Sorry, more T/J but this will stop me from sleeping tonight if i don't at least ask the Q. Mel, do you see my claim of "abuse" as false?

Actually, I reckon I'm going to need an answer too.

That's because those who are truly abused are too afraid to report it. Or too cowed. Or too hopeless of change.

ST, I don't know enough about your story to answer that, but if I was going to speculate, I would say NO, and I will tell you why. I have not seen you trot out an "abuse" story to justify adultery. It's when that happens that my suspicions go up. It would SURPRISE me if your story was false, because you are not foggy and have been extremely honest here.

Says who? I was abused in my first marriage and this does not describe me at all.

The perticularly nebulous "emotional abuse" allegations from the WS, or the N"neglected emotional needs " allegations from them are highly suspect.
After all, they have laready demonstrated through their cheating that they lie readily. And, with, a Harley states, infidelity being a verysevere form of emotional abuse, particularly the gaslighting and blme shifting, Ican see why their claims are highly suspect.
And, like some othe men have mentioned, when I first started reading Harley's stuff, I felt there was way more emphasis on BHs not meeting certain emotional needs. As has been pointed out, the very fact that their is a "WhyWomen Leave Men" section , with no counterpart for men, is disturbing.

I think PEOPLE (male and female both) are capable of inflicting emotional abuse and there is no one more vulnerabe to that abuse than a spouse. Everyone else in a relationship would chalk it up to a person not knowing what he/she is talking about.

I think the real problem arises when the spouse starts to believe the husband/wife's comments as truth rather than the power play it really is. Strength comes from within, not without, even from the spouse.

Sorry, this is probably another one of my posts that does not make any sense at all. In any case, I am feeling fabulous lately and not at all vulnerabe to any emotional abuse that H may care to try and heap onto me.


AM

There are a few good sites for men dealing with abusive women that will help men do what Mel is suggesting. It was very helpful to me to read the stories of other men who have been verbally and emotionally abused in their relationships.
Most of these guys are as Mel described, way too passive and tolerant.
It is a difficult situation, no doubt, as ofetn, initially, the abuser did not show this side of herself during courtship.
BPD and NPD people are extremely adept at mirroring and masking their tendencies. And, they are also very adept at making their partners believe that the problem lays entirely with the partner.

I read a lot about the personality disorders on the suggestion of my lawyer, a classmate who was a Social worker before going into law. My therapist, independently also told me to look into them.
At the time I consulted these folks, I had never heard of disorders. And, I was chasing myself, trying , to no avail to satisfy whatever demansds my wife was making. I slept in a seperate bedroom, so she could have our kids in our bed. I worked three jobs to keep up with her spending , to no avail. I watched the kids at night and got them to bed, so shecould have free time,which was used to cheat.
I am the first to admit, I was weak and a doormat.
Hopefully, now, I am wiser not only in spotting the signs these types display early on that indicate what is to come.
There is really an arcgetype of this type of individual and, if you do your homework and look at their pasts, their family relationships, their work history and credit, you will be ready to run, hopefully.
This applies to the men NPD and BPD folks, too.

There reason there is a "why women leave men" section is because most divorces are initiated by women, and there is often a common pattern whether or not there is an affair. You should read the article as it is very informative.

Despite that disparity, Tabby, there is still enough of a significant number of men who leave to warrant a similar dialogue.Just look at all the guys responding to this post and the men here who have had to leave.

In my sitch, the extended family on both sides called BS on exWW's "claims" of abuse. She said she had been physically, mentally, and verbally abused for years. Yet, the first time anyone heard of it was AFTER her affair was outed. This is from the same person who talked to her twin sister for 45 minutes daily. What is really laughable is my exWW being afraid of me yet her POSOM was arrested and plead guilty to DV against his 73 year old father for an incident that occured WHILE a protection order was in place! My exWW still to this day says POSOM was set up.

In my couple of counseling sessions with Jen, she said that most abusers do not "know" they are abusing their spouse or kids. They'll blameshift, gaslight, etc to either downplay the situation or deny it entirely. I am very skeptical of abuse claims that come from a WW ESPECIALLY when the first anyone hears of them is AFTER the affair is discovered.

Zelmo,

I was a lot like you. Trying to no avail to satisfy my exWW. In her case, it was the horses. For the first 4 years of the marriage, things were controlled - she was working and thus didn't have much time for them. Once DS7 was born and she stayed home, the addiction took over.

She wanted to rent a barn about 45 minutes away - we had a HUGE blowup. I was enforcing boundaries with her and with the horses 45 minutes away, I knew we would never see each other and that would be the end of it. So, the solution was to find the horse farm. All my time, and money was spent improving the place but I never felt nor did she act like she was ever satisfied with what I did or sacrificed.

Phew, just getting to grips with my part in this abuse stuff and all o a sudden I felt doubted. But then my feet are firmly planted back on the ground when you guys comment that the first it comes up is after the A. And then that reminded me out of the blue about how my H's friend picked up on it years ago - how cruelly J spoke to me and treated me, and how my sis hated leaving me with him (we lived away at the time and both friend of J would be house guests frequently). But I was unaware that I was being treated badly...

Anyway, I think i need to get off this thread now.

PSU, I was definitely a doormat. Gotta examine that and fix myself.

Yeah, right. Such insight

Barnboy,

I completely agree with you that the "exit-affair" label is a bulls**t excuse used by WWs and WW-apologists to blame-shift and justify the adultery. Yes, it has no part in the MB program which is largely gender-neutral.

But...there ARE gender differences that exist, not universal but typical, among adulterers, political-correctness aside. No use denying because real life experience proves it and experts in the field, Harleys included, admit to it.

WWs ARE (in general) more difficult to recover a M with
WWs ARE (in general) less likely to end the affair before divorce
WWs ARE (in general) less likely to "cake eat" and do it for less time
WWs ARE (in general) more likely to see their affair as a replacement for their marriage.
WWs ARE (in general) more likely to initiate & pursue a divorce to be with their lover exclusively


You are kidding yourself to believe otherwise, excuses & rationalizations notwithstanding...

Staytogether, there are other differences between real abuse and a WW's playing a fake abuse card. Abused women simply don't cry out loudly for help. If they are truly being abused, they are far too terrified of their husbands to make a public claim like that. They certainly wouldn't make bold accusations - they would more likely defend their spouse's inappropriate actions and take the blame themselves. When they do ask for help, it is very, very subtle - because if their spouse gets wind of it, they know they are dead.

Staytogether,

I never got the feel you were pulling the abuse card - from reading your posts it seems both you and your BH are "owning your own excrement" in regards to the affair and the DV. Plus, you BH is going through counseling to deal with his issues and seems to be making a sincere effort to improve himself. That in itself SHOWS that DV was an issue.

It's not what happens to you that defines you, you're defined by how you move forward from it and you and your BH are making the right moves to heal from your pasts.

I never viewed the "exit affair" label as an excuse or mitigating the cheatin. Rather, I always viewed it as a cowardly, cruel method of forcing the BS's hand to file and look like the bad person/moving party.
So, I beleive some WSs do employ this technique, as they are conflict avoiders and trying to maintain victim status.

There is seldom ONE abuser in an abusive relationship. Abuse is a cycle and typically both participate in that cycle.

Most are only concerned with physical abuse, or verbal abuse, but discount the emotional abuse that women are experts in dishing out.

Any sort of affair is abusive behavior, according to Dr Harley, so any women (or man) who chooses to have an affair is just acting as a co-combatant in an abusive relationship.

So if someone says they had an affair because of their spouses abuse, remind them that they too are an abuser. So unless they want the abuse the allege their spouse inflicted upon them to be considered valid, they should end the abuse they are now inflicting upon their spouse.

Abuse is never excused, ever. Including the abuse of betraying your spouse.

Very seldom is abuse a one-sided event. It's an escalation, typically by BOTH parties, not just one.

We only focus on the actions of one party, failing to address the damaging acts leading up to the ones society seems to really care about. In other words, ignoring all the other abuse inflicted one upon another.

Anytime a wife tells her husband or child he won't amount to anything, she's abusing him.

Any sort of LB is abuse according to Dr Harley. So anyone who has DJ'ed their spouse, oh say going along with the idea that their ways are better than the ways of their spouse for instance, have engaged in a form of verbal and emotional abuse.

So read my words carefully, a so-called victim never deserves abuse. However, they typically contribute just as much to the circumstance with their own abusive tactics as does their so called abuser.

In other words, both parties are victims and abusers one of another.