Hello,

The instructions said to create a different username when reregistering after the server crash and lost data. I was shocked at the amount of loss that resulted from that!

I was previously signed in as "LingeringDoubts". Wait, please, before hitting "ignore this user", hear me out. I promise not to be as "exhausting" to read.

My W and I have had some changes in our circumstances. She quit her job a couple of weeks ago (after yet another emotional breakdown at home after work, I finally told her she should quit, although I'd given her permission to do so back in August). She's been really affectionate since her last day of work, and has been cleaning and organizing the house a lot. I'm still very committed to our marriage and improving it and myself (Plan A). I know several here don't think my W had an A at all, but I'm still not sure. Still a lot of smoke, things that are hidden, topics she won't discuss.

I asked her at the end of her first week home how she felt. She said something really interesting: "I'm still trying to remember who I was before all this." All what? She quit a job she hated and wasn't a good fit for. Or was that her way of STILL not telling me what happened in June?

Regarding the red strappy lingerie she put in her VS cart with her other purchases, then removed (as I watched unbeknownst to her -- or did she suspect?), then later asked me if she should "order something for [me]?". After the order arrived, she asked me if I wanted it for my birthday or Christmas? I said Bday, of course (because my Bday was sooner, about a month ago). On my Bday, the kids and she gave me some gifts. At the end, she pulled out a little sack and in a flirty voice said, "Oh, I have one more for you!" It was red strappy thing. I acted surprised and delighted. I didn't take it out of its plastic wrapper because the kids were there, but she insisted, so then I did. I said "woo woo!" as I held it up. I can't remember if the girls commented.

She has yet to wear the thing.

In fact, she has a whole drawer full of lingerie, most of which I've never seen on her. How much of it was from her previous M's? When I asked back in July if she had any lingerie from previous M's, she paused and said "I don't know..."

When I brought this up last time, one woman here asked "Who OWNS those things and DOESN'T wear them for her H?"

This is really bothering me about now. We did have SF the night of my Bday, but that was after lights out. My guess is that most men would like to receive a present like that "on display" and in private. WTF with making a big deal of it and in front of the girls? I feel like this was some kind of cruel joke. "Okay, Honey, I bought you some sexy lingerie for your birthday, just like you asked! Here you go, have fun!"

Thoughts?

She didn't expect you to wear it, did she?

J/K

I'm starting to wonder...

My DW would occasionally buy lingerie and never wear it. She has a low libido and, I think, knew she was supposed to do something with lingerie but never quite figured out what.

She also made a big deal out of revealing it to me, usually out of the bag, then I'd never see it again. If I asked about it later she'd say it no longer fit. If she did wear it the encounter would be awkward.

I don't know that it's necessarily anything.

I have a lot of lingerie I've never worn. I always felt kind of silly in it... like it wasn't the real me, but some cheap porno star or something. It also made me more self-conscious about my body, almost like it highlighted the parts of my body that I wanted to hide. Maybe this sounds strange, but I just felt more comfortable naked.

I'm with anna on this one.

I think she might have felt a little bold when she revealed the lingerie to you. Maybe she was in a mood that night, and thought she would try to be sexy and forward - then, it caught her by surprise when she went ahead with the plan! She made the step, and then all of a sudden it was just a little more than she was quite ready for. She just might have embarrassed herself a little.

Give her the benefit of the doubt on that one.

As for lingerie that she hasn't worn? Here's one for you:

I have lingerie in my dresser that I HAVE WORN FOR MY HUSBAND and he DOESN"T REMEMBER IT.

NOPE.

I wear it once, and then he doesn't see it for years. So when he "finds it" in the dresser, he thinks it is NEW.

Only, noooooo, it isn't new. It's been there for years, and he has forgotten it, because when he saw it the first time, he only "saw" it briefly - if you get what I mean.

And he wasn't even looking at the lingerie.

KWIM?

So is it possible you "saw" that lingerie before (not the red thingy, but some of the other stuff) and you don't recall it? It is possible.

And the other thing that might be going on is that she buys it, intending to initiate SF with you


and YOU

are not approachable to her.


Consider why that might be.


My husband scared the dickens out of me for years in the SF dept for approachability.


And it nearly ruined our marriage.


So you might want to give that one a great deal of thought.


Why would she be afraid to initiate with you?

I don't believe my wife is afraid to initiate with me. In fact, she often does (usually after the lights are out, but sometimes sooner -- last night she told me while we were cuddling on the couch that she wanted a naked backrub. I already knew she was tired from cleaning house all day and offered a backrub WITHOUT expectation of SF, when she told me she wanted it naked (that is, both of us -- implying that SF was part of the plan. Otherwise, I'd give her a backrub and I wouldn't be naked. I know, TMI).

Also, it is never the case that I am unapproachable to her. I have NEVER rejected an SF advance from her, ever, and have resolved to never do so, even in the rare case where I might not particularly be in the mood.

I do appreciate the perspective, though. And certainly it is possible that a number of the things she has in her drawer I might have seen her in 7 years ago on or just after our honeymoon and never since, and that I may have forgotten. But there is at least ONE item in there I KNOW I've never seen her in because of the features of that item -- I would have had a lot of fun playing with that and would certainly remember.

Also, I noticed she has a number of G-string/thong type underwear in her underwear drawer. I've NEVER seen her wear anything like that except on the wedding night, and some of those I know I've never seen.

Because she's been married before and not all women burn their lingerie from earlier marriages (like my sister and another gal I know did), I realize she may have had those longer than she's known me.

But still, I just wonder why she has them and doesn't wear them for me.

Also, the number of lingerie items is interesting. It's much larger than the average number of times per year she wears lingerie for me times 7 years. It's anywhere from 2-3 times that number.

Nevertheless, I can accept your points as being possibly the reasons why.

The one thing I don't get is...why GIVE me (in front of the girls) a piece of lingerie, insist I open it then and there, and never wear THAT? She's not that shy. Yes, she does seem to prefer being naked to wearing lingerie, but we went out of town in July just the two of us, and she wore again an item I bought her for Valentine's Day, knowing that I liked it.

It's just this particular purchase. This bothers me!

Thanks for your thoughts. :-)

You could always try the direct approach:

Lay it all out there, everything you've observed.
OM's birthday in her work calendar.
Lingerie you don't recognize.
Showers upon arriving home on Mondays.

No accusations, no drawing of conclusions, just a factual list of observances.

Then tell her you are uneasy, unsure, and need her help.
Tell her she can help you by:
1) Telling you if there is anything she's keeping secret
2) Taking a polygraph

IF you go this route, schedule the poly and follow through with it. Don't bluff. If you bluff, you'll only teach her that lying and sticking to your lies pays off.

Sadly, it seems that that is an approach that SNS rarely, if ever, employs in his M.

Why didn't he just ask his W to put on his BD gift?

My guess is she was waiting for a gentle nudge in that direction from him or a word of encouragement. Like, "Baby, I can't wait to see this on you!"

Instead he said nothing, asked nothing... and has chosen to stew about it for weeks...until he now says he feels it was "a cruel joke".

That's a great idea! Actually, I did try that. Although I was gentle and considered in my approach, I got gaslighted in return. "I have no idea. Birthday? Who's? I don't know how that got in there! How did you find out about it?" etc...


That's what started all this: Finding what appeared to be lingerie in the dryer that I've never seen. Turns out, she's got lots more in her drawer, and g-string panties in her panty drawer I haven't seen, too.

"It's not lingerie, it's just a shirt! I wear it in layers, with these other things" -- Okay, but it could be worn alone as lingerie, too.


I tried that, that's how I was able to start MC. She said I needed help, that she didn't. Then later, when she found out I was going, wanted to go too, although initially she said she had no interest.


I did ask #1. She said "no" while covering her mouth with her hand.

Pretty sure #2 would end the M...

Thank you so much for the hasty judgement! Your statement is also untrue. I have tried the direct approach starting with the unexplained spending and secretive activity regarding her bank account. She only gets defensive and gaslights me.


I didn't know I had to! Why didn't she "present" that gift to me on display, like most women do for their H/SO's? Who has to be told to do so?


Well, maybe I'm wrong on that count. Maybe I should still ask, but if history is any guide, I'll probably get gaslighted again, unless it really was just a joke and she says so...

So you really never got any encouraging responses from your overtures. Why didn't you pursue an answer that would be satifactory to you? For example, the polygraph: Taking one will 'end the marriage'?? Whyever would that be??

Or her answer to No. 1: Did you pursue that? Why not? Did you not ask more questions, like "I feel you're being evasive. Have you done anything that would encourage me to feel that way?"
Or the birthday: who writes down a person's birthday and then has no knowledge of it??

I dunno, SNS. I've always gotten the feeling from your posts that you 'want' to know, but you 'don't want to know.' Hells bells, my friend, I would have nailed my WHs A to the wall with as much lead time as you've had! But it seems like you continue to stop just short of where you need to be when you're communicating with her. Not trying to be mean, just trying to understand.

If your wife would rather divorce you than take a polygraph then that means she is either:
1) More invested in her pride than in nurturing you
2) Hiding something that she doesn't want discovered

It is your choice as to whether or not you want to stay married to a person like that. Nobody here will judge you one way or the other, because we don't walk in your shoes.

But, supposing you DID ask for a poly and supposing she DID refuse... do you want to be married to her?

If not, push for the polygraph because at best you'll have the truth and at worst you'll have your decision made and the anguish over.

If you would stay married to her regardless, that's a tougher nut to crack. I wouldn't push the poly if you aren't willing to D over non-compliance. That would only teach her that resistance is a good shield to hide behind.

She would say that I don't trust her, that I obviously don't love her (and actually, she said that when I pursued the Vendor OM Bday issue and asked her more than once if he were here in June. She initially answered that she didn't know, and kept stonewalling me on that up to the "you don't love me!").


I did pursue it! Until the point of her sobbing convulsively about me not believing her, and I felt like a jerk for tormenting her.

On the one hand, I've read here and elsewhere that this tactic is common among WW's to get the BS to back off. On the other hand, I've considered that, if she were innocent, then I really would be a jerk to continue tormenting her with questions! I couldn't live with that. So, I back off, just like she wants.

MC said not to be so concerned about the tears. I don't know I'm supposed to ignore that. I don't want to create the very reality that I've been suspecting, and one of my BFF's has warned me against that. I tend to agree with his warning.


I can assure you that I really do want to know! It is very evident to me that she isn't going to tell me what happened in June, even if it was "only" an innocent crush or something.

I asked her at the end of he first week of not working how she was. She said, "I don't know, I'm still trying to remember who I was...before all this!" The last time she used the phrase "all this" was right after the very first Big Fight on June 30th about the finances. She was already working on a defense against accusation of adultery back then, even though I hadn't yet made one. Things like that make me wonder why. She was married before to men who cheated on her, so maybe that's why. I really don't know.

MB,

One other thing -- I don't think you're being mean. I appreciate your response.

(I DO think Marshmallow was being mean with her last post -- no longer even talking TO me, but talking ABOUT me to others in derogatory terms. Some might call that slander or gossip, something Christ warned us not to do. Marshmallow, are you listening?)

[quote=StillNotSure
She would say that I don't trust her, that I obviously don't love her (and actually, she said that when I pursued the Vendor OM Bday issue and asked her more than once if he were here in June. She initially answered that she didn't know, and kept stonewalling me on that up to the "you don't love me!").

On the one hand, I've read here and elsewhere that this tactic is common among WW's to get the BS to back off. On the other hand, I've considered that, if she were innocent, then I really would be a jerk to continue tormenting her with questions! I couldn't live with that. So, I back off, just like she wants.

MC said not to be so concerned about the tears. I don't know I'm supposed to ignore that. I don't want to create the very reality that I've been suspecting, and one of my BFF's has warned me against that. I tend to agree with his warning.

[/quote]

Okay, I'm going to put myself in your W's shoes for a sec, just to check the fit: You come to me, telling me things that indicate that, for whatever reason, you feel some concern about my fidelity. My FIRST response, and my ONLY response, will be to reassure you that I am completely faithful to you. I won't do that with tears, recriminations, pretty pouting, or anything else. My concern is that YOU are concerned. You want me to take a polygraph? Okay, honey, if you need that than I will do that for you. Or I might lay out all of my 'private' info (passwords, etc) or I might throw in that you are welcome to follow me around 24/7 until you reach a point of comfort in my fidelity. I'd more than likely do ALL of the above. No biggie. I have nothing to hide.

Don't allow her to manipulate you into submission with any emotional antics that are designed to drive your fears underground. It sounds like that is what she is doing.

Having a 6-yr-old together makes me unwilling to D over non-compliance, so using this standard, I should not push for a polygraph.

Honestly, as bad as things got this summer (and last), if I knew either 1 or 2 above were true and we did NOT have a child together, I would have pushed a lot harder and not cared as much (and probably would have ended up divorced and, while I'm sure that would have hurt, it wouldn't hurt as much as not being able to tuck my 6-yr-old into bed every night, which would be the case now).

NOTE! This is not to say that I would tolerate an active A! If I knew one were still going on now (and I don't think there is, but I am still being watchful), I would start planning for plan B/D implementation and setting a date.

At this point, I don't think I'm ever going to know what happened in June. Although, I did run across vendor OM's wife's FB profile this weekend. I wasn't even looking for it, but found it because vendor OM's business partner is a name twin of a friend of mine from HS. Weird thing: Her pic (with their two D's) is on her profile, but he does not have his pic on his...and they are not each other's friend, although they both have the business partner as a friend. I'm not aware of them being split up or anything. SOOOOooooo tempting to just "howdy" her, but I'm sure he'd hear about it, then my W would, too. I don't have a plan for that yet...

I wouldn't, in your shoes. Never start something you're not willing to finish and all that.

I will tell you that living with this elephant under the living room rug is going to be exhausting. Like you didn't already know that.

Would your wife go to a MB weekend with you?
I'd not recommend it if she were actively involved in an affair but it kinda sorta pretty much looks like maybe she's not. In any case a MB weekend would give you direct access to the Harleys in the special forum for as long as you need.

MB,

So, is it that you are just more reasonable and mature than my W? What you say above seems very reasonable to me.

Is my W manipulating me because she really did have an A (EA or PA)? Or could it just be her immature way of handling conflict?

There's something about your post that just slapped me in the face (as in, realization)!

I want to be clear, though: I want to know the truth so that I can act on it. I don't want to be guilty (however inadvertently) of manufacturing a scenario of adultery where it doesn't exist, just to explain some of the bizarre behavior she's been doing (which she and others have suggested are a result of pre-menopause. Although one guy here pointed out that premeno doesn't make you record other men's Bday's in your calendar). She already knows I have suspected adultery, and she knows that I've been watching her, although I don't know if she's even close to realizing just how far or how often. I'm trying to let things slide so hopefully she'll stop thinking that, and THEN see what she does.

You know, I've said before that I didn't think so because I couldn't even get her to finish reading HNHN or FWO (the latter a pretty short read), but...

After joined me in MC, she did say that she thinks our church does MB Weekends around Valentine's Day and that she WOULD like to do one together. So, there's hope!

I don't know how she'll deal with things like PORH which I've already described to her. She has said she doesn't believe in that, that there are some things that would only create or further conflict if they were told, so she admits she doesn't tell me things. Maybe MBW will get her thinking about it in a different light?

I do keep tripping over that elephant, by the way. Gets me into trouble, especially when he hollers and wakes up the kids... ;-D

And agreed, I don't think she is. Although I have noticed some other strange spending behavior. It can't last. I'm no longer putting money in her private account since she stopped working, so if she continues to spend, she'll eventually have to tap into the joint account, and I WILL be asking questions if that happens...