d) kick his [censored] out and go into Plan B until he sobers up

e) go to Alanon and learn to DETACH and do not attempt to meet his needs

The alcoholic does have other "needs" in that he needs to exploit and USE the spouse.

Let me put this another way. He may have other "needs," but meeting them will NEVER lead to romantic love because the alcoholics emotions are solely tied up in alcohol. It is all consuming. So, meeting his needs would NEVER result in a return on the investment. It would be a bottomless pit.

The best way to meet the true "needs" of an alcoholic is to get them into a treatment center or get them thrown in jail for drunk driving.

OR stay in the relationship working your own program of recovery and detachment until you become strong enough to accept a loving partnership with another person. But don't expect THIS relationship to be anything other than a very bad roommate situation.

Sure, they may turn it around, but you have no control over this, and it is this thought that keeps many in a dangerous and defeating relationship.

If you stay in a R with an addicted person you will run yourself silly fulfilling the black hole of ENs they have, and having to fulfill your own ENs too.

So Mel, what about the person who is not an addict, but is still so self centered that they can't engage in POJA because the feelings of others is simply not on their radar? My WXH did not drink, smoke or use drugs. He played video games but was in no way addicted. The closest thing he was addicted to was possibly work but even then I wouldn't call him a workaholic. Yet he behaved much the same way that OH describes of her H. He had his view of things and that was that. There was the odd person in his life who could influence his opinion on anything (his father for example). I was definitely not one of them - if I said the sky was blue he'd argue tooth and nail it was orange. If I wanted a project done in the house, I was better off calling his dad and getting him to mention that the dining room would look great with (...fill in the project...). If I told him I wanted to do a renovation, he would criticize it, tell me it's stupid, forbid me to do it myself or get it done and then refuse all other input on the matter - even his father. I wouldn't dare call his dad and ask him to talk to him about affection!

Even though we go to work when we're not in the mood etc. this doesn't jibe with MB principles, because if S meets SF when not in the mood according to some, it would cause resentment then aversion to SF.

IMO that anyone on this board wants to find something that will help their situation, but I would still go further and say that those on this board who has a S that is not intreseted MB principles or any other program is more of the problem than the one's posting on these threads.

I just got done watching the infidelity video (thanks Mel) and he did state there is no excuse for an A, but there is a reason, and I'll emphasize reason. When a WS has been vocal from the beginning about not having their EN met, could there possibly be a reason for A?

Let's be careful, Mel has mentioned alcoholics. NOT other addictions. I don't have enough experience to say that what would work for ONE type of addiction would work for another.

Alcohol has a chemical replacement to endorphins going on. Gambling is more an overstimulation to get those endorphins. Both addictions, but the gears under the machine aren't exactly the same. Not sure the response would be. THAT would be an interesting survey. I know 12 steps had been applied successfully, or at least I hear that, to other addictions. Does it work for ALL? Is the methods success rate comparable across the addictions it is applied to? Interesting questions...

themud - interesting point. If I as the husband am not meeting my wife's needs for conversation, she eats lunch with her girlfriends to make up the difference. No one has a problem with that. If she isn't meeting my needs for SF, and I find a girl on the side, THAT's an affair. Why is the meeting with the girlfriends not?

One could say that the wife and girlfriends thing isn't bad AS LONG AS the relationship with the husband is higher in her relationship hierarchy. As long as it isn't taking away effort and love bank deposits that SHOULD be going to the husband. And most people are OK with that. What's a married couple to do, live in a box with no outside contact? That's unhealthy.

But what if MY girlfriend on the side was not higher in MY hierarchy? Say I only see her once every 6 mos after a long dry spell of no SF. And this SHOULD my spouse decide to meet that need, I would drop the girlfriend in a heartbeat. Using words like "meeting needs" it is the same thing. But it is NOT. When we replace the general term of meeting needs with "talking" and "boinking" suddenly they ARE different.

Don't get me wrong, I have other needs. Recreational companionship is one of them. If my partner was meeting my SF and NOT doing anything else with me, I would get very dissatisfied. I cold support it with occasional hunting trips with my buds, say. It would eventually lead to resentment in the marriage, but once I get that girlfriend outside, it's a WHOLE different thing.

I think that's why a partner who is NOT meeting their spouses SF needs to understand just how BAD that is. All of the other needs can be augmented by outside relationships. I would hazard a guess that we all agree our husbands need some "guy time" and our wives need some "girl time." And we are OK with that. That can augment conversation, recreational companionship, etc. But SF? Nope. That has to come from the couple.

People say that the toughest problems a marriage face are financial. I'd say it's SF. Now my ex did not have the affair for SF, she traded SF for other needs. I was more than willing to make that trade, the excuse I was given was that when I met her needs it was because I was supposed to as her husband, like that made it have LESS meaning. She CLEARLY used it as currency with the OMs, but not with me. It is very strange how much these perceptions change things on the subject of SF. It's like an entire different class of problem.

Why didn't she put my SF needs as a priority? She didn't want to. She would say "I didn't want to because..." But the fact of the matter is, EVERYTHING said after "I didn't want to" would be noise.

And BTW, there were things she was asking of me that most definitely I would answer "I didn't want to because..." and it would be just as wrong.

I once had a pastor give a sermon on sex. His claim was that when you have sex with someone, you create a "soul tie" that is never broken. And that there is a finite amount of glue you have to be "soul tied" with other people. So if you have a lot of partners, none of the bonds can be very strong. It was interesting.

Tabby, there are lots of people just like this. The personality test we took when we went to the MB weekend tested for this very thing, because they believe that certain outlier personalities will have a very difficult time ever adjusting to the POJA, for whatever reason.

themud, I do not want my H to go to a job he hates every day and he would not want me to have sex with him if I hated it. So your analogy does not work. If he hates the job, I would encourage him to find a new one. If I hated sex, we would explore WHY and make changes to ensure I did enjoy it. But are you really saying you would want a wife to make love to you when she HATES IT? Who would want that?


That is a common reason for affairs. But there is no EXCUSE for such a despicable choice.

Shouldn't we specify that this characterization applies to ACTIVE alcoholics? In my opinion, recovered alcoholics (for the most part) are potentially better citizens, better employees and better partners, don't you think?

If this is the case, then I can take solace in the fact that he'll be exactly the same with OW. And she gave up a lot more than I lost to be with with him.

nc, most addictions do respond favorably to the 12 step program, with minor withdrawal differences. For example, an alcoholic really needs to sober up under medical supervision because withdrawal from alcohol can be deadly. Another key factor is finding a 12 step support group that caters to your PARTICULAR addiction. An alcoholic won't be any help to a gambling addict, but a recovered gambling addict would just because he has that experience.

Fred, don't worry about that. It is understood we are talking about ACTIVE alcoholics. you and I are perfect!

Hmmm..

I think you missed a few key points in my post. One was that he does something HE CONSIDERS nice for me. Maybe it's NOT what I need to fill that EN. In fact, it usually isn't. Now since he refuses to fill out an EN survey, I can't tell you exactly what his ENs are; I can only guess. I can guess pretty accurately but the bottom line is I don't know FOR SURE do I? But he does, because I filled out that survey. So right now my top ENs are (yes, in this order) FS, DS, FC. I'm sure when he was working my top ENs were affection, SF and conversation but those got knocked out of the running.

So him offering to rub my feet (as a prelude to SF for him), or go with me to get a Christmas tree, etc. instead of figuring out how to land some more carpentry jobs to tide us over until IF and WHEN he finds a real, live FT job---just doesn't cut it.

Fred, just to give you some background to make this more clear. Dr Harley used to own a chain of treatment centers. He understands alcoholics. Because of this, he has always said that when a couple comes to him for help and one is an addict, he insists they treat the addiction FIRST before he can be of help. MB principles are of no use when there is an ACTIVE addiction.

However, there are several recovering, sober alcoholics here who have great marriages.

YES!



\

YES! YES!

Yes, I read that in SAA. But I felt that the overall tone the thread was taking was painting with too broad a brush...

NC,

That exact scenario happened for about 7 years in my marriage. When we counseled with Dr. H I tried explaining this to him. My wife's top need was conversation, then affection. I worked 12 hour days, but dropped 1 full day to have 3 day weekends. I did this to help our M. My wife had such a huge need for conversation she actually had headphones for the cordless and wore it all day talking to sisters and friends, both in town and across the country. She said I didn't converse with her enough. I changed this as well and it did take about 6 months to become a "talker", but she continued her daily "affairs" with others to the point that she talked while I was home.

It was comical. I would call home and I would ask the kids what mom was doing and they would say, "guess".

Harley never addressed her conversational affairs with her mom, sisters, friends. What was he suppose to do, tell her to not talk to her friends and family. She had blocked me out of her conversation life.

I ask, how is this different? I've argued these points on other threads, but SF is way different. Dr. H says if other EN are met, they will lead to SF. I think this is so not true. I have Rec., conversation, and admiration met by friends and excuse me I don't want to have SF with Bill!!! Just like if she is having all of her top needs met by Angie, she doesn't want SF with her. She was selfish for "tricking" me into thinking SF would be regular and constant and now I'm 15 years in and we still struggle even though I meet her needs.

I was thinking how many times I asked her what I could do so that we could make it a regular part of our M. She had an answer everytime I asked and I built upon those answers to where at this point I would be quite the catch. She's run out of things for me to do in order to make it good, but still refuses to acknowledge it as a need in our M.

Interesting NC...

So what happens when one S has an EN and the other S has a high aversion to this EN or cannot meet it.

As a for instance, one partner's highest EN is Physical Attractiveness. Let's say the other S is in a horrible disfiguring accident which leaves them scarred and crippled, not pretty to look at. Not much the couple can do. One of the things the S fell in love with in the beginning has now changed. So do they change their EN, live with the S, or D? That is a tough one, and one for only that couple to deal with...

Although I don't think the ENs are of equal value, some have unique challenges.

themud, I don't think wanting to work or not is a good enough analogy because there is a selfish part of this tied in...you don't work, you don't get paid...if you were single you would work no matter if you wanted to or not (unless you were independently wealthy). But, there are many people who don't want to work, and don't...and are in relationships...so there you go.

What would be a better analogy? What if a H did not want to help with the children or do any housework, not uncommon, and they don't. When I was a SAHM with 2 young kids my H didn't help much (he would say otherwise) but he would come to bed a the end of a day and want SF...I said no often, mostly because I was tired, but also because I was resentful of his lack of help. I explained I was tired by the end of the day...it took all my strength just to get the house cleaned to the point it was when he left in the morning, so it looked like I did nothing. And playing, teaching, driving around, and keeping active two bright children. But that was an excuse...I didn't want to.

It was a few years after that he had an A. He blamed me because of lack of SF. The truth was, for the few months-year he was seeking SF outside of M we were the most active SF-wise we had been in a while (2-3xweek) so that didn't make sense. Perhaps he was thinking about the past. But that was an excuse on his part...

Mel,

I didn't say job. I said work. What if I decided I didn't want to work today or any various day for subprime reasons. I certainly would support my W if she didn't want to be at the job she's at and she hated/wanted to find another.

REALLY no use, Mel?

When mine was doing the drinking, I'd have taken half the wife I would have gotten had she been following Harley's principles at the same time. Rather than nothing until she got over the addiction.

I know at work I can work on two things at once. But ten things? I can do it, but I don't do any of them well.

Wait a minute. I think I answered my own question.