Mel, you are right again!!


I have told her that she has made the last two Christmas miserable, my family are coming over, if she is back living at home they will be delighted to see her but if not then she will need to make other plans as I am not having her making people uncomfortable and upset

braeworth, you have a strategic advantage in your hands if you will just use it. Her affair has crumbled but she doesn't see you as a viable alternative because she knows she can use you as a sideline guy while she hunts for better options. She has the freedom to do this because you continue to meet 3-4 minor needs while you assure her you will be the fall back guy.

She won't consider you as a viable marriage option when you have lowered this bar to this level. If you would end all contact now and stop meeting any of her needs, she may come off the fence. And if she doesn't come off the fence, then you don't want her anyway. But, your continued presence keeps her on that fence and gives her no motivation whatsoever to commit to your marriage.

If I were in your shoes, I would go into a DARK Plan B right now just before Christmas. Let her see, over the holidays, what her life will be like as a single person. Deprive her of the benefits of a married person and help her wake up to the reality of her situation.

braeworth, she does not value your marriage in any way, because you have so cheapened the cost of admittance. You have lowered the bar on your marriage that you have negated its value. If you raise the bar, she will likely rise to the occasion. If she won't rise to the occasion, you don't have a marriage anyway.

p.s. go read some of the newsletters in the newsletter forum, brae. Especially When to Call it Quits.

Just spent the last couple days reading this thread from start to finish. Such great support.

It was recommended that I read this thread due to similarities between braeworth and myself. Scary how similar some of the dialogue is. I know how the WW's all tend to read from the same screenplay, but geez, some of this really hit home. That's one reason why it is SO important to read other stories. Hear the same toxic spin.

I am convinced that if I don't follow recommendatiosn similar to those offered here by Mel, Bob, BK, etc, then a year or two from now, I could very well be no better off than braeworth is after his 3 year odyssey. No knock against braeworth intended. More of a knock on myself.

Inclusion in the holiday celebrations? So, so true. "Think of the boys". Yeah, good one. And remind me again WHO moved out?

Didn't mean to T/J. I will be watching this thread closely, though.

Thanks,
TB

That's exactly what I was just going to say.

In fact, you could consider Christmas as your Golden Ticket. The one thing that happens, in all the entire year, that actually has some collateral, some leverage, in getting your WS to see what he/she is up against if he/she chooses that 'perfect life' of a wayward. IMO, there is NO other thing you can do that has as much impact as excluding them from your Christmas (or Hannukah) events.

Ok Folks,

This is starting to bug me, so I might as well lay it out. I have been thinking about this and frankly I don't think plan B as some have suggested is the right way to go. If I am running Brae's life, he would be like me...take NO PRISONERS.

I don't like what has been suggested because it shows WEAKNESS and I cannot stand weakness, victimhood makes me sick.

Everyone hearing me on this? I hope so.

You don't send a namby pamby plan B letter to her. The affair is over, time for games is over. He is NOT trying to protect his love for her, it is low and sinking and probably should be.

What he should do in my mind is simple. He calls her up, invites her over to his house, and instead of telling her something generic like "I don't think the marriage will work", he tells her "how the cow ate the cabbage."

Dear,

I have thought about this alot and I have a few things to say to you.

1. I loved you and still love the woman I thought I married. I don't love how you act now.

2. I am not interested in being married to a woman that thinks marriage is about control, or independent behaviors.

3. I don't like fence sitting people

4. I want to be married to someone that can and will accept my love and return it.

5. I want to be a better husband, but my expectations of a W have risen appropriately.

6. I am sick and tired of playing games with you and your 99.9% there stuff. You are on board or you are not.

7. I have not intention of being around you or being your "friend" if you are not committed to this marriage. So figure out what you want and your words had better match your actions. Until they do, I really don't want anything to do with you.



You do this in a calm, cool, voice with direct eye contact.

You then ask her if she understands what you have said, YES OR NO! and then invite her to leave the house.

No ultimatum's, no mealy mouth statements, no misundertandings.

And then you step back and let her figure it out. You go along with your life, you don't invite her to Christmas as she has made it miserable for the past two years. And you see what she does.

What I am suggesting is NOT A LOVE LETTER, hence it is not plan B. It is not a request, it is a statement of what will and won't be accepted, end of discussion. It is not a negotiation, it is 'radical honesty' without the POJA. There is NOTHING to negotiate.

If you, Brae, get tired of this, file. Life is really simple Brae, you are down to binary decisions for her and for you. Keep it that way now. The nuances of life need to be peeled away and it gets down to your bedrock list of what you expect and what you will deliver. End of discussion.

Dark plan B as specified by Harley is not appropriate, something much harder, clearer, and more binary is required. Look her in the eye and treat her like any man that was moving over your boundaries.

Those are my thoughts on this. I like MB because it is often the antithesis of my natural inclinations which is simply "take no prisoners" physically or emotionally. And while things can be subtle and those aspects of live should be considered and appreciated, there comes a time when subtle is done.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Oddly, this is more like a plan A than a plan B. NO insults, no LB's, no demands, just open honest expression of expections and boundaries. I think that is how he should handle it. Firm, controlled, and very very clear on expectations and boundaries.

JL, what you did is suggest exactly what we are saying, except, for some odd reason, don't want to call it Plan B. In fact, I would incorporate your list in such a letter, which I think is great.

What needs to happen is this:


What is appropriate is a separation, which *IS* Plan B. The time for Plan A is dead and gone. As long as he continues to "date" his own wife and be available to meet her needs, she will continue to use and abuse him and will have no motivation to change.

So, you can call it whatever you want, but what you suggested is exactly what he should do, [and IS Plan B!] with the exception of inviting her over to discuss it. There should be no discussion, no negotiation. The last thing on their minds before he shuts the door should not be a debate over his letter. It should be clean and simple. I think doing it in person is counterproductive because it just sets up an unnecessary debate and then she leaves not even remembering the conditions. A letter precludes all that.


Agree, but no one ever suggested such a thing in the first place. In my experience, when such a letter is going the SECOND TIME around, it should not be a love letter. It needs to be short and sweet, and down and dirty. In fact, Steve Harley helped write such a 2nd time around letter for another member here.


I am confused why you brought up POJA or RH in this context since it has absolutely nothing to do with this situation and even less with Plan B. POJA and RH is a tactic for recovery that has no place here. They are not in recovery.

braeworth, please take the time to go read Dr Harley's newsletter titled "When to Call it Quits" over on the newsletter forum. Dr. Harley recommends Plan B there too.

Even so, when your wife does not comply with the conditions in your original Plan B letter, it means you are in a false recovery and need to go dark again. Meeting her needs in this way is harmful, not helpful.

Mel,

You assumed that I meantt she was out, until. Notice I did not say that, which a plan b letter would imply. I want face to face because it shows her something she has not seen or at least she has not seen lately...A controlled, a firm, a cool, and a determined Brae. A letter cannot do what body language and firm eye contact can do. A letter cannot drop its voice to a low, determined, and focussed level. A letter, no matter how gifted Brae is at writing, cannot convey the message on all levels.

They are talking, she is being civil, she thinks she wants to come back. I am sure he has been polite, empathetic, and doing his best to meet her needs. She is NOT going to argue with him, because this conversation is about HIM, not her. She needs to hear this in person.

IF she tries to argue, he simply invites her to leave, which is actually how she should be treated anytime she starts her independent, "I'm in control of my life" stuff. She needs training and he is the one that will do it, or it will be over.

I brought up POJA and RH because that is exactly how this marriage will recover if it does. He needs to deliver the message in an RH manner, there is nothing to POJA right now.

THis marriage is headed for divorce and frankly I sense that Brae is the one closest to pulling the trigger, because he is tired of being walked on. It is time he changed the game and in MY world, a letter does not do it. His presence is required in this marriage and in this interaction, not a letter.

Hence you are starting to see why I don't call it a plan B. If he approaches it like I suggest he is telling her what is in her future, he is telling her marriage is in her future, he is telling her divorce is in her future, but he is not telling anything but how he feels, what he expects and what he needs.

Cold, hard, emotionalless, and to the point. He firmly places the ball in her hands and tells her to go play with herself or learn the rules and play as a team.

He is NOT walking away, he is not shutting her out, he will not tolerate her current behavior. Her call, her consequences, her decisions. End of story.

So no I am not saying plan B, I am saying that she will be calling plan B on herself, if she behaves in ways that are fence sitting, he won't be around her. Her call, not his.

I hope this makes sense?

JL

t/j:

Just Learning,

I really like your advice and reasoning. If you have the time could you give me advice on how to handle my WS who is currently working abroad? I am currently not bothering with him after Plan A'ing him from afar. I am very close to Plan D.

Thanks

end of t/j

Braeworth,

You and I went through the same thing back in 2007. You have been in Plan A (you were never in plan b) since then. Has it worked......NO!

My M didn't work out. I've since remarried and am happier than ever. You know it makes me cringe just to read your thread. You are saying the EXACT same things you said last year and 2 years ago.

Difference between you and I? I was NOT willing to waste my life waiting around for a WW to make a decision. And trust me, she is only waiting in the hope she can find another OM if not maybe she will come home for awhile.

You need to divorce this woman NOW.

Man up stop being a WHIMP. You know people like you really give MB a bad name - thinking that its all about chasing after a Wayward.

While I appreciate JL's advice - I think it is so 2yrs ago. All thats left now is DIVORCE.

Or go ahead and waste your life......you seem to be doing a good enough job of it.........