Hey, I'm formally ShatteredGlass. Back story was that I had discovered my husband had been cheating on me. He admitted and confessed to sleeping with prostitutes for the last 3-5 years of our 14 year marriage; we have 5 children. Story however keeps changing. And come to find out this has been going unbeknownst to me since year one, the cheating. As to who or what he has been cheating with I still have no true clue because the story never stays the same. So throw out the policy of radical honesty.... Basically I have been married to a man who I thought I was married to, as in more than on legal paper, who was living a lie and enjoying the benefits of what?, you fill in the blank. We are in counseling. I am in counseling. We are still together. This is very complicated and messed up, no doubt. He wants to remain in the marriage and claims he loves me. He also claims he's going to commit to this relationship and for the better for both of us. I however remain on the fence. I mean the question keeps rolling through my mind, how can I love a man I don't know and who has exploited me? Anyone take a stab at answering that question, please feel free. Like I said I'm on the fence as to if we should remain married. I'm also on the fence as to what's best for these kids, our 5. Has anyone stayed for the kids until they were grown enough to be on there own? And then left. Can any good come from the two of us remaining in the same household amicably getting along to raise them? We rarely fight and for the most part have always gotten along. Nope, I never saw this happening; left me feeling dazed and confused. And then there is this issue of him wanting to stay married for different reasons than me. I don't know what I will end up deciding on that one. But I have been honest with him about my possibly staying until the kids are grown. Please weigh in, thank you!

Thanks for calling in Shatterglass. I've been wondering where the old faithfuls went to.

At a shot, I would say that your taker needs to kick in a bit more strongly. Have you worked out a good set of boundaries? Or considered Plan B?

Alice,
Get him to take a polygraph. Then at least you will know what you are dealing with. I wouldn't make a single decision until I had the entire truth.

I am thinking polygraph will be the logical way to see what you are dealing with here.

Of course you are dazed and confused. Darn it! You are human!

I think you might be right with boundaries. Help me see if this would be a start on the right track, please.

During our marriage he would go to bed dirty. Now not the kind of dirty you get from plain daily activities but, the kind of dirty you get from working in a factory. I have never liked that and had told him on many occasions. Shortly after D-Day I told him I wanted him to stop doing that. He complied reluctantly and with much complaint for a very short period of time. He no longer complies.

During our marriage he wouldn't have anything to do with the finances, regardless of the fact he was the sole person bringing in the income. He left it to me to make sure the bilss got paid and food brought into the house. But I would have to fight for, or grab at, the money as it came in to do this. Because he wouldn't tell me where he was spending the money or how much or when he was spending it. So I had to develop what I call a cushion system, at one point twoards D-day I had a cushion system of a $1,000 for him to draw upon. This created much stress and headache to keep up with getting things paid on time or at all. Again shortly after D-day I told him that he must sit down and help develop a budget and then stick to it. That lasted one session and the budget wasn't stuck to.

Related to the above I told him I must have reciepts for everything he spends or wherever he uses the card. He has loosely complied to this. Meaning he at the beginning was pretty good at following through but since then it's more like an oops I forgot here and there.

Since he claims his wandering ways happened away from home I told him that he has to be accountable for all of his where-abouts. He needs to leave at an exact time and show back up at an expected time. He needs to follow an agreed route and not deviate from it. And he needs to be accountable by reporting his mileage to help prove the above is said true. He has reluctantly agreed but sticking to and reporting has been spotty at best. Recently he came to me and blamed the situation that we were in was going to cause me to be mad but his employer needs him to clock in 15 minutes earlier, so he needs to leave earlier. Really?? Not! I told him, his employer would have to tell me this.

These are a few examples. Am I on the right track? What do I do if he doesn't respect and follow through?

I agree a polygraph might help. I am sad to have to go this route but I do see your point and have given it much thought. I will suggest it to him and bring it up in counseling. However wouldn't it be responsible for him to follow through with this and iniate setting up the poly? Or would this be asking to much? Shouldn't he be responsible for proving his actions are now on the up and up? I mean why should I have to chase him around like a mom or the relationship police, am I making sense?

I see two kinds of cheaters on this board. One is the spouse who was basically a decent person and then begins to cheat--for them cheating is abnormal behavior--it's out of character.

The other kind is a person who cheats and lies as an integral part of their character--for them NOT to cheat or lie is abnormal behavior.

Unless this second kind of cheater has a major "wake up" moment--I'm talking struck down on the road to Damascus here--my personal belief is that it is hopeless to have a personal relationship of any kind with this person--friendship, romantic, etc. That is because they don't play by a decent person's rules and it puts the decent person at a constant disadvantage in that relationship. There is no security or reciprocity and that is what relationships are all about.

You ask why you would love someone like this. That's a very logical question and if I were you, I would pay close attention to the first thing that pops into your head when you ask yourself that question.

You do have a lot invested with this man. Five kids, fourteen years. That's hard to walk away from. Maybe it doesn't seem so bad if there's financial support and he's fairly amiable. But look down the road a bit. Is your marriage the kind of marriage you want your grandkids to be raised in because that's what your kids see as a normal marriage? Is this the man you want in charge of your ventilator if you should ever end up on life support?

I believe in the KISS principle. Let the card have minimum cash. All withdrawals will be printed. Give him a phone that has the texts printed (he doesn't have to know). Keylog him.

He must give you his phone on demand. GPS the car. He has not earned your trust. But the question is - is he worth it?

If he can't follow through this early in the game you're going to have a LONG DIFFICULT R. You need to establish consequences that go along with your boundaries. He'll probably try to creep over every single one to see what you'll do. And if you don't DO anything, he will do what he has always done. His behavior won't change until he feels discomfort enough TO change.

So what I'm saying here is what is your line in the sand? What can you live with? You can't change his behavior, only he can and he won't unless YOU draw the line and stick by it.

I'd write down EVERYTHING that you need from him. From bills to transparencies. It is on him to abide and on you to keep your boundaries.

Just look at his history and current bahaviors. Looks like the consequences will have to be enough to make him WANT to change. And in my mind the willingness to walk away is the only one that'll help him get there.

Have you read up on all the principles here? Particularly POJA?

The moment I found out it was like a shockwave went off. The whole room shook, physically felt it, and I visually saw a ripple run right through the room. It's hard to describe how this has effected me emotionally and psychologically. To go from being in love and loving someone you have been with for the last 14 1/2 years and believing you are going to continue on loving this person until you die; from going from that to those feelings are gone - pretty much in an instant has really rattled me. They are truly gone for me, completely. Yes I get residual feelings of I love him but I remind myself you were loving a lie and you can't love a lie, that would be ludicrous. I don't know who I am married to. I don't know what's true about him and what's not; other than the fact he's capable of what he's done. I don't feel like I know him. So how can I love him, I don't.

I agree with what you said about the two types. Apparently I married to the one with a serious default. Because this goes beyond cheating and lying. He claims to have had his wake up call. How do I know that? Answer - base it on his current actions. How do I know if his current actions , the positive ones aren't lies? Answer - I don't know. How do I go foward with him from here? Answer - I don't know if I want to. You're right this puts me at a disadvantage. Creepy that he claims he's the one at a disadvantage because he has to change if he stays in the relationship. So I asked him if wants one of those open type marriages, just as in to see where his minds at. He answered no.

But we do get along other than that huge major issue, read elephant in the room. We don't physically fight or yell and have usually come to agreeable solutions to issues that have come up.


Unfortunately my oldest is almost 17, the next is about 14, and the three youngest are about to turn 11. They are aware of what has happened and are quite disturbed. I can't take away anything that has already been done. Like myself, they have to live with the fact the man who they thought their father was, was not. He wasn't the greatest father, but what father truly is without fault - other than God himself. It's hard for me because I ask what was real if anything in the last 14 years with him. Was the fatherly stuff real or was it more of a show to cover up the reality?

I feel like I'm drowning in a wall of fog.

Do I want him being in charge of my ventilator? NO! Spose' I better find a power of attorney soon, otherwise he'll have that power - right.

I guess I'm more in the mode of getting myself to a point of either - I'm capable of going forward in this marriage and he is too; or getting myself to the point where I'm able to detatch and walk away.

This is why I am seeing a counselor to help me sort through and help me get to a point to make sound, healthy, good deciscions - nothing rash.

I agree.


Does this look like I draw the line in the sand, he fails to follow through - I go dark on him?


I have read some through the site and I have ordered the book, by Dr.Harley. I also ordered a book written by David Clarke. I was going to read through them and lend them to our counselor.

I now have 3 books in my possession; His Needs, Her Needs & Love Busters both by Dr. Harley and also Grown-up Marriage by Judith Viorst. Still waiting to get my hands on David Clarke's book I Don't Love You Anymore. Is there any other Dr. Harley book I should get? Also read through Don't Call It Love by Partick Carnes.

He, WH, was curious as to what I had purchased so I showed him. The response I got was rolled glazed over eyes and unspoken words but I could tell he was not pleased. As I said previously we are both in counseling. The counselor wants to wait until we work through personal issues before attempting marriage counseling. BUT...

And there is this BIG BUT, as always. << read into that what you may

WH, as I have stated, wants to stay in the marriage. As he claims he loves me. And sees the error of his ways, blah, blah, blah, and is now going to commit fully to a relationship with me. However with that being said he does have this overwhelming attitude that IT (the problems we had/have) don't need to be worked on becuase he's done with his old stinkin' thinkin' and actions (his words). Therefore can we just be done with it and move forward.



I guess he fails to realize that after finding out the man who I thought I was married to and loved isn't and that basically I feel completely utterly violated, I'M FINDING IT HARD TO FIND ANY LOVE FOR HIM. duh...

yes I'm p'od

let alone confused

OK, so read through Dr.Harley's books. And I have a question.

One of my husband's needs is an attractive spouse. All through the dating and marriage he's always told me I was beautiful and didn't have a problem with my looks, until recently - last 3 years - he just said this less and less until it stopped, but never complained. I haven't changed a bit in looks other than weight. I'm 5'11, not to unattractive but I like to keep my appearance simple & plain, have always done so. I was 250 when we met and through some emotional storms I gained a hundred pounds and have currently lost 50 of it - right around the time he withdrew his comments. As in I was losing weight, taking care of myself and the more I did so - he stops saying these nice things or anything at all. Anyways not to far back after D-day I confronted him on what he found attractive about the women he had been seeing and some prostituting with. His answer was they were his type in physical appearance. And obviously I'm not. They dolled up, were on average no taller than 5'3 and no more than 120lbs, all of them - his words.

So my question is this. Put aside the obvious, he married me and knew the way I looked and I did ask before we said the I do's if anything about my plain, tall, large appearance was a problem; not a problem he said at the time. How am I supposed to change my appearance to meet those of the women he had been seeing??? Do I somehow convince a surgeon to chop me off at the knees, thus losing 50lbs and then lose another 100??? Do I start wearing whore make-up and spray up my hair? grrr... And while I was reading the books grew more intensley p'od. Because if he accepted my looks then why in the world should I have to change to look like another women who I am not physically compatible with?

help me please

That's a tough one, Alice. I'm more of the physical type that your husband had his A's with: about 5'2" and under 120lbs. And all of H's ex girlfriends, including his first wife, were the same. You could have cut us out of a mold. It was weird.

I weigh about 7lbs more than I did before we got married. I'm actually in better shape because I work out harder, train with a trainer and am more muscular and 1 clothes size smaller. But 3 kids and 21 years later, things HAVE shifted around.

He's not said anything about that, thank goodness but since his EA with the old girlfriend, he has brought up the subject of hair, nails, makeup and other 'girly-girl' stuff a LOT more often.

I always enjoyed have a great cut. Since I've started to go gray, I color it now. But I never wore a ton of makeup--I'm dark and my features stand out without a lot of glop. A swipe of mascara and liner always seemed to do the trick. And I have NEVER been able to do much with my nails. They're neat but they're short. They just do. not. grow. So I don't like wearing colored polish on them and drawing attention to them or my hands.

But H's old girlfriend? TONS of makeup--clearly LOTS of time (and money) spent highlighting and foiling hair. Clothes just so (I have pretty simple and classic tastes--don't go for loud, frilly, etc.). Nails, nails, nails.

And for the past 3 years, he's made just enough comments to let me know he wishes I were more 'girly-girl'. It's tough to figure out how to accomodate this need without compromising the person I am!!!

Exactly!


I'm neat but just plain, no fuss. Even when I was lots smaller, long before he met me of course but I never got under 165. I don't die my hair or cut it often, it's real long - past my behind. I don't curl it or tease it or spray it. And I'm pale like a ghost and some red tinting to my face do to mild roscea. I burn easy and in the summer after the burn on the pale ghostly limbs fades I have some color as to not glow in the dark ... heehee. As for my clothes it's pretty much jeans and a shirt unless I'm required to go somewheres specail. Then I pick out a nice dressy comfortable outfit but still no make up. Don't like make up really. I find it to much to fuss with and I never cared for the cost. Nails are short and kept clean.

But these women are everything I am not, nor aspire to be - no offense.

So I suppose I'm low maintenance, thinking of all the money I have saved and used elsewhere - like feeding 5 hungry growing kids. I wonder how he would feel if I blew 300 a month on being high maintenance. Perhaps I should try?

oh and his mom is very petite and 5'2

And I did ask how he would feel if and when his daughters got to my size if he would love them any less, before I knew of love busters. Was that love busterish? Because I do worry about how daddy views his daughters' appearance. When my oldest dd was a lil bird he would always tell her she was going to be a super model some day. Now that she's his height and weighs more than him, he's stopped telling her she's pretty.

Girlie-girls require manly men!

Frankly, your husband has been using you - the fine china - to plow the fields and plant the crops. Instead of the sweat of his own brow...

His criticism of you is actually a condemnation of himself.

I don't think he's that conscious to recognize it, but that's what it is...

Help me please, pass me a lightbulb. I think I see it.

weight gain is due to stress. when the woman is doing all the heavy lifting in the relationship, she's going to gain weight. it's that part of weight gain/loss that the fitness gurus can't and won't address.

OH's husband hasn't worked consistently for most of their married life. He expects her to pull in the paycheck and tolerate his tantrums. And look like she doesn't have to do all that heavy lifting because of the imbalance in their relationship. When he looks at her, sees the lack of time spent in a salon, instead of appreciating the efficiency that this represents, and the fact that she doesn't need to be artificial, he criticizes it. He has to know she can't afford the time or the money to "doll up" like his affair preferences do - so in essence, when he criticizes his wife, it's a reflection on himself.

When your husband gets critical of your looks, NOW after being content before he started cheating, he's placing a moral indictment on himself. First of all, because he wasn't emotionally honest with you before about your weight, if indeed it is an issue for him, and now, because it's a way for him to add another layer of cruelty to his betrayal of you with OW.

When a man is openly cruel like this, it puts another gallon or two of gas in the karma bus getting ready to roll over him. And somewhere in the back of his brain he can hear the engines warming up. If he continues his bad behavior, you know he's managed to ignore that sound - for now.

You have to get on with your own personal focused recovery of your own soul. Don't lose the weight to appeal to him - you can never catch up to OW who haven't had to live with his pigheadedness yet. But give her a while - and you take a break and move into Plan B - let her carry ALL his stuff and see how skinny she stays! You get healthy for you - not in order to "compete".

Wow, interesting. Especially in light of comments he's made to the kids and me about the way we appear in public. The kids should be dressed just so or "people will think we're slouches" (translated: "People will think badly of ME")

I think his more recent criticisms of me fall into the same category.

And the girly-girl stuff is interesting. When we met/started dating, it was the mid-1980's. Big hair was in. I wore my hair long, permed and curly. My hair is naturally very fine and only slightly wavy. I have a LOT of hair but it's not thick by nature; it's only because I have so much of it that it appears thick. So...it needed the help of a perm to be thick/curly.

I get my hair cut about every 6-7 weeks because I now wear it medium short and I color it. Every time I come home from the salon he comments "why don't you let your hair grow out again?"

Well, a few reasons. 1. It's so fine that it's a mess when it's long and it looks terrible.
2. I'm 52 years old and in my opinion, there comes a point when long hair on a woman that old is ridiculous
3. I'm not doing the big hair/perm thing again. That was very 1980's!

But OW lives in the land of big hair: Texas. And judging by the FB photos I saw of her recently, her hair is very long/thick and curly. Gee what a surprise. And she's the same age as I am! For some reason she can pull it off.

I'm digressing. Your original point, KA--that when he criticizes me, it's a criticism of himself--is right on. Thank you.