MF, I think that you are correct about responding to MLC affairs, but barbie's original post wasn't specifically about affairs.

I think Dr Harley implies that the drinking or depression should be treated as in a non-MLC situation, as should an affair.

barbiecats question was:



...and my answer is the same: it's a SYMPTOM of the problem...and as in a drug addict, once the "drug" (the affair) is eliminated, so is the problem.

That was MY experience. Once the "drug addiction" was taken care of, so was the MLC. Once the A ended, so did the MLC.

An A is only a symptom of a MLC. If the "bandaid" (the affairs, the drugs, etc) in a MLC are taken away, the person must face the MLC alone and without any aid.

My experience was that the MLC disappeared once the person was no longer coddled, and everything wasn't all chalked up to a "MLC".

It didn't happen over night but suddenly it wasn't so fun anymore. It was actually embarrassing.

The outcome has been a complete change in character and attitude...a "revelation" as to what is truly important in life, and an intense desire to embrace the incredible life that HAS been given rather than all that was THOUGHT to have been missing.

Again, just my experience.

I can see how the MLC can be a symptom of the problem if the problem predated the MLC excuse. The term MLC is often used as an excuse for bad behaviour, I think. I agree that, as Mel often says, behaving badly is likely to make us feel bad. If we stop the bad behaviour, the feelings of low self-worth will evaporate.

However, Dr Harley seemed to be saying that it can be a problem in its own right. Affairs, drinking and drug-taking are sometimes responses to the MLC problem; terrible ways of coping with the MLC. He specifically mentioned career issues for men that predate the descent into bad behaviour.

barbiecat seemed to be asking what could be done when there did seem to be a real MLC that changed the spouse into someone unrecognisable. How should the spouse cope with a (non-affair) crisis that might go on for years?

My reading of Dr Harley's reply is that the presenting problem (an affair, drug-taking, drinking etc) should be made to stop. It might be that, as for your H, the "MLC" disappears once the drug-taking etc stops. However, if it doesn't stop, the spouse has to go to Plan B, to protect him/herself from the effects of the crisis, just as one would from the effects of an ongoing affair. Dr Harley recommends this in the newsletter "When to call it quits". He recommends Plan B not just for continuing affairs, but for all kinds of abuse.

SSShhhannnks you! You got my point xaxtly.
hukd on fonikz wurked fur me!

THe MB site does not have a dedicated thread/book/help specifically with this dilema. Some Dr.'s don't even beleive that MLC's exist. Although now I have the good Dr. H's opinion that he does believe in this condition. That is a step in a good direction.

I see people dealing with depressions, MLC's addictions and other anti social personality disorders AND trying to fix their
M's.

I have read quite a bit about this situation (my H fits the MLC "guidelines" to a "T"). I stay reading here (MB) because I am trying to see solutions and better ways of thinking about problems, and there is a lot of excellent advice given here.
AND on MB101, too.

I would like it if Dr. H could address more on this type of situation.

I went through a number of phases shortly after D-day: The "seven year itch," MLC, menopause (hers, not mine) and finally have come to the conclusion reached by so many others here:

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR HAVING AN AFFAIR

If you truly believe your H is having a MLC, I HIGHLY, HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend the book "The Irritable Male Syndrome" by Jed Diamond. It explains very clearly what your H is going through and what you can do to help him through it.

I disagree. Given that women walk away and don't come back, where as men walk away, but more often DO come back, MEN are more willing to repair a marriage than women.

Two thirds of divorces are filed by women. That certainly says more women than men are willing to END marriages.

I totally disagree with the notions that women are more willing to work on their relationships.

Given what Dr Harley says about women not really telling their husbands about their dissatisfaction, I really don't see that as evidence of being willing to do the work either.

Most women who walk out THINK they told their husbands. But if you ask their husbands, they were blind-sided.

So to whom do you give the benefit of the doubt?

Both. Women do indeed think they've told their husbands. But if you ask BH's or abandoned H's you'll typically find that the first time their WW's or WAW's said they were unhappy was when they left.

So did they really tell, or just send subtle signals that only they understood?

I think it's the latter more than the former.

But again, we blame the betrayed and/or abandoned husband for not getting a clear message from hints, innuendos and reading moods.

If you are not happy, then you have to present short unambigous statements with specific desired solutions.

I.E. I'm not happy. I would like to go on one dinner date each week.

Not while watching a movies sighing, "Ahhh, that's so romantic."

He may agree, but he's also trying to balance the minivan needs a new set of tires, the property taxes went up, the value of the house went down, the kids need braces, and now my wife wants to go to Fiji and roll around on the beach kissing, or does she? She knows we need all these things, so she can't possibly be hinting at a trip to Fiji.

Also try "Men in Midlife Crisis" by Jim Conway. My WH is the poster child for MLC.

The author discusses the steps of MLC: denial, anger, replay, depression, withdrawal, acceptance. Asked what if a man doesn't make it through the stages, the response is: "...he will probably experience a prolonged period of trauma. He will likely experience recurring cycles of midlife crisis during the next 15 to 20 years." Yikes!

I need to reread this book. Knowledge is power. Know the enemy.

Enlightened Ex, I dont know about the fact that two thirds of divorces are initiated by woman actually means that they are not willing to work on the marriage tho.

I dont think my WH will ever initiate the divorce and he has no intention on working on the marriage either...he just knows that it is gonna cost him a lot of money to cut me loose. So I will most likely be the one initiating D....and I dont want one at all...but WH is still w OW and I need to move on.

I don't think the fact that women initiate most divorces has anything to do with them not wanting to work on the marriage. They actually have and DO work on their marriages, futiley for years before they eventually walk out. If you read Dr. Harley's articles on this, he describes it very well. In fact, women are the ones who buy self-help books, see counsellors and make the most "effort" into fixing marriages.

The trouble is, men don't seem to realize their marriage is in trouble until she's already out the door. Why is that?

Part of it is communication, and differing communication styles. She wants help around the house so he takes the garbage out and cuts the grass. But what she really wanted was him to tidy up when he got home from work and quit leaving his crap all over the place for her to pick up. When she addresse these thing specifically, he views it as nagging. She can't win.

My marriage was just like that. The only difference was he was the one who walked - and he was D.O.N.E. by the time I found out about the affair. Had it not happened, I was a prime candidate for one of the 60% of women asking for a divorce. I had tried everything (except MB - which I didn't find until too late). And I followed the pattern described by Dr. Harley many times - first complaining, then criticizing, then withdrawing from meeting his ENs and developing my own life independent of his. A couple more serious DJ's from him and I might have decided I didn't need it anymore. And you know what I would have done? I would have started secretly saving money, researching divorce and separation and figuring out my concrete plans. He wouldn't know of them until I was ready to execute them - hence walk out on him. And by then, it would be too late.

Yes, women cheat as much as men. But women also cheat differently than men. Women are on their way out already. Men often don't have any intention of leaving, but still want the OW on the side. That's the main difference. And it's also a generalization - there is plenty of anecdotal evidence on this board that doesn't fall into these categories but taht doesn't mean they don't exist.

Dr Harley posted again today on the subject of a FWW with an "other child".

Here

I think it is unfair. He is focusing on the FWW vs the FWH with other child

Bump

I am 40--ish. It seems that my M and quite a lot of the people I know, hit (what I believe to be) the MLC at top speed. It does not matter if you have been married 5, or 23 years.

The traits of a MLC'r (both male and female) can be described to a "T". There is more evidence (I found online in other articles) that MLC is more than an emotional reaction, that they have a chemical component to- or a combination thereof.>sp?

They are looking at genetics, although this could be nurture as opposed to nature. Donte commented on mid life angst. This is nothing new to our generation.


The one thing I know is that you can not force a MLC'r to do anything! It is like dealing with a emotional 13 year old, and any "parent figure" gets rejected. Ultimatum's threats and PB will not change behavior, tho PB will protect the spouse from having the love bank emptied out even more.

40-ish? What are you trying to hide, barbiecat?

There is a new poster on 101 who asked about Dr Harley's views on this. I thought she might be interested in the discussion you started.

I think MLC is just an excuse that has been used by men who were having affairs for years.

When does this so-called MLC start? I'm 58 and I'd like to be prepared...

Warning signals (as per other reading)
#1. Strong financial threat, stressful/changing job.
#2. Was "straight laced" in teenage years.
#3. Had strict parenting.
#4. Formerly fiscally responsible.
#5. New onset of depression, usually first experience
#6. Trauma/passing of mentor in personal life, "coming of OLD age" issues.
#7. Low self image
#8. Personality changes. Like a lightswitch.

Yeah I know, 2 x 4 are a heading my way, but I have seen first hand, upclose and personal this happen too many times- and in my own marriage-- to ignore this.

My H had an EA, but it could have been a PA- but he pulled his head out'a youknowwhere 1/2 way, and caught himself (really OW got married- used my H to make her BF jealous-- it worked). Now if he could just jerk it out a little more ;-).

I know it is not MB docrine, but I feel there has to be a componet that is important here. The other MB things are GREAT

LOL You missed it Fred. Or is the A fallout, the BS's MLC?

My FIL was really sick a deteriorating around the time WH started his A...he passed the month WH moved out....WH was soooo close to him, they were always together. Then when FIL got really sick, WH was never around...I dont think WH could handle it. He escaped to OW and her family and totally ignored his own family...

I though for sure that he would come to his senses, but now he likes his freedom...He actually said to me on Dday...I felt like we were an old married couple and I am too young to feel like that.