I completely disagree with this. I really appreciate it when my H helps out around the house (DS). But, if he's had a long day at work and is tired, I can understand if he doesn't feel like doing the dishes. I hope he would give me that same courtesy (and he does) if I was tired after a long day taking care of the baby and didn't feel like having SF that night.

Mel,

Do you not think that refusing would push or distance a husband? Dr. H statement is true, but also for the other ENs as well. I cannot stand any recreation with my family and avoid it if it's just the 4 of us because my wife's criticism of everything kills me. Camping? Hah! I love it, never done it in 15 years with wife and kids. Going to a 5 star hotel is tough enough, waters too hot, beds too soft, this steak isn't medium it's well done... I refuse to even think what camping would be like and she says she would love to go. I just can't imagine if we didn't have enough ice or gawd forbid ran out of ketchup, my son would convulse.

Lets say you were bickering over coffee strength. And you come and try to be affectionate with me afterwards and I, trying to be NICE, allow you to be affectionate at that very moment and SUFFER through your "affection" when I am really seething inside and don't want your mitts on me. I have just compounded the problem by ALLOWING you to be affectionate to me so now I am RESENTFUL.

If I allow this to happen often enough, ie: affection after bickering, pretty soon, just like Pavlov's dogs, I begin to associate ANY AFFECTION with the bad feelings I have when we bicker. A set up for disaster.

And if you add insult to injury by "caressing" [ie: GROPING!!] then I begin to associate SEX with the resentment I feel from bickering.

Bickering of any kind has that effect on me. I don't want to be around my H when he does that.

x3

I have given up on even trying to get SF.

Cuddling, snuggling, conversation, general affection and gifts are all fine and dandy. But it almost never leads to SF. She claims she is just not interested in it and would rather cuddle and kiss.

Funny, she had a need for it 3 to 5 times a WEEK before her A.
And I'm sure she SF'd OM just as often. I expected this for a wile, but it's been nearly a year since N.C.

Everything else seems to be going great!!

But!

SF is my #1 emotional need, and I have maid this crystal clear to her.
This need is not being met, and I predict a 100% probability that my marriage will eventually fail if this does not change.

writer1,

I think men can appreciate that, but we are talking weeks, months, years of chronic refusal. What if it was one thing right after the other that he "couldn't" help out? Most women would categorize this as cruel. "oh, my husband never communicates and never shows affection". "OH, honey that's almost abandonment and neglect, you should think about divorce."

Ok, so what happens if you go camping and endure her carping for 3 days? Does it help your marriage in any way doing something so unpleasant? Heck no! It is the same with sex. If I have SF with you when I can't stand your [censored], then my resentment just grows. How is that a solution?

The solution is to STOP LOVEBUSTERS ["criticism and bickering] and find a way to meet needs in a way that makes BOTH HAPPY.

Is there any man here who would actually WANT to have SF with a woman who can't stand you? Wouldn't you rather find out a way to make her WANT to have sex with you all the time WILLINGLY? I sure don't want my H to meet my needs in a way that makes him unhappy, so why would you guys want that for your wife?

This is one of Dr Harley's most telling quotes on this subject, IMO:

I think the problem you are having could be related to your wife having recently given birth. I know a lot of women (myself included) who have seen a huge decrease in their desire for SF after having a baby. It's even worse if your wife is still breast feeding. Often, the problem is hormonal, and it is very common.

Have you talked with your wife about how you're feeling? Has she seen her ob/gyn and discussed her lack of desire?

It usually does get better with time, but there may be some issues that your wife is dealing with postpartum that have nothing to do with her feelings for you.

Just a thought.

How often do you bicker with her?

Warning - I am a weird freak of nature

When I got married, someone gave me a small book (which I have lost) that addresses "in the mood." Her (yes, a woman wrote it) answer to not in the mood was to find things to do to get in the mood - a bubble bath, music, candles, a massage, etc. I am the one with the higher need, but there have been times that work was stressful or whatever and when H walked in and locked the door, a part of me just went....blech. But I didn't turn away. And I never regretted it. Now, he doesn't approach me when he knows I am sick or when he knows I am really upset, so I haven't had to deal with it being emotionally painful to have SF. Like I said, I am the one with a higher SF need, so I almost never say no.

That being said, there are things that can be medically interfering with drive or physical ability to enjoy: radical hormone fluctuations (I say radical because our hormones are always fluctuating), low thyroid, low estrogen, medications, depression or other mental diagnosis.

I said I was a freak of nature because as a woman - for me - I tend to lump SF and affection together. Almost always, if H starts kissing me, I am going to want SF. It just happens that way. And if we have a tif, SF actually makes me feel closer. That doesn't mean I would try to force the issue or sull up if H didn't feel the same. I finally got the message that I am not the norm in this area. So we just kind of "reverse roles" where this is concerned. I can say though that not having SF for long periods of time when SF is important to you can be just as damaging as going without conversation, affection, or any other need.

Hi Mud,

I'm wondering what the Dr H opinion is on the higher drive person taking care of the problem with their own hands. (Not sure we can use the other word here).

Seems like a reasonable approach although I have noticed that many of the women object to porn and many guys really like porn for self gratification.

Ok, no LB's, no criticism, no bickering, all needs are being met excep SF...

What now?

And here is where what we talked about in the other thread comes into play.

I did not cause this, and it builds resentment.


We have had several seriouse, polite, talks about it.

Yes, and there are some problems. But they claim it should not affect "Desire"

Yea, I bet it has more to do with residual affects of a poorly tattoed fellon that pushes a lawnmower for a living.

Oh, and sorry for the Thread Jack.

OK, so, I tried to speak for myself as a woman, and then I hear men trying to decipher women which...well...doesn't go over well. How does a man determine what a true reason to turn down SF is for a woman?

So from a man's perspective, what are the thoughts that are going through your head when you are turned down...again? The mistrust of her intentions, what she means by this. And does an honest discussion about what is needed for SF to occur need to happen?

For me, I have a very specific list of things that need to happen....before a certain time of night (too late and I just want to sleep), door locked or kids asleep, and that we've had a good day together (disagreements resolved). There are a few others, but they are temporary arrangements (like the kid situation) and I'm trying to get out of these habits.

It took me YEARS to ask for these simple things. And before I was clear about what I wanted I would have just said "I don't feel like it".

I'd be willing to bet she has some unresolved needs that she is not expressing, and you are not meeting, at that very moment. But hey, how can you read her mind?

So....start the conversation.

Mud, there is something else going on here than what meets the eye.

How old is your W? How long has she been this way? Addictions?

This appears way beyond you meeting or not meeting ENs.

Some people�s ENs, and I speak from experience, are a bottomless pit. They can never be filled in the way they want them to be filled. They cannot be filled at all.

And there is usually a well hidden reason for this miserable state of existence. Oh, trust me, they are way more miserable than you. They just take it out on you.

6yearsleft,

Oh, so if W can have conversation with someone else, I have to meet my need with my hand? Why not find someone else to fill that need with? Oh yeah, that's right, that's called A.

Mel,

I don't think men want to have SF with a women who can't stand them, so I guess you been married dozens of times because you argue with them and can't stand them anymore. What? Oh you eventually get over it, but we are talking about Ws who refuse at any excuse for an undertermined amount of time.

How often do we bicker? I would say not much, we are in the boat with many others on this board who would say other than the lack of SF our marriage is close to ideal. Gack1 and I are in the same boat; wanting it, not getting it, and in a state of apathy because of the length of time we've been rejected has turned us away from trying to initiate.

Mel,
You want us men to start standing up for ourselves, but then you say it would cause you to have resentment, however if we resent something like I mentioned camping because it would be a bad experience I get confused. I have never been silent about the lack of sex in our marriage, she just didn't care. Same with many W of men on this board. We are the ones who do care to have a fulfilling marriage and sought out ways to make it better. When our Ws don't care to help out because they are getting what they want IMO that it's like cake walking only I'm not leaving because I AM A CARING HUMAN BEING WHO HAPPENS TO HAVE MARRIED A NARCISSIS AND HAVE CHILDREN THAT I LOVE, WHOM I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR, AND WHO I WANT TO BE THEIR FOR UNTIL THEY ARE ON THEIR OWN. That is why I am giving my wife that many more years to change her ways.

Mel,

I know you are a caring person and you give some of the best advice I've ever seen, so her me when I say I know you do not want me to resent my wife for all the years of her selfishness because it doesn't help our M. At the same time if she were to work on trying to build her desire for SF we would make progress, but at the same time you say she could end up resenting it because she may not be in the mood or have the moons in a line to help her get the desire. The only problem ALL THE THINGS SHE WANTS TO HELP HER TO "GET THERE" CAN AND HAVE BEEN DONE AND SHE WILL STILL REFUSE. That is why I say the mood and feelings are so relative as to be subjective to so many things that the list wouldn't end.

Gack: I don't remember, do you have any COM or is the OC your first child?

Specifically, did your wife have her hormone and thyroid levels checked when she went to the doctor.

It seems like, if everything else is going well other than the SF, your wife's problems may not have as much to do with the lawnmower-pushing, tattoo guy as they do with the birth of the baby.

That's easy. OM. She was thinking of SF with OM whenever she turned me down. For 10 years. OM - as always and as usual.

I'm beyond certain she still thinks of SF with OM quite often.

No, I have never said that standing up for yourself would cause resentment. I said having sex with you when I can't stand you would cause resentment. Bickering is not standing up for yourself, it is being annoying and obnoxious.



Yes to all of that. She will end up resenting you if she has sex when she is AVERSE to you. That is just a simple, true fact. So just having sex with you when she is averse doesn't help the problem, it hurts the problem. Really. If she does this often, she will become more averse and will associate resentment with even you touch.

The solution, of course, is to fall in love again by using this program. If she is in love with you, she would want to have sex with you. How is the rest of your marriage? I know you told me once you don't spend 15 hours a week together. Is that still the case?


here

Still,

I would say a true reason is: medical and this includes menstration, pain during intercourse, or sickness. Extreme fatigue would be a real reason, but let's look at some of this "too tired":

Too tired tonight mud (phone rings)

She's not too tired answer it and talk animatedley for 45 minutes while walking around downstairs.

This was a common scenario in the past.

Not meeting some of her needs? Possibly, but she had a list from here to China, that I got through and she still said no. I don't want to threadjack too much.

Gack1,

She was raised as a princess and thought she was going to be waited on hand and foot with every little detail how "she thinks it's suppose to be" never mind what other people might want it to be or think it should be. Nothing more than that. Addictions? She's addicted to diarreah of the mouth. She doesn't drink, smoke, is on no meds, is 46 3/4 exercise almost daily, gets her never ending supply of organic healthy EVERYTHING.

The camping is just an example. This is only DJ thinking from my point a few weeks ago: She was going out of town (for pleasure) and I knew she would complain about certain aspects of the trip and knew exactly which aspects (I didn't say a word, just know from experience). She did end up complaining about 75% of what I thought she would. Plain ride, moved rooms once, then moved to another hotel entirely, complained about food at chain rest. That is what I'm talking about. Some of the things are out of my control, but STILL MY RESPONSIBILITY and I'm to blame for it. I will not willingly put myself infront of her critical bus anymore than I have because it will make me more resentful.

themud, did y'all go to a MB weekend?