I didn't fail to account for anything...

I don't need to account for something that doesn't exist.
There is no preforgiveness clause.

I knew you had it in you Mark. Too bad my pastor didn't.

That needs to be shown to EVERY "christian" adulterer.


This is what "christian" waywards are banking on.

John 10:27-29

27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 3:22-24

22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Pariah,

As an elder in a church I can tell you that at times it can be overwhelming to be held responsible for the flock left in your care. The mistake so many fall into is that they begin to believe that it is their flock they are shepherding. They fail to realize that they are merely hired hands hired to do the work of the one who owns the sheep.

Thus they allow their self protective instincts overshadow their mission. They protect those they feel need protection based entirely on their own selfish needs while letting those who need to be led slip through the cracks. They allow those who pump up their own status to be the determiners of what they do instead of doing what is right based on scriptural standards.

Those called to teach and watch over the flock will be held to a higher standard than those trusted to their care. Paul tells Timothy to set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity. (I Tim 4:12) A leader who is the cause of someone leaving the flock and being lost to the shepherd is in serious peril.

Now the OP's situation is one that happens all too often in the church. Some really great church leaders have had serious failings in their personal life but they have returned to leadership only after they have been fully restored and that process can't happen if they refuse to confess their sins and attempt to manipulate the grace of Christ into something that allows them to be above the very standards they are called to teach.

One more thing that anyone who attempts to keep this kind of thing secret needs to keep in mind is that the God you claim to serve, if He is real and is really who you yourself say He is, will be certain that you don't get away with deception for long.

Even worse for them is the fact that by doing such things they are giving credence to the claims that the teachings of the church are false and really aren't true. Those called to be an example will be set up as an example. Whether as an example of what to do and who to be and emulate or what to avoid and who should be shunned is entirely up to them and the way they respond to their own failings.

A pastor doesn't have to be perfect. But he can't allow himself to be thought to be perfect while hiding his own shortcomings. He himself needs to be above the appearance of reproach so as not to cause any under his care to stumble and fall.

When my own marriage was in peril, through not my actions but those of my wife, I refrained from acting in my leadership role until stability and peace returned to my own household. Those who know what happened back then today are drawn to the fact that we nearly failed in our marriage due to mistakes, some made by each of us and yet were able to right the ship, make changes that needed to be made, worked at restoring our own marriage first and showing that recovery is possible.

Today we are leading the marriage ministry for our church. We can do so with confidence that we are examples of God's restorative grace rather than because of our faults being kept secret.

Mark

Is your friend going to help the OW TRICK and decieve the OW's husband by keeping her dirty secret? How many more people will be hurt by keeping this crime a secret? How many more families will the pastor be free to destroy in his church? Is the OW's H supposed to come to church and remain ignorant of the fact that the pastor, the OM, is a danger to him? How is that moral to not tell this man so he can protect himself and his children from their predator pastor? Does it get any more evil than that?


What is wrong here is that neither marriage will recover as long as they are based on a lie. And both are based on lies and deceit. The pastor cannot recover personally as long as he is free to abuse his authority and exploit other females in the church. Your friend is making sure her H is free to go after other women in his church and destroy more marriages. By keeping the secret, he is free to do it again.

Your friend will be an accessory to the crime by keeping their secret. And no marriage will be saved this way. The only thing that will survive is the AFFAIR. They have ensured that will continue by failing to end contact. Your friend is doing as much harm to her marriage as is her sexual predator husband. She is keeping him SICK by keeping the secret.

LadyLynn, if you are a friend to this couple, I would strongly suggest you visit the pastor's boss and the OW's husband and expose this affair. The pastor needs to be removed and the OW husband needs to know the truth so he can protect himself from his sexual predator pastor and his fallen wife.

We have a man, a betrayed husband, on this forum who is in the process of getting divorced because his wife is having an affair with her pastor. We have counseled this betrayed husband to sue for divorce on grounds of adultery and have the PASTOR subpoenaed into court to give sworn testimony under oath. It is a church in rural KY.

There is a FOX in the henhouse.

My XW isn't required to apologize or ask my forgiveness in order to repent, however I AM required to forgive her no matter what.

She gets rewarded and I'm still the loser in the whole deal.

Ok, I've heard what everyone has said and some what agree. But let me ask this question. "What about forgiveness". There are people that actually make mistakes and are not habitual offenders. Everyone of us have skeltons in the closet, we've all done something that we look back and think "What in the world made me do such a dumb thing". Should you be thrown out to the dogs because you guffed up. Yes I admit, it was a really bad mistake. But should every mistake you make as a christian be put out to the entire congregation? So everything you do wrong as a christan does it mean that there is no hope. God is a forgiving God, he gives us chances because it's not his will that any should perish. Yes the Elder's are held in higher esteem, however at the same time, they are human just like we are. We look at adultry as such a big sin, but sin is sin. How about the lies, backbitting, drunkeness, and etc..What about the scripture that says "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted." People can make a mistake and never repeated it. There are people who have committed adultry and never committed that sin ever again. Are we saying once a sinner/adultor always a sinner. Do we get one strike then we're out?

Also, come to find out the OW is now involved with someone else, she really gets around.

He's an adulterer and a serial liar. Unless he repents openly and takes his due, the church should shun him. The OW should also be shunned.

I won't pretend to be a consistently church-going gal, but I was quite involved in my church back in the day. I know some churches are very stringent on 'outing' sin, especially when the sin is sex-related...I think it goes back to our puritanical roots, for some. I don't know that I agree with dragging someone to the front of the church and trotting out the transgression, but I DO agree in some respects that it is similar to exposure and being O&H, and goes a ways toward future accountability. As in "Whew, THAT was terrible! I won't commit a sin like that again!" Just my O.

Let me take a stab at these, LadyLynn. (Remember, I was the church singer who got into an affair with another member of our singing team, so my wife & I have done a lot of thinking about church aspects of these kinds of messes since I started on my road to recovery...)

Not necessarily. The purpose of exposure isn't to shame/humiliate per se, it's to end the affair completely & minimize the chances that it'll restart. (Sometimes, it ends the affair via the process of shame/humiliation.) However, the OW's husband needs to know - no ifs, ands or buts. And the other elders need to know - no ifs, ands or buts. This level of exposure may be enough to end the affair. Now, maybe those people will be discreet, or maybe they'll gossip & word will get out. Maybe the OW's husband will scream bloody murder. (Not unlikely.) This pastor has no right to control that, however. If word gets out (as it very likely will), it'll be much better if he has already had the minimal decency to resign. If he tries to cover it up & stay on, he'll be compounding the sin of his adultery with the sin of maintaining false witness to the congregation; and when word gets out, the fresh blows upon his marriage will be even worse.

No, it doesn't mean there's no hope. The Christian faith holds out the hope of forgiveness for those who repent. Please explain to yourself, what sort of repentence this pastor would be demonstrating if he lives a lie by trying to conceal his manifest disqualification from standards of his office? You can't; there is no explanation. The pastorship is a role of self-sacrifice, putting the flock before self. Pulling wool over the flock's eyes in order to save his position would not be putting the flock before self. This doesn't mean he's forever DQ'd from any form of ministry, but he needs a good long break in order to get his head right, fix his marriage, and restore his personal relationship with the God whom he purports to wish to serve. It's not all about him, it's about the congregation's rights, too. If he fesses up before them and they rush to offer forgiveness & beg him to stay on, then that'd be operating with fair/full disclosure; but how can he hide the sin -- pretend it didn't occur -- and sincerely plead/wish for the congregation's forgiveness? The answer is, he can't.

You're right, adultery is a sin, as are the other wrongs that you've listed. Sin has a price. Just because someone else somewhere else is a drunk, or someone else is a thief, or someone else is a liar, doesn't mitigate adultery. If he were an habitual drunk, thief or liar, he'd be rendering himself similarly unfit for ministry.

It says the elders & others have an obligation to restore the sinner, but last I checked, it doesn't say he gets to keep his job as a pastor while the restoration is going on. Review 1st Timothy 3:1-7 if you're confused about that point.

First off, he's a repeat offender; he hooked up with this woman more than once. Yes, there are people who stop doing a particular sin & never repeat it thereafter. Good - then let him never repeat it. Christian theology holds that a repentant sinner will be guaranteed an eternal afterlife with God; it doesn't mean that sinners are promised to be shielded from the consequences of their sin here on earth. He has forfeited his right to decide his job future; that must be left with the elders. He should not get a vote. In fact, many Christian congregations have a charter that stipulates that the congregation gets to vote on major decisions such as whether to hire or retain a pastor; and for the elders, having prior knowledge of this situation, NOT to disclose such an issue to the congregation prior to a vote would be a huge violation of the congregation's trust. He should submit his resignation, find other means of supporting his family, and work on saving his marriage.

Sometimes, yes. Pilots who are drunk while on duty even once get suspended or fired. Cops who shoot their first innocent bystander are often placed on leave for lengthy periods of time. Politicians who take bribes once are often convicted, tossed from office, and imprisoned on the first offense. This doesn't mean their eternal souls are necessarily consigned to hell by any means, but there is nothing improper or unusual about their facing consequences of their conduct here on earth. (And this sin was directly related to his job -- he was supposed to be steering members of his congregation away from sin, not into the backset of his car.) As I said, he should submit his resignation, find other means of supporting his family, and work on saving his marriage.

Sorry to hear that, but it's irrelevant to your pastor-friend's situation. Just because his OW conducts herself badly doesn't mean he hasn't also conducted himself badly.

FYI: I voluntarily left my position on the singing team without even being asked. It was the second call I made, after I called my wife to confess my affair. Then, my family left the church, because our mere presence there, even in a non-ministry role, would've subjected my wife, myself, and the other affected couple to too many triggers as well as the continued risk of ongoing contact with my OW. Simply put, I needed to step down from singing & leave in order to save my marriage & my family. So does your pastor-friend. Don't let him & his wife fool themselves otherwise, and don't fool yourself. Advise them to do the right thing. Don't be part of a coverup.

P.s. - hastening to add, I'm no theologian... Mark'52 & others may be able to correct stuff I've gotten wrong; but this is how I see it, anyways...

When a person is in a position that has authority to minister to the public he has to keep a certain standard.

You can say he is a predator when he has an A with one of his flock. Does it matter who tried to entice who? Would you trust your daughter to counsel with this man?

If I was a member of his parish I would want to know and make my own choice. Don't they have rights too? They could chose to forgive or not. I would likely forgive him if he stood before everyone and spoke the truth and humbled himself. If I heard it through gossip (and people will know or hear) I would go running from the congregation.

I have made many mistakes in my life. If it effected the wellbeing of someone else I pray I would hold myself accountable.

He is accountable to God, his wife, and his congregation. As long as he hides this terrible secret his wife will suffer every day in shame.

LadyLynn -- are you the BS?

It crossed my wondering mind also.

I'm not so sure "LadyLynn" isn't the pastor...

Lady Lynn,

I don't think he has to be outed in front of the congregation...

But consider that he should have no contact for life with his affair partner and if she is a member of the congregation then one of them simply must leave the church.

Now it would be easy for her to go and he would remain but he would also be keeping something a secret that could limit his effectiveness in shepherding the flock since if anyone came to him to inquire about how to handle infidelity, perhaps someone having an affair of their own or whose spouse was having one, he would not be able to give the right advice without being hypocritical because he himself would be hiding his own failure.

In addition, if he were to keep this thing a secret, then it means that since no one else would know about it, his own weakness could not be monitored. This is the difficulty with sweeping things under the rug that the Roman Catholic Church has discovered in their attempts to prevent telling folks about what has occurred with various priests who have broken faith with a congregation and by not letting the truth be known these men were transferred from diocese to diocese, always with a decent recommendation only to have their past weaknesses appear again at a later date.

Now I'm not suggesting that this man can never again pastor a church or even be in leadership in this same congregation. What I am suggesting is that this is a serious enough problem that he should be required to seek counsel, either from higher ups in the denomination or from an outside source if his church is purely independent.

In order to do that, this simply has to come to light.

Forgiveness can and should happen here, but admitting one's failures is not a punishment but the first step to being forgiven and restored. This man cannot continue to lead God's people by lying to prevent anyone from knowing that he is human and therefor less than perfect.

Suppose you were the woman who needed to seek his private counsel for a problem in your marriage. Would you rather know that he had an affair or would you prefer that his own failure in this regard was being kept a secret?

If you read 2 Samuel 11 & 12, when David committed adultery with Bathsheba, he attempted to hide it. In order to do so he at first simply lied. He then tried to trick everyone by having her husband sent home from the front in hopes that he and everyone else would believe that he was the father of the child that was going to show itself pretty soon. He eventually resorted to murder to cover it up just as surely as if he himself had executed the man.

But God wouldn't settle for David moving forward with his life of comfort and getting away with his crimes, the penalty for both the adultery and the murder being death under the Law. Rather God outed him through the prophet Nathan and soon all the people knew of David's crimes. David was forgiven and he remained King until he passed the scepter to his son Solomon, but the consequences for the sin limited David's ability to be the moral leader of his own family at the cost of another son, the division of his family and his kingdom and the eventual demise of the united kingdom David had worked so hard to bring about after the years of war between himself and Saul.

David was forgiven, but his forgiveness and healing began with his admission of guilt. Who can be forgiven for what he will not admit? We have seen that here many times over the past couple of years where a marriage is destroyed because an unfaithful spouse will refuse to admit to unfaithfulness, but rather prefers to pretend that nothing wrong took place.

If God is who the Bible claims He is and if this man really claims to serve this living real God of the Bible, how can he even think that God is going to leave this alone to remain hidden from view so that the effective work of the church is called into question?

Suppose the woman involved suddenly decided that SHE needed to come clean before God and before her family. What then would the people this man is leading think of him and his ability to lead them into all truth?

For every scenario you can devise that would allow for this to remain a secret, I can come up with a rebuttal, and if I can't I know 50 people that can. This is not something that can be taken lightly. It is a recipe for disaster at a future date in time.

A local congregation is going through near chaos as the result of the moral failure of their pastor. This congregation, growing by leaps and bounds, active in public service and full of people who have been sincere in their efforts to serve God might be dissolving within weeks and all because a hidden affair has come to light within the past two weeks or so. This is SERIOUS business...

I'm not saying you should out this man before the entire world, but if I were in a place to counsel he and or his wife I would make it a point to tell him to step down from his position, admit his failure and spend some time rebuilding the trust of people before trying to lead them. He first and foremost needs to lead by example.

Confess your sins to one another...

How can the man teaching that keep his own sins a secret and think that he will be effective?


This is exactly why so many refuse to accept the church and its teachings. This is the kind of thing that reflects badly on Christ. Pariah's faith was damaged or destroyed by the failure to address his wife's adultery correctly by his own pastor. What does this do to someone looking in from the outside? How can a man hope to be teaching people the ways of God if he himself is not following the same path?

Chuck Colson lied, covered up a break-in, tried to hide his crimes and eventually did jail time. Today he is what I would consider a great Christian leader...



Jim Bakker went to jail, not for adultery but for using the power of his position and the resources of his ministry to cover up his sin. I'd consider him to be restored today, but only because he admitted to what he had done, changed his own position on what he had done and paid the public consequences for his actions that damaged the whole Church at a time when it was already under attack. And though he'll never again have the position he once held, he is today a better example of what it means to be a man of God than before his failure.

JMO.

Mark

I'm sorry princessmeggy, I'm new to the forum so I don't know what "BS" means. Can you please break it down for me so that I can answer your question.

BS=betrayed spouse

Abbreviations/acronyms at this link:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2269137&page=1

Gotcha Mark 1952, great and valid points. Oh and by the way, I am not the pastor in question for those of you that are wondering. My name is LADYLYNN. I never gave a situation like this much thought until it happen to someone very dear to me. From this point on, I will let her talk for herself. She refuses to register, so I told her she could just talk to you all under my name. Hopefully she doesn't back out. By the way, they are getting counseling.

Ok, BS=Betrayed Spouse. Thanks!