I had written back in June, but the crash swept away the thread. I�ll try to keep this as brief as possible. My wife had an EA/PA exactly 10 years ago. We�ve been married 23 years. We �recovered� and the OM is out of the picture. We actually did really well for a number of years, but then grew apart. She eventually gravitated to becoming best friends with our DS (now 20) and DD (now 18) as they were in high school.

She�s been a SAHM since our DS was born. Both kids are now away at college, and are doing well, but she is struggling with the empty nest. She is working part-time with very flexible hours, and has become very independent.

As she became best friends with our kids, I slowly got pushed aside by all of them, and eventually became the silent roommate. I�m a conflict avoider, and I just stuck my tail between my legs and put up with it (wrong, I know). We have had no SF for 3 years. There are no intimate or close feelings between us.

Back in June I sensed a change in her. She knew our DS was going away to college, and it seemed like she was going through an MLC � she just wanted to hang out with new friends and act 20 years younger than she was. After going though an affair before, I was much quicker to look for the signs and to start snooping.

I saw that she was texting several people a lot, and one week I found a number of flirty texts with one guy who she barely knew. It was clear that they hadn�t done anything yet, but it was definitely heading for a wreck. I called her on it before something did happen. She said she would never cheat again, and she knew it crossed a line. She didn�t believe in divorce and wanted to work on our marriage. She said she would stop contacting him.

We went to a MC 4 or 5 few times over the next months, and things improved a little on the surface. I asked her to check out this site, and to fill out the questions. She did the needs, but not the love busters one. We were having too many relationship talks for a while, and then it became pretty clear that she really didn�t want to have to work on things. In light of the situation, I started doing a Plan A and stopped pushing the relationship stuff.

I think things have improved since I�ve done the Plan A. I feel better about myself, but the relationship only seems better superficially. I don�t think her true feelings toward me have changed much. I have been snooping and I know it is a big love buster to her. I�m not aware of any other love busters I�m doing, but I don�t feel I�ve made much of a dent in her love bank. I know she is cake-eating.

The snooping is killing me though. I see her searching for classmates on facebook. She�ll find one and within 10 minutes say her marriage is struggling. I know she talks with her friends the same way. The worst part is I see how secretive she is being � setting up new emails and changing passwords etc.

Although those things are tough to see, she hasn�t really done anything too bad until recently. She keeps stopping and starting communication with this OM from June. He is about 10 years younger, and married with a young kid. He is a real player who doesn�t even know her well (just see each other at athletic events). She initially set up a secret fb account where they could chat, but then she cancelled it because she thought I could track it. This week she set up a new email where they can chat. I�ve only seen a couple of conversations. Literally every comment he makes is about him lusting after her, saying how sexy she is, wanting to rip her clothes off, or taking her in the closet, etc. She isn�t responding much, other than saying he is bad, or nice to hear, or no one has ever told her stuff like that. She has said she feels bad because it isn�t good for his marriage to think that way (what about our marriage?!). Then she said I guess I can�t control what you think. She isn�t the one leading the charge, but she keeps going back for her fix, and she is leading him on.

I told her in June and with the MC that I would not put up with another affair. In June I called her on it, and I told her she was heading for a wreck with her eyes wide open. She says she has absolutely no interest in sex, so she doesn�t want any admiration talk from me. She is sure lapping it up from him though.

I know this is way too long. I guess I�m looking for insight on what to do. Do I wait for the wreck to happen, or do I try to stop it again? Part of me wants to just let it happen so that I can say I tried and that she made the choice to end the marriage. I�ve lost so much respect for her that I can�t honestly say that I want the marriage back. I haven�t let on that I know any of this is happening. I�m just struggling to do Plan A based on what I read.

I know I should expose, but I�m not sure I�d really call this an EA yet. They�ve only chatted a few times (I know� that I�ve seen), and it�s like junior high. I haven�t seen any comments about meeting or after-the-fact stuff about how it was great being together etc. I don�t think I really have enough proof. I know where it�s going though. Is she already in the fog?

Is it time for Plan B? Or do I try even harder at Plan A? I assume I can�t trust her to stop things from going further, but do I tell her what I know? I just don�t know where I am in the process, and I don�t know what to do next. Thanks for any help you can give me.

Look, I see no reason you think this is not an affair as of yet. If, for some strange reason, you want to be married to a person like this, a serial cheating case of arrested develpment, you should expose like hell.
What, exactly, are you getting out of this marriage. You've been cast aside by your wife and kids for years. She has cheated on you multiple times, now. You need to look within to see why you are willing to be treated like this. And, then , you need to start looking out for yourself. No one else in your family seems to.

It's an affair, plain and simple. Do a screen dump of the sexy emails and take them to the OM's wife, if he's still married.
Also confront her and say there needs to be no classmates, no facebook, no myspace or ANYTHING.
You can't police her into fidelity, though.
I have a FB, and I haven't had SF in YEARS, but you don't see me telling old male classmates that my M is in trouble. That's code for, "I want to screw you." I've had guys facebook me to say they just divorced/separated/it's complicated/whatever and I just hit DELETE.
But I have strong boundaries. Your wife doesn't. She needs to find more fulfilling ways to get through the day. Volunteering? Substitute teaching? Heck, even starting a garden or learning a new craft.

Sounds like you've both checked out of the M. You're trying to check back in, but she's not interested.

I suggest that you start by answering the question: why do you want to remain in this M?

Why not? It has every symptom. Your wife is cultivating a secretive relationship outside your marriage in order to satisfy emotional needs that she regards as important. That is an affair, no matter what you or she want to call it.

I remember when I was online, too, acting like a high-schooler with the woman with whom I got involved. And it was an EA, and then it was a PA, but it was all an affair, no sugarcoating it, and none of it was anything other than wrong.

I am sorry you're in this spot.

Have you read this newsletter?

When to call it quits - Part I

You've done "Plan A" for awhile with little results. Continue it...while you also EXPOSE to OM's wife and prepare for Plan B.

Maybe shoot for January 1, 2010 as your Plan B date OR do it next week after Thanksgiving (or Thanksgiving night if you want to give the kids an explanation).

At some point, I believe, you have to have a boundary that you refust to remain forever in a loveless marriage. She either gets on board with producing one (and I wouldn't even say "trying" to produce one as with Harley's materials it IS guaranteed to produce one IF imlemented fully by both parties) OR you'll have to remove yourself from the situation by separating.

Sorry to see you back and snooping isn't a love buster (or, at least, it shouldn't be)

Mr. Wondering

Yes, this is an affair. She is sharing things with him she has no business sharing and engaging in VERY inappropriate conversation. And since it isn't the first time, this can't be chalked up to an "oops." She knows what she is doing.

Sites like FB aren't necessarily inherently evil, but your wife can't handle them. At all. And it sounds like you have reason to snoop. I had an affair 3 years ago, and my husband still has "snooping authority." It isn't a LB for me because I am not hiding anything.

We had am empty, roommate type marriage years ago. I am still sometimes surprised that my H chose to stay after my A because it would have been a good reaason for him to get out of a crappy marriage to a selfish wife. We have recovered, but only because of true change. And the bulk of that change was on my shoulders because of the terrible thing I had done.

Being as this is not the first time for her, I know that changes things. My H wouldn't stand for it again, and I don't blame him. But I think there are people on here who have recovered from repeats. I am just sorry you are having to go through this yet again.

Thanks to all of you who have replied. This situation is really killing me. While I feel good that I�ve been working at the marriage, I know I had my share of blame in letting the marriage deteriorate. I�m just so down right now � I have lost all respect for her, and for myself for putting up with this situation for so long.

I do know this meets the definition of an affair. I guess I�m just like 99% of the BS�s who aren�t ready to rush out and expose. I know they would just laugh it off saying it was harmless flirting with no intention of acting on it.

I know it�s not the best way to try to save the marriage, but there�s a big part of me that wants to watch this play out to see what she does. Kind of like not being able to look away from an accident. Does that make sense to anyone?

If she goes through with it I can do nuclear exposure and go directly to plan B or D. But I still have a hope that I will be able to watch the light bulb come on and come running back to me. I could feel better about a chance of recovery if that happened. Am I just kidding myself about that being a possibility? Is she already too much in a fog for that to happen on her own?

Zelmo � I�m not getting much out of this marriage. Like another thread, I�m sure I was focused on making it through to get the kids off to college. I know I didn�t do them any favors though. They are great kids, but they didn�t experience what a good marriage looks like (just an added note that we did not tell them about WW�s affair 10 years ago). I agree - I need to look at what I want, and if she is the right person even if she wants the marriage too.

Ima- I appreciate your perspective. It does shock me how she can keep playing with matches. I�ve told her I don�t mind her doing certain things independently, but I can�t live with secretive stuff or lies of omission. She knows how important that is to me, and to watch her cross that line repeatedly is causing me to die a death of 1,000 cuts. Ironically, one of the things she�s doing is to help coach a sport, which just happens to be putting her closer to the OM.

MIM � that is the $64,000 question that I really need to spend time on. After the 1st A we had a boomerang recovery, and it was fantastic for several years. I know I�d like to experience that again. But I also know that we had never really solved the problems that existed, so it was built on sand.

GO � I agree it is 100% wrong, and that anyone I showed the info to would agree. After her A I have been even more careful to keep myself away from situations that could either lead to something, or that an outsider would look at and say was wrong. It�s disappointing that she hasn�t put those same EP�s on herself.

Mr. W � I have read that article and number of times. When we were going to counseling I actually gave it to her and told her I felt this was a better program with a much better chance of success that what our MC was doing. We talked about it a few times, but this was when I started to realize (maybe a DJ?) that she didn�t really want to work at things.

Thanks for the support about snooping. It�s crazy, but she considers H & O (and she added the word trust next to it) as her #2 need, so she feels I am not meeting her need when I snoop. She ranked Admiration as #8, but I feel this is really her #1 since she is always looking for ways to get recognition from others. I�m sure that�s why the attention she�s getting is so addictive.

Thanks for all of your input. I will start putting together the contact list for exposure. I�ll also spend some time re-studying the Plan B steps. I've been in this rut so long it's scary to even think about making a change.

Luriosi, thank you for the input. I know I can't control her thoughts, but I don't understand how she could allow herself to keep playing with fire.

Like someone said, I can't be the cop to make her stay faithful. I wish the light bulb would come on, she would do a 180, and she would want to do these things to protect me.

@TrainWrecked You can't make her do a 180, particularly not by yourself. She's so used to ignoring your opinion that it means nothing to her anymore.

PLAN A to show her what an awesome husband you are is your first stop on the anti-affair train. Learn what a good Plan A requires, particularly the bits about "meet her emotional needs" and "do not engage in any love busters".

EXPOSE what she is doing. Demurring to sexual flirtation while continuing to engage is like a criminal writing out a note beforehand that he wasn't going to do what it appeared he was going to do. It gives them "plausible deniability". My wife was never the one engaging in the sexual banter... but she told him it made her laugh, he was funny, what a joker, hah-hah-hah. Eight months and endless tears later, if there was some way I could have stopped it before it escalated, I would have.

PLAN AN END DATE after which Plan A will end. You can out-compete these guys online. You have a home-field advantage. You have around a 15% chance that she will "see the light" with exposure and Plan A and recommit to the marriage, and if that works out, it's the best of both worlds. But if she doesn't, you go to Plan B.

IMPROVE YOURSELF. Obviously, there are things you can work on to make yourself better. Lose some weight. Stop doing things that annoy her. Pay more attention to her. Take her out on dates. Be more assertive about yourself. Take a self-improvement course. Read some books by Dr. Harley. Don't try to educate her, but show that you want her... but don't NEED her.

For god sakes, trainwreck, quit being a conflict avoider and put an end to this thing. Print out your WW and OM's emails, and walk them over to OMW. She'll put an end to it for you. Then you sit your WW down and tell her, "this is what we need to do to improve our marriage, and you need to get on board." If she doesn't, then file for D. Let me tell you this right now. If your WW does not already have another OM at the time your file for divorce (i.e. you kill this affair by telling OMW), your WW will want to work it out. Your WW will NOT want to be alone at her age without anyone else lined up. Most women will not leave their man until they have another man lined up. She's looking for her exit affair right now. Beat her to the punch, and she'll come running back. You need to sack up and be a man, and take charge of your own marriage.

Exactly what I would say.

If it's harmless flirting, his wife (and mother) should have no problem reading their emails.

If I were you, I'd tell her she has to get a full-time job - now. She's got too much time on her hands with no responsibility, which sadly, makes you look less interesting. She's taking all you provide for granted.

Cancel the Internet, her credit cards, and her cell phone.

Let her see what it'll be like when she has to pay for all that on her own, to get a man.

Barnboy � thanks for the specific plan of action. I have definitely improved at meeting her highest needs, but it feels like she almost is on defense to guard against me scoring points. It seems obvious that her boring old husband can�t match up to thrill of getting flirtatious compliments from the OM.

I assume most of their communication is online, but he only lives an hour away, and she has plenty of time to see him if she wanted. I know I�m being na�ve, but I don�t think they�ve really spent any time alone.

I have tried to step up my efforts the past couple of weeks, and she seems to be responding some. But I can�t tell if it�s because of me, or it�s because she�s feeling better about herself now that she has me and the OM both chasing her.

Jim � I appreciate the 2 x 4�s � I know you are right on target. I didn�t seem to be making much progress when we were supposedly �working� on our marriage. I feel like I am making some progress with the Plan A, but it sucks to see her comments when I snoop. I specifically asked her about the exit affair in June. I know she feels stuck financially, and I have to assume you are right on target there.

I don�t have a bunch of emails. My keylogger has the ability to take screenshots, so I really just have a couple of 10 minute chats where he�s made 5 or 6 comments each time. I know Dr. Harley just had an article about when to expose, and there was an example of when it didn�t make sense. I doubt this guy talks this way in front of his wife, but maybe he does? Am I risking the chance of giving up my surveillance method?

Cat � she has looked for work. She has a medical background that would require going back to school and doing intern work to get re-certified, but there is nowhere she could do that within driving distance. She does work full-time some weeks, but it�s usually only 20 � 25 hours. It is very low pay, and would not be enough to support herself. Even though she loved being home with the kids, and loved the lifestyle, she kicks herself for giving up her profession (yes, she lays the guilt trip on me for that).

Do you think she is testing me to see how bad I really want her? If she knows I�m snooping, is she just checking to see what I will do, or if I will put up a fight? I know a lot of people say women don�t respect wimps. I know I have been one.

If what you have is damaging enough to convince a wife that her husband is trying to get some on the side, I would drive over and talk to her today. I would then let OM know that you know every time he contacts your wife and that you will let his wife know every time he chooses to contact your wife again. You know what, scratch that, if your keylogger doesn't have it, get a better keylogger and prevent her from even contacting the guy. Lock her out from that and other sites. You lock your home computers down and don't let her get around it. When she blows up about it and refuses to abide by your marital boundaries, that's when you sit down the kids and let them know that their mother is cheating on you AGAIN, and that you won't continue to live in that kind of marriage. Let them know you want to try and work it out, but their mother needs to behave like a married woman for that to happen. Your WW will flip out for a while, but she'll get over it after a month or two. Once she is no longer in a position to start up cyber-affairs (because you locked it down), then she might work on the marriage. If she doesn't, then dump her to the curb and cut her off financially. She'll probably come running back as long as she doesn't have another OM.

Your goal is to force her to choose to work on the marriage BEFORE she finds someone else to replace you. That will be the key to your marital recovery.

Jim, thanks for the advice. In my heart, I know you're right - that is the best course to save the M. But like some of the others questioned me, I need to figure out if and/or why I really want this M.

Do I want her to be forced to stay with me just because she can't find a replacement in time? Even with EPs in place, is she always going to be looking for something better?

It would make a huge difference to me if she figured out on her own that she was making a mistake, and that I was the best man for her.

If I confronted her I'm sure she'd admit what she's doing is wrong, but she wouldn't agree that it's an affair. I think most people outside of MB would feel the same way.

She knows I've said I wouldn't stay if she had another affair. There is a big part of me right now that feels I should just watch what she does, and if she takes it further then she's made her choice, and then I go to Plan D.

If I decide to expose, do I just expose to the OMW? I agree she should know this info. But based on the crude way he's approached a relative stranger, I have to believe he's had multiple ONS's, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's working on a number of women at the same time and just seeing who will take the bait.

Sorry for all of my posts being so long, but there is so much going on in my head, and I really don't have anyone else to talk to. Thanks for your help

She's more likely to do this before she finds someone else if you appear to be moving on without her.


So you are going to just try and entrap her so you can leave. That's no way to live. Why wait for it to go physical to divorce her? If that's the way you feel, just divorce her now. Your plan is the worst possible path you could take. You are pretty much guaranteeing that she'll cheat on you, you'll get hurt, and you'll get divorced. That's what is going to happen with your current plan. Now if you just expose to OMW and start the process of divorce, you might be pleasantly surprised that your wife might fight to keep you.


Well, this may be contrary to most MB advice, but I would just expose to OMW first. Most likely, OM will leave your wife alone, and you don't have to deal with the LB that exposure can be to the WS. However, if she just keeps it up, then I would expose to family, friends, and your children. If you do get divorced, I would sit down with your children and just explain to them why you are going through with divorce (your lack of intimacy and her multiple affairs).

The problem is that she is being intoxicated with brain chemicals as she is being pursued. She can NOT figure it out on her own any more, because she is addicted. Can a drug addict stop wanting drugs? NO. They have to be stopped, let the drug seep out of their blood system, and THEN they may want to stop. But while they are in the thrill of the hunt, they cannot think straight.

Ok. Try this. Ask her to read what she is saying to him. Ask her to give her FATHER what she is saying to him and see what her FATHER thinks.

If she says no to either thing, it's an affair.

Jim and Cat, I appreciate your continued responses. I�ve re-read the thread a number of times, and I realize that I�m just like most BS�s who come asking for advice � we have a hard time hearing the advice because we think our situation is different.

Jim, I don�t think watching her actions is entrapping her. My opinion is that if I do threaten or file, that she will say she wants to stay married. But that feels like more of an entrapment to me.

Cat, I think she is conflicted about the attention. I went back to review the screenshots and keylogging, and it�s about 95/5 with him leading the flirting. But she has kept going back, and she hasn�t told him to stop. There�s no question what her father would say about them.

I agree it makes sense to expose to just the OMW for now. My thought is to then sit down with WW and tell her that I�m ready to file for D, but I want us to make one last attempt at saving our M. In light of the situation, I think it would make sense to follow the process in Steve�s When to Call it Quits article.

It seems clear from the advice I�ve gotten that I can�t treat this like you would with a first affair. I know I don�t want an M where she is just there because she has no other options. I think Jim is 100% right � I�m just her meal ticket until she finds a replacement. I do want us to stay together, but only if we truly re-build the M.

Am I on the right track, or am I still being too na�ve?

I think you're being a doormat, operating out of fear and not wanting to admit it, and just wishin' and hopin' she'll see what a swell guy you are and just forget all those guys she keeps flirting with online.

If you want a chance, you will sit down with your phone, RIGHT NOW, and call every one of her family members, friends, and FB acquaintances, and let them know she is cheating on you.

If you're not willing to do that, you might as well just pack up and leave. You'll never get her back the way you are acting.

Agreed. All you are doing now is avoiding conflict. You are half hoping that she'll just run away with someone else so you can avoid the conflict of stopping her behavior now.