Bother,

Having read through this thread I have a few things to comment on if you and others don't mind.

1. I get what you are saying about advice being more "charitable" toward women than men.

I believe that even happens on this site, but the reason is probably not the reason you are saying. The reason I have seen is often a female BS will respond who is in great pain and is bordering on "all men are bad" and they will offer suggestions that suggest you could do more for your marriage. It will sound pretty strident to you as it should. However, what she is saying is true you should. However, that does not address what your w is doing or not doing for the marriage.

2. I think if you read Dr. Harley, see Dr. Phil, and listen to other people many come from the point of few that a man is "the head of the household" and therefore is held to a higher standard with regard to who takes what action to save a marriage. This is part of the Christian ethic, and has been discussed at great length on this site. What is not often discussed is the woman's role in a good marriage, and it isn't clothing, cleaning and cooking. Most here know that.

3. You and others need to remember that just because someone says something is bad, it isn't necessarily so. That is for you to figure out. Most men are chastized for being too assertive, but that claim is made to effectively neuter men. Please see Mel's posts for a counterpoint arguement to this PC thinking.

4. You seem to forget that women are smart. IF they can get the milk for free why buy the cow? Right? Men are no different. You need to change up the game a bit, but something she has not seen in a while. Firm, hard, and stating your expectations (not demands) while being kind, caring, and helpful to her.

5. You are here, and it is only you we are talking to so you are going to get advice as to what YOU can do, no matter if your W is doing nothing or everything.

6. You need to remember that plan A is not part of a marriage formula but for addressing the affair. You meet needs, avoid LB's, and set boundaries without expecting to have your EN's met. That IS part of plan A. However, plan A is a "short term" activity because it requires you to ignore your "taker" and use only your "giver". This will not work long term because it builds resentment, (sound familar???), it should.

What it takes for a good marriage is a "BALANCE" between the giver and taker for both your W and you. That balance is achieved after the affair is over, and she is through with withdrawal. If it is not achieved, then I would suggest you endure and suffer, or you stand up and walk. However, that balance does take time and open honest discussions between you and your W about what each of you want and need from the other. IF she cannot/will not/ wants not to meet those needs then YOU have decisions to make.

Does any of this sound like us guys are being abused in the MB approach? I don't think so. You are just expecting a balance while in plan A, and that is not the purpose or intent of plan A.

I am old school Bother, meaning I was raised in the military, trained in the military, was in the military, and old enough to have grown up in the 40's, 50's, and 60's. I don't have a high regard for feminism, because it is "victim" based and I don't find "victimhood" interesting, redeeming, or valid when it comes to social balance in this country.

You have control of your life, use the tools you have to make it better, that includes what you learn here, your brains, and your experience. It is really on you, your W cannot make decisions for you.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Your W had a history of some kind of sexual abuse, right?

That's a tough thing to overcome...especially w/o help.

Bother,
It's been 3 mos since Dday for you. Is your top EN Sf and that is why you are so frustrated? I've learned here that men who are SFrustrated will blame everything in the M as being wrong when it really is one specific EN not being met (SF). Is this the case with you? I believe the first six months are the worst for both BS and WS trying to R a M. I also think it is sad to stay in a M for the sake of the kids - what does that teach them about M and relationships?

One more thing - your WS has a master's degree and she wouldn't be able to support herself?

Gg

While it is sad to stay for the kids, I think both parents are obligated to do whatever it takes and make a SINCERE effort to make the relationship work for the kid's sake. Mom and dad will get over the divorce - the kids will carry it for the rest of their lives. Doing what my exWW did by abandoning the relationship teaches the kids that the people you care for the most are disposable.

Bravo, Mr. W - you have put your finger on it. This is still very early days, and a continued Plan A is in order while the WW has a chance to defog.

Bother, listen carefully. This is much more important than tossing around accusations of man-bashing.

First, Plan A. Plan A during the affair itself, and during the withdrawal period after.

Second, if the affair continues OR if recovery stalls, go to Plan B.

If you are still in the same position 3-6 months from now as you are today, PLAN B! I would say that whether you were a man or a woman.

Sure seems like you're tarring with a mighty wide brush....

Bother, Wow, I just about fell out of my chair when I read what you wrote about winning the lottery. I have had those thoughts myself. I posted my (very long)story yesterday, and I am in a situation very similar to yours. This thread has been a real eye opener for me. I am getting a better understanding of how the person (FWW) could contribute so little to a marriage, but still have an A, then find ways to blame it on the spouse who contributes so much to the marriage.

______________________

BH me 50
FWW 38
D-day 01-20-09

Bother - you are full of contradictions - you claim to not be MB bashing, yet you very much do bash MB.

You claim that women hold the standard for victimhood, yet here you are - the ultimate victim of the so-called Harley bias against men.

Have you read what's on this site? Have you read the newsletter board, where, on August 6th, he posted an action plan for you to know exactly an exit plan of your own? And a follow up newsletter on August 21st?

The truth of the matter is that we have a culture of laziness. It's not a male or female thing. It's just lazy. Employers get stuck with it and fear firing a lazy person because of litigation. So they play doormat and allow lazy people to sap their companies of resources and morale.

And marriages like yours - it's laziness on the part of your wife. And you enable her thinking you're following the directions of Harley when you're reluctant to do ALL of Harley's Plan. There is a Plan A, which you claim to be doing, but there's a manly side of Plan A where they don't play doormat or wear their zippers on the side.

The best Plan A I ever saw done by a betrayed husband was Runnerboy65 - the day he caught WW and OM in his home, he tossed their clothes out on the lawn and ordered OM out of his house! He played from a place of strength - knowing he was worth respect and honor in his home and required it of her.

Some Betrayed Husbands here make me think they need a manhood transplant. They come here and do a pseudo Plan A, but don't step up with big brass ones and meet the "be the man" emotional need. That's called the "attractive spouse" emotional need, by the way, in case you didn't figure out which part of Plan A you left out.

There's still time. You can read the two newsletters I've recommended. And then put together an action plan that includes ALL of Plan A - including reclaiming your masculinity!

I'd love this article to be written and for my H to read it. I wouldn't consider it cruel or manipulative - a very useful tool

The reason that empowerment through victimhood won't work for MEN is because women see right through it. We laugh it off because we know it is a manipulation tactic. But what does work is when you call us on our own games and refuse to play. Women who play this game are little tyrants and their power is completely dependent upon the man's willingness to play. If he won't play, she has no [reduced] power.

I very much agree that men have been conditioned to believe that they are "controlling" or "abusers" if they defend themselves. They need to learn to be more discerning.

The WW has a lot of advantages that a WH does not have. Mainly, all a WW has to do to get the husband out of the house is to go to the courthouse and say the 6 magic words:

"I am affraid of my husband"

With this, a WW can accomplish the following with only about $500 in attorney fees:

- get husband out of the house
- get temporary orders for visitation which are less than state guidelines
- require husband to maintain two homes
- by proxy, support the OM which happened in my situation

I got very lucky in my situation because my exWW is so in the fog that she only acts in the best interest of POSOM. If she was a little savier and thought about herself, I would have been reduced to every other weekend dad all because I walked in on them and told POSOM to get out of my house and she said "she was affraid". If you are a WH and your BW walks in on you, it would be much more difficult for a WH to get a TRO because he is "affraid" of his spouse who walked in on him with another woman.

Heck, I think my exWW telling me she wants a divorce two days after I got a vasectomy is just about the cruelest, most controlling thing anyone could do to someone. Yet, there is no recourse for me.

I hope a lot of what you guys are writing is just venting. Was an abused wife and even with protection offered today, many still cannot get out. Yes, women can be abusive as well, but it's far less likely to result in serious injury or death.

That said, the OWH in my sitch did manage to get a restraining order against OW after she ran him over with her truck. This was not the first time she assaulted him. On two other occassions she hit him - once with her hands and once with a candlestick, cutting his face. He didn't do anything about it at the time but he did record it. When she ran him over with the truck, he called the police and his records of the previous assaults meant an instant RO.

Yep, Tabby I agree. Hope this is just venting. Generalistions about people who claim to be abused are dangerous. There are many many women and men who genuinely suffer physically and emotionally at the hands of their partner. They need help. They may be enabling their abusers but until someone helps them and points it out they will stay suffering and worse.

I have people here on MB to thank for that, for showing me how to stop enabling it _ I was WW and I was also abused, before A and since.

I've stopeed enabling the abuse and I am no longer WW - BOUNDARIES is the word we all need to be thinking of here.

WOWZA !

Tabby,

Sorry if I wasn't clear - I think the DV system in the US as a whole is broken because it doesn't protect those that really need it. It's become a very effective and efficient negotiating tool in divorce proceedings because of the relief that can be granted with minimal evidence. Witness my situation. I don't think a restraining order is going to stop someone with the intent to cause grave harm.

Good post. The courts do a good job with physical abuse because there is evidence. Emotional abuse is much more difficult to prove and pinpoint. In my case, I am always in fear of any face to face exchange with exWW due to the false TRO's she's filed against me. I shouldn't have to carry a digital voice recorder at a kid exchange.

Oh I'm not saying you're wrong PSU. The same crap happens here in Canada as well and it's something that really burns me up. These procedures were put in place to protect people who truly need them and then some bimbo comes along and takes advantage of it. The end result is the authorities now question or look down on those who use them and true victims are left feeling ashamed. It's very, very sad that women will do this to other women.

And no, you shouldn't have to carry a digital recorder at a kid exchange but I understand why you do.

BINGO! This is exactly my sentiment, Tabby. Women who have played the victim card make life hard for those who are really abused. Now, when a women cries abuse, one has to make sure she is not actually the one doing the abuse. I LOATHE women who do that. LOATHE.

In your experience Mel, does it often happen that the woman that cries abuse is the abuser? If a woman cries abuse do you at first assume she is abused or abuser?


ITA

Bit of a t/j Bother. soz.

I don't assume. But around here it has been the rule, rather than the exception that the claims of "abuse" are false.