So it has been a while since I have been on the board. I popped in yesterday just to see how my old friends were doing. Then I thought this would be an excellent forum to discuss something that has been bothering me about my failed marriage...

Is sexual fulfillment marital currency?

Suppose we have a working husband and a SAHM. They are in a joint marital contract where they are supposed to be meeting each others needs.

Clearly as the working individual, the husband is providing the utilities, food, shelter, etc. The wife is providing the child care, the bulk of the housework, etc. Then the wife stops meeting the husbands needs sexually.

Why is it that there is no recourse for that? Why is that such a different thing than ANY other need?

One might take the point of view that it's her body, and it is NOT currency in the marriage. And by currency I mean the typical exchange... "Honey, Fri night you watched the kids so I could go out with my girlfriends, so today you can watch the game all afternoon..." You know, the bartering we all do.

But why is SF different? Clearly it IS currency, spouses will "cut the other one off" if they are upset at them. So it can be used (and this is a harsh, poor word choice, but I cannot think of another) as a weapon against ones spouse by withholding it. Don't tell me that isn't done.

So here's the thing - let's say the wife is withholding sex and that is understandable for some time, but then it becomes excessive. (A hard point to nail down empirically, to be sure). Is there a point where the husband can say, withhold food? I mean a need is a need....

And I know the first response - you'll die without food, you won't without sex. OK. The wife has been withholding for 3 mos, to put a number to it, then the husband says "Dear, I am afraid you are on an oatmeal diet until you pony up to your end of the marriage agreement." So she gets oatmeal until she is willing to meet his needs.

SHOCK! GASP! ALARM! It DOES sound horrible. My question is WHY? Clearly bartering like this goes on in a marriage and most everything is on the table EXCEPT sexual fulfillment. Why is that different? It is a need, go without it for a while if you doubt me.

Would there be circumstances where that would be OK?

And this is not something I have done, but I am curious as to why certain things are just taboo. I have done a lot of world traveling and find that many things that are taboo in the states simply aren't in other places.

In successful marriages, probably not. In failed (failing) marriages, probably more common. I don't it is done with conscious intention, but it happens nonetheless. It happened in my M - not intentionally, but that was the result. I wanted affection, he said he'd be affectionate during SF. If he was, it didn't fall under my definition of affection so I still felt "short changed" (to continue with the same analogy). I also felt like I had to "pay" for affection with SF and this was too prostitutish for me. I didn't outright withhold SF, but I didn't make myself available either. It was the wrong way to deal with it but I didn't know any better at the time and thought I'd already tried everything.

Now if you are talking about a specific occurrance where she is upset or angry with you about something, she is not going to want SF plain and simple. This isn't to "punish" you, but it really is impossible for a woman to enjoy SF when she has other problems and if she's angry with you, she absolutely does not want to touch you. This should resolve when she has calmed down AND you have fixed/resolved whatever it is she was angry with you for. By this I mean either apologized (sincerely) if it was a past action or taken corrective action if she's upset because of some ongoing thing (i.e. clean up if you're a slob or whatever). Another thing that haunted my M was when I got angry with WXH, we'd have a fight and then he'd expect to make up the next day - but the initial reason I was angry with him was STILL THERE! If I said so,then I was nagging and unreasonable to be harping on the same thing over and over - even though nothing had been done. I couldn't win. And who wants to have SF feeling like that?

This really is a good question. As for the food analogy, food isn't listed as an EN.. I know it could fall under FS, but it could also fall under DS. So no, putting a spouse on a strict diet until they give it up is probably not a good idea.

But I do wonder sometimes what the appropriate recourse is. Is a man needs an attractive wife, for example, the obvious answer is for said W to go on a diet. I use attractive because Harley sees AS as someone who is healthy and takes care of themselves, not necessarily a size 2 with a small nose. The W may not be all that wild about dieting. In fact, she may hate the idea. But if she truly wants to meet that need and fill his LB, then that is what she does. So why not for SF? Well, then all sorts of psychological factors start coming into play. I am not sure where I sit on that. He can tell me I am fat and that he won't be happy until I am not, but I can't tell him that it has been two months since SF, and I need it? I really think if all ten are EN's, then all ten are EN's. BTW, my H doesn't withold SF, but I have typically been the one who wanted it more, so maybe that is why I can see the discrepancy.

I think women and men look at SF differently, and yet there are some common threads...

SF can be used by both parties as a power point...who has the power, who can wield it. And yes, as a woman I have used SF to "get back at" my H...in a way. If I were honest with myself, I have used SF to hurt him. But in a way, I would not have SF when I'm feeling like this anyway.

For me, not engaging in SF is a systemic problem. I find giving myself over to SF opens me up and I am very vulnerable during... I am only able to enjoy myself when I am trusting and loving. If we have been arguing all day, or I suspect lying, then I am not able to engage in SF until we've cleared the air. It may seem like I am holding this over my H's head, but I cannot allow myself to be taken over, consumed, vulnerable, with someone I don't trust.

I understand it is different for men, who disengage their minds often...and emotions...and SF comes from a place of want and they can compartmentalize their life to the point where SF can come more easily? Am I correct in these thoughts?

So...if a woman is not engaging in SF, there is probably a reason. Foreplay for a woman comes in many forms...

If I share a day with my H where I feel supported and loved, if I feel cared for and that he is looking out for my best interests and would not harm me, it is easier for me to feel loving, affectionate, and amorous.

BUT...if I have spent a day with him where he has been angry, engaging in selfish behavior where he seems to not have a care about how his behavior hurts me or the family and at the end of the night rolls over and says..."How 'bout it Hon", well...I feel used and resentful.

It is hard to engage in SF with a Taker...

NCW--still got your pot-stirring stick, I see. Wish I had a good answer for you, but I'm really low on good answers lately.

tl

NCW! Hey was thinking about you the other day when my H wanted to buy a marshmallow launcher. For some reason it reminded me of you and your trebuches. How is life?

I think it needs to be looked at as two separate situations:

- Withholding sex
- Not in the mood

If she is withholding, then she's using it as a tool. But I think in the majority of cases it's because she's not in the mood. Sometimes it's because of external situations like work, relationship problems, time management, etc. Sometimes it's because she just has a lower drive than you. You can't fault her because she only feels like doing it x-times a week (or month or whatever)

You like going to the movies, right? Maybe once a week is perfect. What if she wanted to go 3x per day? How would you feel if she pressured you to go that much and said you were wrong for only wanting to go once a week? That would probably get you completely out of the mood to go see movies at all.

Of course, sex and movies are different. You can easily go to the movies yourself. So what needs to happen is that you need to understand that you may not get SF as often as you like. And she needs to understand that she needs to give in a little more than she'd like.

Still,

"BUT...if I have spent a day with him where he has been angry, engaging in selfish behavior where he seems to not have a care about how his behavior hurts me or the family and at the end of the night rolls over and says..."How 'bout it Hon", well...I feel used and resentful."

This can go the other way too. You do something and he doesn't want to be around you or give you any affection.

I am guessing here, but I bet most women after a drag down, knock out fight would willingly accept affection from her H if he said sorry and gave you a hug. Then he takes your hand over to a chair and you sit on his lap and you just hug or go to the couch and just hold eachother. Now let's take it a little further shall we. REMEMBER YOU'RE OK WITH GETTING THIS AFFECTION AFTER THE FIGHT. So he starts to carress you and wants SF, what will you do? 100% of the time my wife would refuse for the reasons you describe above, she'll even refuse after she's admitted the fight is over and resolved!

So I think we need to go back to the drawing board because women can compartmentalize things too. I think if you refuse for reasons of feelings or that you're upset at him you need to think about it for a moment. What if he didn't FEEL like going to work this month? What if he didn't FEEL like helping you around the house? What if he didn't FEEL like conversing with you? What if he didn't FEEL like meeting any of your ENs UNTIL he was sastifactory about how you are meeting his SF EN?

I think when you refuse for reasons other than true reasons you are stepping back and not practicing MB at all. Your EN and his need to be Lock Step, and if he faulters you keep meeting his EN, and if he is on board with MB you have to concede that you are not perfect and he is probably meeting your EN when you faulter against him.

The problem is when one S is practicing MB principles and the other doesn't or is too selfish to care. My wife? She's admitted that she didn't care about me in the past which stabbs doubly from the refusals and her admittance that she was selfish and didn't care.

See, this is why men shouldn't think for women. I sure don't want affection after a fight! I want distance. Who wants to be affectionate with a JERK who just had an angry outburst? NOT ME. And why does affection have to mean groping? What a turn off. If you groped me after we just had a fight, I would want to punch you!

"Get your mitts off the merchandise!!" After a fight I don't even want to SEE him for about a week. So there isn't going to be any affection, much less tolerance for being MAULED.

I agree Melody. The absolute last thing I want from my H after a fight is affection.

Hey NC, funny we both show up at the same time after long absence (reminds me of an old Honda MC joke � I�m sure you know the one).

Anyway. As with most hypotheticals which aren�t, you are asking the wrong question.

My wife withheld for 10 years straight. The entirety of her VLTA. Excepting one five month period in the middle of it - which turns out to be when they were mad at each other.

Which in turn tends to make one want to ask why is she withholding (as opposed to occasionally not in the mood)?

From that answer one usually knows exactly what to do.

Corollary question: What if a husband can no longer physically perform? What is the going exchange rate then? (Not me, BTW. I can perform just fine. For the record, I simply no longer find her worth the effort. )

But how does one know witch they are dealing with?

The mood should strike more than 4 times a year.

Point taken Mel, and maybe I went to an extreme with the "big" fiht, but I if it were toned down a little it is true. And instead of men "thinking" for women, I'll say women should stop trying to "chang" men.

What my point was, is to move MB in lock step if both are on board. My wife only acted like she was on board, used POJA and UA to manipulate, and when she didn't get what she wanted she refused, but then again she refused because the sun came up, sun went down, it was hot, cold, the air had oxygen in it, etc., but she always loved a hug and snuggle. AND I'VE NEVER GROPED A WOMAN BEFORE IN MY LIFE!!! I was trying make a point that let's say it was bickering and not a huge fight. Bickering over coffee strength. Ridiculous I know, but the bickering started to involve LB or DJ. Women would absolutely take a sorry and a hug. But that little bickering (no matter who started it) can fester in women to a boil.

Dr. Harley told us that we need to just do it and eventually as we both meet eachother's EN the feelings will follow. What I'm saying is SF and women with their feelings have to go together and sloppey stupid men can compartmentalize this aspect of their M. Women compartmentalize other things too, but when it comes to SF it is like no other EN and doesn't get treated the same.

I can totally se where a woman is coming from when they say it's my body and I have to feel a certain way (trusting/secure). I'm still trying to figure out what safe, secure, and protected means to a woman. My wife says that if she does something or says something she wants to know their won't be a freak out about it. I don't freak out, never have. She on the other hand flips and does not practice what she preaches, so I wonder how she wants me to act any other way than how she acts (although I do act very different ie. calm). She's had DS, FS, Rec., Communication, Affection. What she asks for is relative and subjective at the time, so we are like a feather in the wind and I never know.

Ideally, it should. But sometimes, it doesn't. There are legitimate (sometimes medically-related) reasons why it may not.

Enlighten me

I too am getting to a point along with Holding that I just don't see her worth the effort anymore. This frustrates me as much as being refused and so the resentment feels 2x as bad knowing she refused me in my prime years where I felt I needed it most to now I don't need it as often, still remember needing it more often, but not caring if I get it until my desire is way high.

So writer1, exactly when do you or Mel want affection after a fight? Just curious. Isn't this a grudge? Why do you suddenly after a week want or are ok with affection? Where is the timeline? Shall we take a week off work, or DS?

themud, I would feel the same way. If my H explodes or if there is any bickering, I want to AVOID him, not get affection from him. little bickering creates emotional distance in women and pushes us away.


The reason he told you guys to just DO IT, is that you get into the habit of meeting each others needs. HOWEVER, when it comes to sex, if a women continues that practice when she dislikes it, she will not solve the problem but make the problem MUCH WORSE. In the context that Dr H recommended, he is hoping that this global approach to meeting needs will create an ENVIRONMENT where the woman enjoys sex. If there is not such an environment [an environment of "bickering"] she will simply grow MORE AVERSE to SF, which would be a DISASTER.

Dr H has said women need 2 things to enjoy sex: emotional closeness and the anticipation of an enjoyable experience. If those 2 things never happen, she will grow to HATE IT.

Did you and your wife ever go to a MB weekend?

Gack,

Don't try to reason with relative terms. Obscurity is a refusing W's best friend. The mood is so relative, but is not allowed to be relative to you when you don't want to do something.

Gack: Your wife had a baby a year ago, didn't she? Pregnancy and breast feeding can really mess up a woman's hormones and sex drive.

Mud: There isn't a timeline, not for me at least. But, when the bad feelings are still there and the issue has not yet been addressed and resolved, I certainly have a difficult time feeling close to my H. If the argument is over, and there have been apologies made, and we have been able to sit down and discuss the issue without AO's or LB's, then no, I would not hold a grudge at all. But, after a big argument, it usually takes awhile to get to that point.