clearing the fog from WW's head". It does suck and it is not fair, but it is true.

You have NO DIRECT INFLUENCE at all. I learned this the hard way (pre-MB). Trying to reason, convince, counsel, advise, sweet-talk, morally-persuade, or guilt her does NO GOOD. Too much 'relationship talk' and being a begging-doormat actually pushes her to the OM. I made all the of these mistakes out of a desperate attempt to "make things right"...it DOESN'T WORK EVER!

The only productive influences you have are indirect ones--the carrot-and-stick of Plan A and by removing yourself from her support-system in Plan B.

I wish you well, but you are in for a long haul in even the best of circumstances. WWs are very, very difficult because they usually see their affair-partner as a REPLACEMENT rather than an add-on to their marriage...I'm so sorry.

Update - Need some advice.

We went on a 5 day trip out of town, me, my wife and the kids. It did us good to be together for all that time, away from our home environment. Although we were there to see family, we spent a lot of time at the hotel and shopping, basically just spending time together.

Even though it was not planned and an hour before would not have seemed possible, we found ourselves being intimate for the first time in months. To me it was spectacular. By the next morning, she said what happened may have happened too soon for her. She says she doesn't feel what we did (that night) was wrong, but I think she might have had a thought of him during the moment and that bothered her. She told me her emotions are still raw and she is still trying to get it all figured out. She did tell me the next day that she loved me and the look she always gave me was back.

I know the feelings she is having for the OM are gradually fading, she does not know what to do with them. She knows she doesn't see a future with him now but says there are still feelings there she doesn't know how to handle. This is still clouding her head and preventing her from fully giving 110% to rebuilding our relationship.

I feel we are on the threshold of getting over this, but we have to get over these lingering feelings she is having for the OM. I can't really find in SAA where Dr. Harley explains how to deal with this other than its part of the grief process. We are starting the third week since the "revelation" of who the OM really is. What do I need to be doing to help her through this? Do I ask her to read SAA at this point?

We can't afford the Harley's fees at this point. Should I recommend that she see the counselor she was seeing a month ago that told her at that time she could do no more to help? The counselor was pro-family/pro-marriage, but admitted that until a decision was made, she couldn't offer anything more.

Otherwise, I am still being the supportive husband and father. We haven't discussed relationship talk except for a couple of times just before leaving on this trip and obviously soon after our trist Thanksgiving night.

Find some NEW habits and rituals and things to do together that are yours and yours alone. Do things that make her feel like you're dating again. That's where the chemicals kick in, and she'll start to feel warm fuzzies for you instead of those she felt for him.

Shake things up so she looks forward to being with you and knows that it'll be good times.

Quoted For Truth (QFT). It keeps getting better, but my FWW clearly has lingering feelings for OM periodically (4 months out from D-Day). The keys are:
* Minimum 15 hours per week of undivided attention (UA)... preferably more for those in recovery from infidelity.
* Avoid all Love Busters (LBs).
* Meet her top Emotional Needs (ENs).

She will fall in love with you again if you do this consistently and avoid Love Bank withdrawals.

PH,

If all goes well, you'll be working at this for a couple of years yet.

I don't say that to dash your hopes, only to reset your expectations. You will likely not ever again have to deal with anything that is so emotionally draining, psychologically perplexing and mentally demanding. It will be the most difficult thing you have ever done or ever will do in your entire life.

That said, it does get better with time. Yet, you just have to trust me on this, she will be over it before you will, unless something catastrophic happens that sets her back. Your good days will give you hope. Your bad days will make you wonder if it's all worth it.

Barnboy's analysis is spot on, BTW. While that sounds just like Plan A, it is really the way a MB marriage happens. Ideally she will at some point begin using MB methods and applying them to the marriage as well and that is when things will become better than ever before.

Even those who don't fully embrace MB can learn the process of meeting ENs, avoiding Love Busters etc. UA time can be demonstrated to be of value. Meeting ENs and avoiding LBs can be shown to make a difference. POJA can be demonstrated. Even when the FWS is not fully engaged in MB, the process works and if it can be explained what you are doing then your wife may follow your lead.

Eventually, it works much better if you are both totally on board with MB, but at least at first you doing the things MB teaches can go a long way toward getting her to buy in.

Hang in there. It gets better, but beware having high expectations for everything to get to where it needs to be in a hurry. Unmet expectations will be the hardest thing for YOU to overcome.

Mark

PH,

""She says she doesn't feel what we did (that night) was wrong, but I think she might have had a thought of him during the moment and that bothered her. She told me her emotions are still raw and she is still trying to get it all figured out.""

Your wife should be embarrased and humiliated that this low life scum bucket was trying to lure her into his brutal and controling web. BUT SHE SHOULD ALSO BE FURIOUS and DETEST THE A**!OLE!!

I don't understand her foggy lingering on him. She BELIEVES and UNDERSTANDS that he is an alcoholic wife beater, correct?

She should be very relieved that you all found out when you did.

Is she in denial that she was such a tool?

kirk

Since the information came from the OM's mother in law, she discounts a lot of it but she knows there is enough truth there to show he was not being honest with her and was not someone she could trust or ever subject our kids to.

I know she felt strongly about him and those feelings don't just evaporate, even with news of his deception. I also know she realizes just how timely the information came and why I did it. The fog is lifting a little at a time, she just wants to be able to give her all to working on US and is trying to figure out how she is supposed to handle these other emotions so she CAN give it her all.

I understand what Mark was saying, I saw a brief moment of what WE can be again but I have to channel my expectations back because this will take time. I know these feelings she has for the OM will eventually fade, I just needed to know what I can do to help her with that.

Catperson mentioned earlier today finding a new wrinkle that is just between me and her, any suggestions on what that new something might be? I am game for anything!

Did I ever supply you my ideas list? You can pick something off of it, or supply your own:
Read a book together
Take turns picking out a movie to watch
Bring out the board games, at least once a week
Start a solitaire club with some neighbors or friends, play solitaire against each other one night a week or month
Start gardening together
Grow herbs/vegetables/fruits
Take walks
Start a sport together; take classes at a community college, such as racquetball or volleyball
Get bikes and start riding bikes together
Sign up for an MS 150 and train for the bike ride all year
Plan some day trips, start taking one every month
Try out one new restaurant every week, take turns choosing and surprising the other with it
Go to bookstore and get a book like �52 great invitations to sex� in which you both have 26 invitations for a special evening to invite the other one, and you set it up, give the other the invitation (included in book) and then put on the evening
Join an online gaming community together (but don�t get addicted!)
Buy a Wii or Guitar Hero and play together
Give each other foot rubs
Take massage class together and practice giving each other massages
Go back to school together
Get a pet, take it to obedience school and learn to train it (if applicable)
Join a neighborhood dinner club or other club
Volunteer together
Join a church or get more involved in your church
Take a cooking class together and take turns cooking for each other
Go to HGTV.com and pick out a project to do for your house together
Take free classes at Home Depot on how to fix something at your house
Start a business together
Organize a block party
Organize a family reunion
Start working with a financial planner or learn about stocks together
Take dancing lessons together; if you like it, start entering in competitions
Go online for your city and look up 'activities' and 'family' and maybe even 'free' if your city is big enough; subscribe to those websites and go there every month to look for upcoming activities you can all do together; you can find plays, music events, art things, sports things, picnics, etc.

Cat, these are great! I am thrilled to see some of the things I have started already are on your list, makes me feel like I am doing some things right for a change.

Thanks for your help! - PH

Just dropping a note of support. As a new member, I tried to PM you, but found those are disable!

I'm checking out this site because a friend sings it's praises- and came across your story. I can't give any advice on how or what to do as it seems the MB plans of action seem remarkably different than those that I have experience and belief in-- at least as far as an affair crisis goes.

But, I did want to say that you're an amazingly strong and patient person, and your dedication to your wife is wonderful. I wish the both of you the best of luck!

Nicki
Decembrr@wildblue.net

Thanks for the encouragement Nicki. All I can say is my girl is worth it. I know the real her and she is slowly but surely coming back around. She got caught up in a snare of lies and empty promises at a time when life was hitting us hard as a family.

When I said my vow to her all those years ago, I truly meant it being for life. D is not an option for me. My kids deserve to have examples of parents who can work through even the worst of issues and I am determined to be that for them.

I have studied several different theories of how to save a relationship in cases like this and Dr. Harley's is by far the best I found. His book Surviving An Affair is great but this forum and the absolutely wonderful people who contribute such wisdom on a daily, sometimes hourly, basis is what really got me to this point. These guys are my heroes! I can only hope that I can someday help someone else through issues like this in a positive way through examples of folks like Mark and crew.

Talking with folks who have been through this is the only real support you can get, friends and family mean well and give good advice, but until you have felt the pain and despair caused by a WS, you can't truly understand what the BS is going through.

PatientHusband,

I was the BS 14+ years ago, though my husband's affair went far beyond that of an EA. I think the emotional aspect of the affairs is the hardest to recover from in many ways, though. I know all too well what the BS goes through, unfortunately. It pains both myself and my husband to see anyone else suffer through that now.

A great support system is amazing! Something that I wish I'd had way back then. I had family and friends that were well meaning, but not very understanding and helpful when it came to reconciling and rebuilding a great marriage. It's truly a gift for so many people to have that!

Keep your chin up-- your dedication will get you through!

Nicki

""Since the information came from the OM's mother in law, she discounts a lot of it ""

Is there a brother or sister of the OM's wife you BOTH could talk to? A police blotter or rap sheet on the guy you could get ahold of? A neighbor of the OM??

The thing is she probably doesn't want to hear anymore bad things about the low life.

kirk

Kirk, you are exactly right, she doesn't want to hear anymore and to tell you the truth, I don't think it would help any to bring more up right now. Yes I have an ex-wife's email and phone number plus neighbors, former step-parents, co-workers, etc. OM's MIL was very forthcoming to say the least. I could build quite a case if I needed to, but for now, I don't want to even bring him up.

I am concentrating on being 100% positive, showing her I am still the man she fell in love with all those years ago. I am actually enjoying romancing her again because its building up those love bank units for both her and myself.

If I have to go back to that arsenal, I have it but for now, I don't think its necessary.

I dislike your choice of words, but there is a lot of truth in them.

My WW and I signed and notarized a legal Separation Agreement. Five copies. Three stayed with my attorney and one for each of us.

I handed her her copy and she asked me, "Is there anything in there that is going to hurt me?"

"Huh?" Said I. "You read it. You signed it."

"But I didn't understand some of the things in it."

This from a woman who once worked as a legal assistant.

Fog. Fog. Fog.

PH,

My wife had a 3 year PA with an OM she met in a chat room. Emails I discovered were I love you this and I love you that.

Over 5 years out from our Dday and she DISPISES THE SNAKE. She hates him with a passion and blames him for luring her into the A. Only wants to forget the bassat.

""I am actually enjoying romancing her again because its building up those love bank units for both her and myself.""

She will be soon be feeling the same towards the OM.

Stay strong and positive my friend. I am sure she is still going through WITHDRAWAL, so it will only get better with your attitude.

kirk

What are the thoughts/experiences of this group on letting my wife read SAA at this point? Would that be the equivalent of letting the other team see my playbook or would it be something we could work on together? Specifically the last half of the book that concerns withdrawal from the OM & marital recovery. Since it has only been just over two weeks, is it too early?

Should I just start with printing out the Emotional Needs Questionairre for both of us to fill out?

PH,

I think her reading the book would be good. Now, I wouldn't tell her about these forums, as that would be giving up your play book. If she finds them on her own, then we will help you deal with that then. I would "educate" her on her NEED to read the book though. Leave it somewhere around the house. If she picks it up, great. If not, don't worry about it. If she asks you about it then just be honest...." I picked this up and read it because I love you and I knew our marriage was in trouble. I needed to find out what was going on....."....then if she if she is open to it tell her what you learned about yourself... Keep the focus on you, not on what she needs to do.

IMO, things are progressing well. You are very early in this process. Keep up the good work

not2fun

PH,

""on letting my wife read SAA at this point""

My only thought is that "LETTING" your wife read the book does kinda go against the "not talking relationship talk" mantra for right now.

Plan A your A off and be the best darn husband you can be right now. Until the withdrawal is done.

Please realize she really is going through withdrawal. Like a crack head withdrawing from the pipe and an alchy withdrawing from the bottle.

Maybe another month.

Of course if you are reading it and leave it laying around for her to pick up....well that's a different kettle.

kirk

I fully admit I don't know the reasons behind the secrecy of the "playbook" or recovery strategies-- specifically in regards to the MB philosophy, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt in regards to that.

And I keep seeing the no relationship talk warning-- so I probably shouldn't even be speaking now... LOL

BUT-- if you have some need to keep your 'playbook' secret, yet you do want to leave something out and about for her to find... could you look into another book that perhaps has the same underlying philosophy behind it, but that isn't a play by play of your attack? For instance, from what I gather, a lot of MB philosophies are shared...maybe just changed with flowered up language.

A good book addressing situations exactly like yours is one from Shirley Glass: Not "Just Friends". Gaining the enlightenment from that book helped my FWS understand the "bones" of an affair...what it was and what it wasn't-- and what *those feelings* meant and what they didn't. Further, it explains why affairs happen even within happy marriages... in marriages where "love banks" are overflowing even, according to the MB's prevention tactics.

I'm still reading and trying to see the enlightenment within MB tactics-- I just can't seem to get past the typical prevention myths that come out in many of the articles and advice. I may have not just gotten to the right stuff, yet, so don't hang me yet.

I just know there wasn't any delayed wallowing in fog, let alone extended withdrawal type behavior, with my FWS after there was real understanding of the hows and whys of affairs were understood and "prevention" and "monogamy myths" were dispelled. A 'secret tactic' or playbook wouldn't have gone over well for him, but that may be a case of 'to each his own.'

A second book we really liked was The Monogamy Myth by Peggy Vaughan. But it was the first book by Glass that really helped my FWS see how, despite a very good marriage, he found himself in an affair. Affairs don't just happen in 'bad' marriages, or marriages where "love units" are bankrupt--

Anyway- take with a grain of salt... because this violates that no relationship talk that I keep seeing mentioned. That tactic just wouldn't have worked in our situation-- but it must in others or so many wouldn't be warning about it!

Be strong, PatientHusband.

Nicki
Decembrr@wildblue.net

Nicki,

THE NO RELATIONSHIP TALK advice is for the BS that is Plan Aing and trying to be the best spouse, friend, companion, etc., that person can be.

A BS constantly talking about the "relationship" and do you love me? what can I do so that your will love me? Why don't you love me.....ALL THE TIME comes across as very needy, wimpy, clingy, and UNATTRACTIVE to the WS who is still in withdrawal from his/her fantasy.

So the folks here in the halls of MB advise staying away from the relationship talk. Be happy, endearing, charming, attractive and positive in your interaction with the WS specially during the withdrawal period.

When the withdrawal is over THEN working on improving the M and communication and boundarys and the rest of the relationship can begin.

imho

kirk

Hi Guys,
Been away for a while, needed to come back for a refresher course in Plan A'ing.

For an update - Things are still okay, we are nearly 4 months since last contact w/ OM. She is still low a lot of the time, wants us to move to a new place (even though financially not possible right now). She has engaged herself in helping a girlfriend of hers work on her new relationship, meaning she's out of the house for a good part of the weekend when I am home. This includes at times staying over the night at the friends. Don't get the wrong idea, OM is not in picture, I have checked on that, but she seems to be engrossing herself in someone elses problems instead of working on ours.

Relationship wise, we seem to have plateaued (sp?). We are initimate often, but it is I who initiates it. In fact, in the affection department, I initiate it all. It has started to bother me about how much doesn't come back my way. I have suggested going to a weekend marriage conference but she is not willing at this point.

What do I need to be doing now, 4 months into this? I am driving myself crazy wondering about it all. When will the lovebank deposits start to work? Its hard being the loving husband but not feeling the love back, in fact its extremely hurtful.

Just need some reassurance I guess.

Thanks,
PH

PH,

Good to see you back. Sorry things are not moving along better. My suggestion speak with the Harley's abou this. My thought is to set a date in the future to reevaluate the situation and see if there is any progress in the marriage. Look for the "baby steps". If there is none, then I think you should consider another alternative and I think the Harley's can offer you some good ideas on this.

Recovery of the marriage can take a long time. The fog and withdrawal can take a long time especially for a long term affair. However, eventually YOUR love bank will run dry and when that happens, if she is not carrying her weight in the marrage the marriage will probably be over.

Please call the Harleys and see what they recommend.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL,
Things are much better now than 4 months ago, and I do think she is beginning to come out of withdrawal to some degree. I may get impatient at times but the hugs are getting tighter and she is starting to seem happier to hear from me when I call from work or when I get home. I do still have trust issues, and I can't shake that.

Has anyone had any experience with the Weekend to Remember Conferences? One is coming to our town in May and I was hoping to get her to go.

PH,

Our church has 10 couples going to the W2R in Oakbrook Illinois this time around. Last fall we had 14 couples that went to the one in the NW suburbs. All reported that it was a great eyeopener, especially the husbands.

Mark

I need some help guys. Its been nearly 5 months since NC. My wife tells me she is extremely unhappy with where we live, to the point that she does not want to really work on our relationship until we can move to a better place physically. (We live in a rural area, she grew up in the city). We have had financial issues for years to the point that we really can't move right now. I have recently gotten a very nice promotion at my job that in the long run, should allow us to restore our credit and hopefully be able to move in a year or so, but right now, there's no way. She would really like to move back closer to her aging parents and siblings, which by the way is in the same state (and nearby to) the OM.

I am still trying to be the loving, supportive husband, but she appears so miserable and blames it all on where we live. She has never been a "housekeeper" but for the last 9 months or so, she has done absolutely nothing to contribute to cleaning the house, cook or even do the laundry. The time she used to spend talking to the OM, she now spends surfing Facebook or talking to a girlfriend. She is home with my kids all day, its a small house, so I can understand some of her frustration, but I would hope she could find a way to cope. I am currently doing what I can, basically keeping the dishes washed adn the clothes cleaned but I can't keep up with the kids rooms and toys and the rest of the housework. I am hoping this is just due to her depression.

I have checked, she is not talking the OM on FB or any other way that I have found so I don't think that is an issue right now, but her showing me affection, at times, feels forced on her end. I guess I just thought things would start feeling more "normal" by now. Am I just not giving it enough time? I know she is still coming out of the fog and I don't want to be impatient.

I would love to call the Harleys about this, but I can't afford it yet. I need a strategy. This lady is my everything, I have a chance to keep her and I don't want to blow it.

Somethings up now. We have taken a serious step backwards. I found where she has been looking at the Facebook page of the OM's daughter. This is one of the names I made her block on FB but there is a variation in spelling so she was able to sneak this one by. I asked her about it, she said she was just curious but has had absolutely no contact with her or OM. We then got into another heated discussion about how she has not yet committed to our marriage or working on it. She still refuses any marriage conferences, doesn't wear my rings, etc. She said moving first is her priority and maybe everything else will fall into place after that. She has finally said just moving to the city will be okay for now, not necessarily moving to another state.

I am working on that now. If if means having to declare bankruptcy to unload this debt and free up enough $$$ to afford a lease that is what I will do in the short term.

But is it possible for her to put all these feelings on hold or do you think there is still contact? I am reluctant to put another keylogger on as she found the other one. She is computer savvy. Cell records are clean. If she is contacting him, its through FB or email only. Her family is suspect also. They are still 100% on my side but feel her complaining about the $$$ and where we live is a smoke screen to give her a more justified reason for ditching me.

I don't know what to think anymore. We haven't been intimate in a few weeks now. Is it possible the fog hasn't truly cleared after 6 months with no contact? Even if she has managed to put her mind on other things and avoid the thought of it?

If you have been meeting all her EN's and not LBing and she is still not warming up to you something is wrong. Maybe she really is depressed which would mean she needs counseling and possibly medication, is it possible. Maybe she is withdrawal, have you read the basic concepts where it talks about the four states of mind in a M and how to coax a spouse out of withdrawal? That might be a good next step if you have not. You do say that she is computer savvy though so I think it is very possible that she is still in contact with OM in ways that you have not discovered yet.

I wish I had the wisdom that the vets have to be able to help you, I just wanted to let you know that you had been heard and that your concern seems justified to me. Something doesnt seem quite right, and looking at OM's daughters FB is definately not right. Hopefull someone more knowledgeable than me will come along and help you out. I am sorry you are going through this.

Just a guess, but it doesn't sound like your wife is over the OM yet. I doubt that NC has really been in effect for 6 months.

Looking at pics of children is a sure sign that she is trying to get her fix - maybe she isn't talking to him directly or maybe she is, but checking him out online whether it be Facebook, email or even looking at his kids's stuff is breaking the No Contact agreement. This will keep her from being able to get through withdrawal and into reconciliation.

It sounds to me that she is still foggy.

At some point, these WW have to really decide to commit to their marriage. I know the frustrations of always having to snoop. Everytime you find something and confront them, then they find another way to keep in contact (phones at work, emails at work, friends cell phones, etc).

Your wife will have to give him up completely in order to move closer to you. That means stop checking up on him on FB, internet, his kids, the newspaper, asking his friends...everything.

Did I go too far? She was upset with me today when she discovered I had deleted pictures from the cell phone of the OM's kids. I couldn't believe she was mad at me about that. That escalated when she informed me that she was considering taking the kids and trying a separation for the summer. I exploded back about her running out instead of helping me work the situation out so we could ALL be happy. Currently we are not speaking and in separate rooms. I don't know where we go from here. Any quick suggestions on how to turn this around?

PH, I can surely understand why you did that. It is a LB though. You also said you 'exploded' back which sounds like an angry outburst. I'm assuming you are trying to Plan A???

Shake it off and move on. Don't engage if you are angry, even if you are justified in your anger (which I think you were). You cannot force a wayward to do anything. You can't educate them to change either. All you can do is try to meet her needs as best you can, don't LB, and be consistent.

Thanks Limbo, I just hope this wasn't her last straw. Things have been very tense for a week now and my frustration finally hit a breaking point after that revelation.

I'd give anything to take it all back now. Hard to restrain in the heat of it though.

Hopefully tomorrow will offer a better day.

I understand that you feel the OM is out of the picture, but is this verifiable? I'm no expert on withdrawal, as my WS is still actively involved w/OM. 9 months seems pretty long from what I've read.

Was there a NC letter composed by both of you and sent? Something seems to be missing here. Are you guys spending lots of time together in a positive way? I understand you may not be able to afford calling the coaching center, but has she read any books or material from the website?

It just sounds like she hasn't let go of the OM completely. I hope Mark or somebody else with more experience can help figure it out.