Wow - Thanksgiving was rough! I moved out in August to take a new job out of state - and soon after leaving found out that my WW was in contact again with the OM - after being in counseling since March, with a promise to never see him again (but concerned that I would not keep up my end of the bargain).

I was crushed - and she also enjoined my oldest daughter into it, getting her to defend her saying that "she needed a friend and he was there." For history, this is an 18 year friend that has taken her on various trips, shared hotels, gone as a date to weddings, gone with his family to holiday activities - all while I fought hard to get rid of it.

when I found MB a year ago, I started the Plan A / Plan B tactics and have followed through with each step - finally announcing in October that I was going to file for divorce since there was even more activity (and I found books on divorce that she had checked out - because she was sure that I was contemplating it...)

Invited back for Thanksgiving to be with the Kids, but she had us stay together as a family - doing all the old things - and saying that she was trying to be the "bigger person" in the relationship. We did have a pointed discussion of filing - and it boiled down to money (doesn't it always?).

Anyway - I'm thinking that this is sending a very mixed message to the kids - that the veneer is intact, all things are fine (when they are about to hit the fan...) and ALSO this is a great opportunity for her to impact me (she gets texts and IM's from all the other guys that have been after her for years in my presence now - AND she even had an ornament with the OM's childhood picture on it on the X-mas tree!

I'm thinking many things - she still has feelings, wants to rub my face in it, or is truly trying to make things good for the kids (unreal, but non-confrontational).

She wants me to come back and spend X-mas eve with her and the kids - and then I get them to bring home over the holidays. I'm thinking just pick them up after X-mas and return, not stay.... Am I thinking sane?

It seems to me she still wants to cakeeat. I don't think its good to fake happy family while D pending. You have to do what is mentally healthy for you and your kids. Sending mixed signals is going to cause issues with understanding boundaries. Since you are divorcing better to start setting those boundaries now. Others may feel differently.

Gg

It is a typical wayward tactic to want to be "friends" with the betrayed spouse they just screwed over. The idea is to befriend you so you can help her pretend like she is not destroying her marriage and her family with her adultery. It makes her feel better about her adultery if you don't squeal like a stuck pig when she sticks it to you. She doesn't want to have to feel any guilt about what she is doing so if you just act like her "friend" and don't protest, then she feels better!

The logical answer to this request to be "friends" [usually "for the children" too ] is that you have no desire to be "friends" with someone who lies to you and cheats on you. Who, in their right mind, would choose such a "friend?"

Man, I SURE hope you are having LONG and EARNEST discussions with all your kids about what cheating does to a person. They are now 90% guaranteed to follow in her footsteps. Jeez!

Skip the Xmas. Pick up the kids the next day. Say - to HER and TO YOUR KIDS in front of her - that you won't spend one minute longer than you have to in a house where the woman thinks she can create adultery in front of her own children.

Oh, and that ornament had better magically disappear on your way out.

Yep, been there, done that with a long-term emotional affair. I tried to stop it, too. Maybe you'll work it out. My divorce should be final in a couple of months.

Regardless of what she's thinking or what she's doing or what she is pulling out of her [censored] to attempt to bother you right now...what do you want to do over the holidays?

Do *you* want to spend the holidays one last time with you all together? If so, tell her you will participate on one condition: no contact w/OM in your presence. I did this with my STBX, and he agreed. One last Christmas together gave our daughter a good transition into the reality that lay ahead. Since your kids are older, you can explain to them plainly that you are very hurt about what has occurred - without trashing WW - and that you are NOT OK with it. But that you are man enough to overcome your feelings in order to celebrate the holidays together. I personally think they will respect that, and will know who the "bigger person" really is. I will bet that they already know without you even saying anything. They can see what their mom is doing without your interpretation - even my 5yo knew her dad was messed up, running around w/some other woman, and pointed this out to me. I don't believe your 18 yo truly buys into that crap. She's just defending her mom, a natural reflex...but she knows.

Are you wanting to get back together with this person? If not, stop stressing yourself out, drop the techniques and just focus on the kids. At some point, you're going to need and want to make plans for the rest of their lives with this person. You are setting a foundation now and having a nasty attitude toward her is not going to change her mind. Staying the heck away from her after the holidays - unless absolutely necessary, for the sake of the kids - will help you renew yours.

Thank you all for your replies.

I have had conversations with the kids - each time I've visited over the last 4 months, we always conclude the visit by going out to breakfast and talking. It is SO DIFFICULT not to trash their mother, but I am trying to explain my position delicately.
My son - 18 this month - knows exactly what is going on and has vocalized repeatedly that what has happened to me will never happen in his relationships and feels that it is messed up. He has also made it clear that he will be hitting the door from living with her at the first opportunity - whether he goes to college or not.
I am somewhat relieved that she will only have him for another 6-8 months - and has just nagged and nagged on him to the point of breaking the relationship. He already recognizes that she is taking my holding her accountable out on him, but then turns around and has family pictures done, but only an individual portrait of him and her (like we used to do). Can anyone say surrogate husband AND other man? I was floored when I saw the pictures, as it was only supposed to be his Senior Pictures and group of the kids.... she has it up on her facebook page now - him and her....

The girls - 14 & 16 know - the 16 yr old just locks herself away in her room and wants to support both of us - but has occasionally "bought into" what her mother has said about the other man just being a "really good friend that she needs to talk to - especially now that you are leaving."
The youngest would really like to move and live with me, but we both realize that would kill the relationship with her mother - or at the least make it hell for years.... She has taken it upon herself during our troubles over the last couple of years to see the school counselor - and continues to do so.

the distance - isolation, lack of updates, being able to monitor - is making this even more difficult.

You are all right - stop validating the "friendship", as I have done over the years - and start calling it what it is - affair, divorce, ending.

Does that mean she realizes her mother is having sex with this man? It doesn't sound like it. Have you told her that? Have you told her - actually all of them - that her mother started having sex with another man while still married to you? That she cheated?

THAT is what they need to hear. It sounds like they are pretending it's not what it is. IMO it's your job to explain to them what cheating really is.

Not trying to trash on you, just making sure they're getting the right messages, not just the ones that make 'getting along' easier.

fwiw, it sounds like all your kids need massive counseling with a professional. And no, I don't consider school counselors professional.

btw, when your child says your wife needs 'someone to talk to' your response SHOULD be 'that is what girlfriends are for. There is no room in a marriage for a second man.'

Your kids are old enough to decide which parent they want to live with.

I agree. But it sounds to me like what's really going on is that everyone is tiptoeing around what Mom thinks or feels. Kids are afraid to piss her off. My first guess is she threatens to 'not love' them if they don't show her love and support. And Dad lets it keep going on by not being a strong enough protector.

Something a child psychologist really needs to be looking at.

Ouch - "strong enough protector"

Lot of guilt on my part being 6 hours away. Second guess about taking this job, not staying in the M to work it out, allowing the OM to come back again and again....

The behavior runs very deep - back to her mom and alcoholic dad - and I've been fighting it since almost day one. The kids are not in any danger physically, have outside attachments socially and actively, and are doing well in school. I explain myself and situation to them every chance I get - and have no hope of getting the kids away from her, much less away from the town that they live (and all the connections that they have).

I feel so helpless when it comes to being in their life and being a father - so i'm just trying to provide one sane and stable relationship with them - without the guilt and without the obsessive compulsive actions either.

We all have confronted her about her actions - and it is scary how it becomes. then she plays the martyr.

I'm even more humbled and saddened that I don't know how to deal.

justJohn,

I hate to say this but you are the one screwing up the kids. The kids probably understand her self-centered actions better than yours. She does what she does because she wants to and it makes her feel better. YOU....

You are not modeling good boundaries for your children.
You are constantly second guessing yourself on a topic that really is black and white.
You say your one daughter would come to live with you, but she would lose her mother. Whose fault would that be? Not yours, not your d's, it would be her mothers. Give the girl the chance to live with you if that is what she wants.
Your W is subjecting them to mental torture and playing games with their minds and you stand there wringing your hands "me or my what ever will I do?"

I say set your boundaries, be vocal about your boundaries, and decide that your W's behavior should not be modeled in front of your children. If you want to be there Xmas, then go, but put up with nothing, including OM's picture on the tree. Make it clear you won't tolerate it being rubbed in your face. Otherwise pick the kids up after Xmas and then have a wonderful time.

Telling the truth is not bad mouthing your W. You are teaching your children to lie by omission. Speak the truth to them, don't sugar coat it, speak it. Let them decide what to do with the truth.

Time to stand up and show them what a man with principles, integrity and love in his heart looks and acts like.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

justjohn, here is an MB thread called "The Fantasy of Divorce" that speaks to your questions:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2275600#Post2275600

Mulan

I agree that a harder line should be taken. The youngest wants the security of someone that loves her and kids know when people are selfish and not protecting them.

I too had a wife with similar parents who were both alcoholics, In her case the worse of them was her Mother. I have seen the drama crap of Mom getting "upset" when things didn't go her way. Its shameful emotional abuse.

TElling your Children the truth and explaining that Mom is sick in the head will give them the security that YOU are acting in their best interest and that YOU love them no matter what. They will need you to be there in truth for them if they are going to avoid being confused and hurt by your WW.

IMO you would be better off without her. You are definatly enabling her butt-head behavior if you continue to accomidate the BS Spin she is selling.

Listen, you have let this WW walk all over you for too long. Your children can understand that. They will benifet from you standing up for what is decent behaviuor and getting some self respect.

If you let her walk on you then the children don't have a Dad that will protect them from her. No excuses.