Hold i would urge you to see a doc. there a many meds that might be able to help you and they all work different for different people. Just because you did nt seem to think it helped before does nt mean it wont help now!!! Just give it a chance and maybe everybody will be glad you did.This has got to be affecting them.

Hi Hold.

So I read your "either/or" statement. And, of course, I certainly am of the opinion that your wife's history of sexual abuse affects your sexual relationship today...

I often think in the same way of my husband's disinterest... Either he's simply not attracted to the real-life me (and only was in the early months when it was new), or he doesn't really love me, or living with a violent brother made his guard so thick that it's hard to be vulnerable with sex.

HOWEVER...

It is possible that none of our conclusions are correct... And then what do we do? What if our spouses are simply not really interested in sex? What if it actually has NOTHING TO DO WITH US?! What if it's nothing that can ever be fixed?! What if they really and truly do love us, and are as healthy as they can be--only they do not really care to have sex?

I think that is a far scarier reality to live with. I mean, if it's because of how I look, or something that I'm doing, at least there is a chance that one day, our sex life will improve. If there's something wrong with him, well, there is also a chance that one day he will find peace/healing and be more free to explore a positive sex life.

But if he is simply not interested. I mean, if this is all he's got, and I have no carrot big enough to dangle to interest him in engaging in SF... then what do we do?

That's more painful than whether or not she is rejecting you. SHe is NOT rejecting you, Hold. She knows you want sex, but she simply cannot compute how deeply her disinterest hurts you. She can't relate, because she does not think that way, feel that way, and even if you can communicate in a way so that she DOES understand, she will probably never change.

She could love you fiercely, and never have any more interest in sex than she does now. SHe could love you more than she has ever loved anyone in her life, and it simply never stimulate her sexually. Ever. And that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with you.

When we first got married, my husband was excited about sex. For about 3 months. Then I saw the decline--and I soon realized how he was able to stay celibate for so long. He simply doesn't feel desire with anything near the frequency that I do. I mean it can be months and months and months (we are, after all, averaging 1 time of intercourse every 2 1/2 years) before he is aroused. And he has no interest in arousing me in any way other than sex, and only when he is interested which, as I said is seldom.

I have spent years thinking that it was me. That I had done something to kill his interest in this area. Or there was some way he was wounded that inhibits him.

I didn't. There isn't.

He just isn't interested.

How do we live with that? How do we make our lives full and complete and wonderful when we are living with someone who chooses not to engage us sexually? I have a vivid and active imagination. I have so many ideas for things that would be fun and interesting... But even without doing anything extra, I am just happy to touch and be touched, and have it culminate in SF!

I do love my husband. But sometimes I hate him. And sometimes I deeply resent that I am in this kind of marriage--one where an important EN and aspect of our relationship is never going to be fulfilled. One that I was so looking forward to for so long.

However, you and I have a choice, my friend. And it isn't about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. It's getting to the point where our life is full enough and happy enough so that we can live well without SF--at least until you (we?) have ended our marriages.

Does this make sense? I think I'm rambling. ANd daughter's bus will be here in a few minutes.

Telly:

Excellent point. I have spent enormous time on another discussion board (that Stella / Baba pointed me to years ago) exploring those issues.

I think it is possible for some people to love intensely but not have much interest in sex. Many people are like that. There is nothing wrong with them. They do not have a "defect" that has to be "cured". They are just different than those of us who desire sex intensely. And it is just as likely that those of us who desire sex intensely have a "defect" that needs to be "cured" (such as low self esteem or depression that we are trying to medicate through sex / orgasms).

As Starfish has pointed out here several times, many people desire sex intensely during the early stages of a relationship while PEA is coursing through their brains. Later, when the PEA is replaced by oxytocin (as occurs naturally in most humans during long term relationships), those people stop desiring sex so intensely. Those people do not consciously pull a "bait and switch". They truly want sex at the beginning and they do not consciously choose to stop wanting sex later. But the change (albeit natural) can cause tremendous pain even if both people understand the mechanism.

There are not always pleasant solutions to a large and persistent mismatch in libido. It can and often does destroy relationships. Doesn't have to. But needs to be handled with grace. Which people involved in mismatches often find difficult to offer each other.

My relationship problems are no longer about sex, although that continues to be a problem in our relationship. My life problem is no longer about my relationship, although that continues to be a problem as well.

My problem is that I am so depressed I don't even want to seek help to stop being depressed. I have accepted that I am going to be unhappy for the rest of my life and am not motivated to do anything to change my trajectory. That problem has is not Mrs. Hold's fault. It is on me. And she can't solve it. Only I can.

But first I have to want to solve it.

I don't know, Hold.

If you can force yourself to turn off the alarm, take a shower, dress, eat, and go to work everyday...then I think you can force yourself to gather your lab results and medical information and make an appointment.

Don't worry about feeling the urge to seek help. I am sure there are plenty of days you don't feel the urge to go to work either. You just do it because you have to.

It occurred to me that the holidays are here, and there are many people who become depressed during those weeks. Could be that for someone who is mildly depressed, the sitch can become even worse.

I know for me, the holidays are always stressful - Could this be compounding your depression as well?

I would like to weigh in here. I had the low libido husband. He insisted it was "just the way he was" and had nothing to do with me.

1. It took me three years to believe him
2. Another few years to work the problem out
3. We had to both LOVE each other enough to fight thru it.

I feel that if a person marries you and claims to love you, they will and should do everything, whatever is needed....to try and make you happy.

If that thing that you need,, (which most married people need and expect) is SEX, then whatever they believe about it or whatever they hate about it, they must find a way to meet YOUR sexual needs. If they love you they will pleasure you, learn to pleasure you, take care of you in the sex department, and set aside what they want or do not want.

In addition, I know that a grown man who wants or has very little sex MUST KNOW HE IS NOT THE NORM> He must know from teaching marriage classes, or how other men talk about sex....or from being in the WORLD, that HE IS ABNORMAL for wanting sex only once every few years. He has to know this. If he does not know how abnormal he is then he is crazy.

So, this man, who is outside the norm, also HAS TO KNOW THAT HIS WIFE HAS NORMAL MARITAL SEXUAL NEEDS. He has to know it and he HAS TO ACTIVELY IGNORE HER in order to justify his extreme sexual neglect.

Our solution was this. My husband asks to make love whenever he wants "it" (and since we talked about having differing desires) then, he told me to ask WHENEVER I want sex and he will honor my request and respect and love me by giving me the pleasure and physical closeness I want right when I ask or very soon after, like the same day I ask.

I have learned new ways of asking for sex that allow some flexibility:

1. Honey how bout some loving? Tonight or tomorrow morning (gives him a choice)
2. Lets go upstairs and cuddle (can lead to sex or the cuddling is nice too)
3. Want some sex tomorrow morning? (specific time is good sometimes)
4. Feel like some sex? (now)
5. Feel like some sex? (now but could agree to postpone it)
6. We get to bed and sometimes we choose what we want to do there.

There are so many ways to ask for sex, also some non verbal ways. Once you start getting regular sex again, you can relax the schedule and rules and allow flexibility. Getting used to asking for sex is half of it. Having a loving spouse is the main thing.

It is only fair if one partner wants a huge plate of food and the other partner only wants a tiny plate of food, that both get to eat whatever they want. If one wants to paint the room blue and the other one wants to paint it red, then a compromise is in order.

Yet, sex is not food, sex is way more important than who paints what.... a certain color....and it takes a LOVING spouse to help the other spouse have the sex they want. So, both spouses have to determine what is going on and work together to solve the problem.

1. Both spouses, the High libido and Low libido spouse, must sit down and figure out exactly what is happening or not happening in the sexual area.

2. Then, both must tell the other one thier needs.

3. Then, both must sit down and honor the other one's needs

4. Then, a schedule must be worked out or another solution derived in order to meet BOTH PEOPLE"S NEEDS.

5. If one partner is asexual, this can be dealt with but must be faced.

6. IF both people do not face this issue, it will never get better.

7. These steps HAVE TO BE CONTINUED until the PROBLEM IS SOLVED OR A WORKOUT IS COMPLETED.


Can you, will you, be brave and persisitant enough to face this issue head on? Or will you continue to back down and live with constant sexual neglect?

Bubbles:

As always, thank you for the love and for the fire and outrage on my behalf that I find difficult to summon within myself.

Mrs. Hold and I are way beyond where sex is the issue we need to address first. At this point, her offering more sex would be counter-productive. I would not be able to accept her offer as a loving gesture. I cannot achieve or maintain erections, even with viagra. So I now view sex as a negative experience. I need to heal myself before we can heal the sex problem between us.

HOLD this is what we see on the other board. One persons sexual dysfunction is like a bad disease that spreads to the other, previously healthy spouse.

You need to get away from her. She is so bad for you. Being with that user has ruined your already shakey self esteem. Staying with her continues the ruination of it.

Hold, I forget. Does MrsHold know about MB? Is she aware of LBs and ENs? If so, have you ever described to her how she could change so that it would build up your love bank again? As in stop LBing you and meet your ENs? Is she aware that you have stopped loving her and that she could possibly reverse that?

Cat, she was on MB for a while, the coldest poster who was ever here. Also, she has had 12 years counseling about 4 were MB based. She responded to NONE of it. She is one cold woman.

I wish there was some way to REACH the MRS.

I'm only asking because NOW, when Hold is finally being honest with her about leaving her, she is finally saying and doing things that five years ago may have touched him. Tells me that just maybe she really loves and wants him enough to be ready to stop being so spoiled and selfish. Just maybe.

But if he doesn't point out HOW she could change, she might never know what to do. We've all seen people here ready to leave, dead to their spouse, and the spouse changes things up, and the poster is astounded to find out his/her love really was still there, just buried under a lifetime of hurt.

Can't hurt to tell her such things. Even if today he doesn't want her back any more.

These days, I wish there was some way to reach me.

It is the ultimate irony. She was more loving this past weekend than at any time I can remember. But I am now unmoved by her gestures. Too little too late. I have become so messed up inside my head that even though I can intellectually see that her actions are intended to be loving, and that I would have felt loved if she had done then earlier, I don't feel loved now.

Before the reunion, she asked why I was going. I think she feared that I was hoping to reconnect with an old flame. I told her (truthfully) that there were no old flames to rekindle. I never dated anyone from my high school class. I only dated 2 or 3 girls, all very briefly. A couple who went to different schools. And then a sophomore when I was a senior. So there were no "rivals" at the reunion. She was surprised. I guess she never realized how alone I was during high school. When I said I did not date during high school, she didn't realize I meant I LITERALLY never dated any of my classmates.

She seemed to be very compassionate when I admitted that it felt good, in a wierd way, to see that I really did not have any close friends in high school. That it meant I wasn't totally psychotic. That the isolation and alienation I felt at the time were at least partly real.

She expressed worry that our son is the same way. Many acquaintances but no close friends. She is worried that he will end up like me. I told her not to worry. He often gets invited to parties, and goes. He has gone to more parties in the first 3 months of freshman year than I did all 4 years of high school combined. Very different. She felt reassured about S15. And worse for me.

Obviously her reaching out to stroke me and have sex with me yesterday were meant to be healing. Not totally her fault that I have twisted myself to the point that even sex with her is now a negative experience. That I cannot perform even with pharmacological assistance.

The scariest part is that I don't even feel suicidal. There was a time when ED would have made me anxious and despondent. Now I am just numb. I failed. So what. What else is new? BTDT. I don't need to kill myself to make the pain stop. I already don't feel anything.

Except tremendous rage at myself for throwing my life away. But I figure that dedicating myself to continued failure is appropriate punishment for that.

Oh hold.

You have to get some help.

I have been reading/posting to you now for 9 years. You matter to me (and many others here--and undoubtedly in real life).

Have you ever watched the movie "The Game" with Micheal Douglas? It's a really good movie. I think you should watch it.

(((((Hold))))))
Please get help, dear hold.

Hold, you might have missed my last post. Could you respond please? Thanks.

Nope. It is about perceived psychological cost, not energy required.

If what you posted were true, then we could tell all the lower libido spouses at MB "if you can force yourself to do the laundry or yard work, then you can take half the time to have sex with your spouse." Doesn't work that way.


Yes, seasonal depression tends to occur this time of year. Affects many people. Sorryt o hear it affects you.

Not my issue. I don't get depressed because it is dark. Or because of the holidays. I am depressed because the last "milestone" between now and high school graduation has passed. And I realize where my plans have me headed. And I don't want to go there. But I don't want to change course, either.

Depression is rejection of responsibility. I don't have the guts to take charge of my life. Or to own up to my responsibilities. So I go numb. And refuse to admit they matter. But they do. No matter how firmly I push my fingers into my ears.

Hold,

Who says I am talking about physical energy required? Actually, I was talking about the emotional energy.

You go to work for your family - so that you can provide for them, right? Why would you not see a doctor so that you can be a more productive member of the family and a better father? (shrugging here and not seeing much of a difference).

You're a bit off on the milestone thing - you skipped over first dates, driving, and prom. Anyway...doesn't look to me like I'm helping much here.

I do think you should find someone who will work with you to find the type of medication that will work for your body, and I think you would do well to find an individual counselor. I'm not a professional, but some of the things you've said make me think there could be more to this than mild depression.

Does depression run in your family? Wouldn't you like to get this straightened out in case it does and in case your children may be predisposed? You obviously love them and are concerned about them. Why show love and concern with some issues and not with others?

I think you need some friends.

I know that requires "work". But my gosh, hold. You are funny, interesting, smart, charming--and you even have a lot of "pluck" regarding certain things (remember the walk in women's shoes?).

You deserve to laugh, and be lighthearted sometimes. To be celebrated and enjoyed by friends, and with friends.

I think that would be the best kind of help you could get.

Does it matter that people here care about you? :-(

I wish I could do something for you.

Hold,

Man we're in the same boat. I feel for you and I can relate to even not wanting SF at times and I'm getting to the point that I am having a harder and harder time getting... well hard.

Yes, too little too late.

Hold,

You nailed your depression really well...disowning yourself. Gotta hurt...cause a lot of anger at the injustice you do to yourself...and self is gonna hurt until it's numb of hurting.

You know this.

Would you act for your own benefit if forced to?

Someone did this for me...radical honesty...when a relative turned to my DH and said, "Are you going to divorce her? Aren't you miserable with her depression?" Then she turned to me and said, "Snap out of it."

I did...I used the fake it til ya make it way of acting and having new feelings follow....because what followed her asking my DH if he were going to divorce me due to misery...really shocked me.

You might get your wish fulfillment...that horrible false payoff you're gunning for...where Mrs Hold decides to divorce you, accept a much lower lifestyle, because your misery cuts her to the bone...which would make you right, wouldn't it?

In a way, don't you hate her loving you, instead of hating you like you hate yourself? She can't even do that for you, can she? You may long for feeling very loved and very comfortable being despised...which is why it's a choice.

Your loving feelings follow your own loving actions. You went to the reunion and validated you weren't nuts...and you matched your self-image with other images and came home to the one woman in the world who knows you all over...all your parts...and she embraced you, listened to you "share" (not debrief) and made love to the real you...

No wonder you don't feel anything...you didn't act and have the feelings follow. You expected them from the outside, again, and they didn't come in.

What if now, Hold, you can look again at all that rejection you saw as coming in from the outside...and see it wasn't...might make you mistaken...and end up being loved, anyway.

Because you are, have been and will be. Get out of your own way. Ask Mrs Hold to HELP you...tell her you've self-injured too long to do it for you...ask her to get you to where you need to be...to take charge, because you're sick of depression...

LA

I agree that Hold has many qualities that draw us back over and over again. He writes well, describes himself and his situation in a way that is easily comprehended too. Journaling may be a good outlet for someone with such skills.

I also think that despite the things Mrs. Hold may or may not have done to affect Hold's feelings, he still has a responsibility to protect his family from the depression. I don't see that.

Maybe I don't understand depression well enough. That could be it. All I know is that he's perfectly capable of articulating his feelings here, not all without humor. He's a functional human being and father, holding a job, going to Temple, involved in outside activities, etc. etc.

What this seems to boil down to, despite what Hold is saying, is that he's very angry - so angry that it has had a strangle hold on his heart and has cut off the circulation to his feelings. He's coming across at this point as apathetic, but his heart is actually in a state of torsion. jmho.

Hold...if you won't see anyone for ADs, how do you feel about starting to train again for something - getting some real physical exercise - the kind that makes the sweat run in rivulets, and maybe some good Hatha yoga to give it balance? Also, what about foods that help combat depression? Ever look into that?