'MIM', when I confronted her at that point it didn't matter if she admitted to it, one of the O did. I would've 'only' thought it was the two dudes, so she did come out of the blue and admit to the 3 OM. I remember her clearly, laying on the bed. I saw her counting on her fingers, (I wasn't sure what she was doing)...then she said there were 5 guys total, she had a weird expression on her face, one that I will never forget. I had a weird expression as well...it was along the lines of

That's when I went out and pressure washed the entire house, in complete and total shock...

Your wife may feel that she loves you and you may feel that she does love you.
Her actions speak otherwise.
These feelings mean nothing if they are not backed up with actions
that protect your M and care for you.

Your WW has been angry for many years and now she is defensive with her A's, just wanting to sweep it all under a rug.
I can see how lying for this long can do that to someone, not behaving respectful leads to self disrespect and is spewed onto
everyone else.

Her thinking is so very selfish, she doesn't want to acknowledge your hurt since she then will have to face
her own ugliness and disgust that she's done.
Basically she doesn't want to face that person in the mirror, cuz
she hates what she sees.

Until she is willing to do that, she will not do anything to help you heal.

I hope you do consider calling the Harley's.
You should also strongly consider the MB weekend, there is one in January.
She will hear first hand how to care for and protect her M, and how destructive an A is to a M. (let alone 5, or more???)
And, it won't be you doing the lecturing on how she failed at this, it's an outside source.

I don't like your MC either, any decent human being MC or not,
is within their right to point out that adultery is wrong and destructive to a family.
That's just common sense.

You could have her read Joseph's letter, it's about why knowing the whole truth about A's is vital.
I will try to find it and link it.

I agree with the polygraph, the thing is until she understands that her transparency is vital to your healing,
she won't want anything to do with it.

Dr. Harley's Recovery Requirements is also something that you can have her read.
I wouldn't push this stuff down her throat though, she is already defensive, you need her to be receptive to what
she reads.

For now, calmly repeat to her that you want to heal and feel safe in this M, you want a better and new M, stuff like that.
End all of these statements with 'you want this too, don't you??'

You say that you both do not want D.
The lousy part of having an initial unrepentant WS is that it will be you having to the heavy work of R.
Many of us have been in those shoes. It makes no sense I know, we were the ones
wronged and now we are the ones trying to fix it. Sucks big time.

This isn't the one I had in mind but it's a start.

Recovery after an Affair

This is another article that will be helpful to you.
Can't we just forgive and forget

DNA test.

This is why your WW won't tell you anything that can cause you to question if one of her OM knocked her up. WW is protecting herself and the OM at your expense.

If the test proves that the WW passed off one of the OM OC as yours this will remove the need for the WW to withhold the rest of the truth concerning her affairs.

I have no great wisdom on this stuff. It blows my mind.
A common sense analysis makes me believe she does not love you.
First , she cheated with 5 guys, and that is very telling. Same with the lying.
But, IMO, it is her actions subsequent to D-day thaat are particularly telling.
Now, stop and thhink about this with as clear a head as one can muster after this trauma. Doesn't it strike you as particulary unloving that she zoomed off on her vacation leaving you in pain? Or , that she lies about remembering dates? Or, that she expects you to get over it? Or, that only you are doing the grunt work?

You've pointed all these things out , yourself. what other possible conclusion can you draw but that she does not feel love for you?

I don't think that means she never will or that the marriage is neccessarily over. But, you need to open your eyes to what/who you are dealing with here.

These plans seem to work only when both spouses get on board. If she won't , then you might have to get out.

Vittoria, thanks for all of the links and your posts. I've shared the Joseph's letter before with my FWW....appreciate it.

Again, I do want to thank all of you guys, I do take in all advise.

Codej

I have been reading along and I have to say this is a mess. I don't think you are handling it as well as you could, but then who could? You cannot educate your W. What you can do is what your children are doing and point out when her behavior oversteps your boundaries...if you have any. If you do you need to step up and start protecting them, if you don't you have no room to complain about how you have been treated in this marriage.

It seems to me, that the issues prevalent in this marriage years ago remain to this day. Her anger, her unwillingness to see other peoples point of view (lack of empathy), her lying, and the list goes on. You are trying to address all of this WHILE trying to address her affairs. And yes I would bet there are more than 5 as well, but "who's counting", right?

You have every right to be devastated by the news that your marriage has been a lie for many years. You have every right to wonder if you fathered all of your children. You have every right to seek that knowledge or ignore it. But, you have no right to educate her.

You are the one that has to make decisions. She is happy with the status quo. You are not. What is your plan for your life?
That is the outstanding question.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

'JL', I didn't know of boundaries until IC. I do now know of them. I had NO boundaries before, you're very insightful, (although a blind person could see that, if they could read my posts, lol).I do have some now, but I am just learning of them. When a teenager I was one of those that didn't let ANYTHING get to me, after I got married I became co-dependent on my wife and had no boundaries.

I had a very bad childhood, horrible. My therapist picked up on that little gem the first time I stepped in her office. That is why I had about 15 IC's, my wife only 2...she had a great childhood, while poor, she had a loving caring family, the opposite of me, of course.

My kids just ignore her, are you saying that's what I should do? I totally do not, as you probably can tell.

'JL', you really have made me think 'JL'. Your post cut through me, I appreciate the honesty and you were spot on.

I wish I could PM or email you.

'PB', good point. Actually I did that EXACTLY just this morning, no kidding. I didn't use your examples of what to say, (but I will file them away for later).

I said how to lets put everything about the A's aside for now....our therapist has asked me what do I need from my wife right now. I always said, 'time', 'respect', 'earn my trust back', but we will never improve our relationship until she works on her anger.

So I told her that. I said if you need something from me, or if I am not doing something then do tell, I will listen and try to correct. She said I have been brooding lately and not talking, sulking. I told her the reason is I have issues and concerns but when I bring them up the very first reaction I get is anger, fast, intense anger.

I said, I am going to need from you the respect of not getting angry over questions I may have, or problems, (not necessarily about A's either). If you respond in a normal tone, then I have no reason to sulk, we can head any further wasteful emotional outbursts at the pass.

I said, I really need this, it has to be done. I will no longer have uncontrolled anger in this house, it has to stop.

She agreed, but its been going on for so long I worry about it actually happening. I have to stick to my guns. I have stuck pretty good to what I learned on IC, but not fully.

Its odd that you said that just now 'PB'.

Pep

It really is odd...almost to the word, seriously. We were sitting upstairs, after some morning 'hysterical bonding', lol. And it just seems everything has compounded and the lines are blurring and piling up.

So I was thinking, what is the most important thing my wife can do, NOW, that is going to make a difference in our marriage, NOW?....her anger and controlling the outbursts.

Baby steps I suppose. Trust me, I have my own issues, but as I've always been told and even by my therapist, I wear my emotions on my sleeve and I am very open with my emotions, and to suggestions on improvement.

You solidified my concerns though...all of you guys have.

Codtej,

The timing of my Ws' "EA" is also about 20 years, did you find that your sex life changed after her affairs and never really recovered to the same level again.

In my case our sex life since then was almost entirely carried by my attraction to her.

NJ

The only difference is during the A's she totally with held sex from me. We picked right up and continue to this day to have a healthy sex life. She SWARES it wasn't about sex with those guys, (whatever).

Actually because of HB we have gone to a level we have not had since the first year or two of our marriage, some days, many times a day.

Umm, I am not sure if that is what you were asking? I do not know what you meant by..."In my case our sex life since then was almost entirely carried by my attraction to her". ? I am kinda sloooow.

Codtel,

Before her EA she would, a reasonable percentage of the time, initiate. After the EA the initiation was something like 99% of the time by me and there was a qualitative difference which would be tough to define.

Perhaps the fact that my wife always viewed herself as a good moral person ment that she carried that guilt from that time onwards, like your wife my wife never admits to fault, except to outsiders to whom she is fawningly polite.

NJ

That is interesting as my wife seems to be very polite to 'outsiders' as well. I think that if a common pattern?

My wife has in the past, and still does initiate, as she feels the need to. As I've said, she never says no to me, except for around 6 months in 88, you know, when she was banging other dudes. She will always give 'it' to me, that I can't complain about. But I always give to her as well, for as long as she needs, in all areas.

I do find the not admitting to any faults to be very annoying, and a bad trait to have.

Codtej,

I do find the not admitting to any faults to be very annoying, and a bad trait to have.

Yea it seems to run in my Wifes family too, her dad has four OCs, and countless affair partners, and guess what? He gets really upset when people question his honesty. It seems small when he only lies about a $200 purchase.

To be fair her dad lies so much that he might even believe his own lies at this time as they are the only version of the past he can remember.

Your earlier post about micro-managing was funny too, my Wife likes to tell the kids how to chew their food, how to walk correctly and has theories on everything which can't be proven or disproven. I think her lack of hard knowledge about difficult and complex subjects makes her retreat to unassailable topics.

NJ

Codej,

Here is something for you to consider. As you change how you respond to what she does, and yes anger comes to the for in this thinking, she will have to change how she reacts. That is what Pepper is telling you. Change the dynamics and you will see changes.

Your children, now grown, have figured this out. As they continue to ignore her when she goes off, I suspect you will see her "go off" less. If you start to point out her anger and then leave as well, she will be constantly reminded that this approach is not working.

Work on your boundaries, and work on you. As you change, the interactions will change as well.

Let me ask you a question for your consideration. Why do you think there is this hysterical bonding going on???

I know it is:

1. Intimate and during this walls are down. That makes it safe for both of you.

2. It is something you two have done through thick and thin, no matter her anger issues, your issues, and only interupted by her A's.

3. It is good for both of you.

But, consider this. She AND YOU perhaps don't have the skills at communications to actually comfort one another. You don't have the skills to listen to information completely through before trying to "finish the other persons sentences". You don't have the skills to describe what you feel and need and neither does she.

Now if this speculation is true and I am sure it is partly true, is it possible that her anger (which is a secondary emotion) is driven by "fear, frustration (here it could be her inability to communicate what she feels). This is something that you might actually ask her. What drives your anger? Frustration, fear, pain, and if so what is the source.

I would also recommend that you two conside what is called "active listening" where you hear the other person out and then repeat what you thought you heard. And then listen as the other person tries to refine the message, and on it goes. It is a bit painful, but it will affect both how one speaks and how one listens.

My guess is your two are short on tools in your relationship tool box. Time to develop and forge some new ones.

Ask Pep, more about this. She is good at asking very "pithy", "probing" questions in a very very short sentence.

God Bless,

JL