I thought I answered that?

I love this quote! I'm taking this and printing it out today.

What would be the use?

Still,

I see your point, but you can replace work with FS. What if S worked, but didn't give you a dime to shop with and gave you only oatmeal to eat with out sugar or milk?

And Still, my W is really trying to awaken herself to the destruction she has caused our M and how much pain she caused me. She is trying things in bed that she didn't even try when we were active in SF, but my resentment is so high that I see no time in the future that she will be able ease that resentment. I am hopeful, and she is open to SF anytime I want now and has said so. I have become so averse to initiating or telling her I want it that I don't and it leads to no SF for me even though she would probably be open to it. I am working on this. From the outside I can see that you two having more SF would not give him an excuse, but we have been too and I still got hit on by someone and came very close to breaking my vows because of my resentment and the thought that this will only be a short season of SF and go back to the way it was. That is how I feel, but looking in, if I would have broken my vows it wouldn't have made real sense because we've had more SF in the last few months than our entire M combined 15 years last month!

Mel,

You are one shrewed mammal. I totally respect you, I just have to say SF is not treated the same, but held to a higher standard and I think that NC is trying to figure out why and at what cost.

StillHere,

I was thinking the EXACT thing. And it WOULD be a problem. I think in that case the CIRCUMSTANCE makes a huge difference. If an attractive spouse were a need of mine (and who REALLY knows until you face this) and she were disfigured in an accident, I'd like to think it would be OK. However, if she got sloppy and slovenly out of laziness it would NOT be.

If SF were my need and she had some reason she could not do it as a result of an accident, or a rape, or something, I would be much more understanding than if there was no reason.

My situation was much like yours. Ex was a SAHM, I worked. (And I WOULD say I helped, because I DID.) The problem was, I had to be PERFECT. There could not be ONE thing wrong, before I was "granted" SF. She had some valid complaints, most definitely, but would never answer the simple questions: what do I need to do? Or it would be the standard answer: You should know. (Which is bullcrap, I hate that answer).

But in MY situation, SHE went outside the marriage. Why? I was "real" and had "real" negatives, OM was PERFECT. Did nothing wrong.

I can tell you this, my tolerance for that crap is now zero. The girls I date now, I have a list of no-gos. As soon as it starts to get serious, we run down the list of NCWalker's deal breakers. I explain them simply and clearly. There are no second chances. I have been WAY happier and have had some great relationships.

Sounds harsh, but the feed back I have gotten from my girlfriends is they like it. It's clear, and doesn't waste time figuring out boundaries by bumping against them.

GAWD, MY WIFE IS THE SAME WAY. I use to say the stars all have to be aligned even after a full day of her being pampered, a date, footrub, me watching the kids so she can go have coffee with friends, after I clean (and do way better job than she does at cleaning). I HELPED TOO!!! It was just never enough.

themud,

You got it. It IS held to a different standard.

List all the emotional needs that are horrible to withhold from your partner and OK to get augmented outside the marriage:

ALL of them but SF.

And the ones that are acceptable to withhold but NOT get augmented from outside the marriage:

SF.

I am not trying to justify seeking SF because it is ok to do so with the others. I am not saying augmenting ANY of the others is an affair.

I am saying SF is different. VERY different. And you CANNOT say that a wife withholding family commitment is on par with a husband withholding sexual fulfillment.

I am saying it should be treated differently, and if there is an SF problem in a marriage it should be aggressively addressed (I don't mean they should GET aggressive, I mean it should get a priority) because it CANNOT be scratched any other way.

A good reason WHY it is so different would be nice, but it is not a requirement. We don't necessarily have to know why something works to predict HOW it will work.

While I realize this thread has gone in many directions.....the common theme so far is a W who refuses SF.....

FYI, I came to bed last night, NAKED, snuggled up to H, was touching him, hugging him (you all get the picture....) and he was too busy watching TV to be "bothered"....until that is, the show was over, in which time I had already put my jammies on, rolled over, and was nearly asleep.....

and SF is number 2 on his list

who says the man doesn't refuse???.....

not2fun

You are Perfect NC.

I would argue that given any choice or decision there is a reason behind it...but SF is so used to being hidden, as women we have gotten used to not having to explain ourselves, or not even exploring it ourselves.

I don't think the ENs are created equal. Each one has it's own challenges. Some more acceptable than others. Personally I think Honesty is such a biggie it shouldn't even be considered an EN but an EHave to.

So there is a reason behind every decision, not an excuse, but a reason someone wants or doesn't want to do something. Whether it is valid or not, that is up to interpretation. Some think being tired is not a good enough excuse, or having a headache. I personally don't accept the excuse of being sick precludes you from most activities, my H disagrees (that would be another thread).

So let's say there is a valid reason. People have such scr$@ed up SF issues sometimes it takes therapy to untangle them. But without a woman giving a reason, men will take a 'no' as rejection of them (hey, who wouldn't). But guys....it's not about you. Are there things you could do? Perhaps, but sometimes we don't even know what those things are...

16 years M and I think I've only found in the last few years what I really need to feel comfortable enough for SF...and can ask for those things.

Another issue for me, and I think other women out there. SF is a very vulnerable act for a woman. We are taught not to be naked, it will entice men to want to have sex with us...which we have no control over. Trusting a partner enough to take off my clothes and place myself in a vulnerable position where I could be hurt physically means I have to be in a pretty good place. I have never been raped (touch wood) so this is not from a traumatic experience. This is an instinct and what I have been taught. To enable myself to close my eyes while I am completely naked takes a great deal of trust on my part and trust in my partner and not easy to do when I am feeling grief, sick, weak, tired....so how's that for an excuse..

Gotcha. And I agree A is the most painful thing and the thought makes me want to puke!

NC, the problem is that many on the board and Dr. H say that if everything else is a-o-k then SF will happen. There are many on here that will say that's not true even when the witholding spouse will attest to the fact that their EN are/were being met.

There are those who insist that there is more wrong if SF is not being met. I can go through a short list of what I have now decided NOT to do for my S, and yet we are having more SF than ever. This list has some EN intertwined and are definitely things she use to maintain had to be done in order for her to have SF with me. She knows though that she will not have her cake and eat too for much longer unless it changes.

What if she is "forcing" herself to have more SF? She has told me over and over that she is not and she enjoys it, always has, and was a neglectful wife who didn't know how to be a wife to a husband, but wants to change. Too little too late? I don't know. What if she does end up with an aversion? I'm ok, I'll get out and find someone else. Plain and simple. Enough is enough.

not2fun,

Examples have been used with the W. But you are exactly right.

We all think the WIFE mostly refuses SF. I'd bet 50/50.

We all think the husband mostly is the physical abuser. I'd bet 50/50.

It is not a GENDER thing, it is a temperament thing.

themud, of course it is a different standard! They are different things so they have be handled differently for the reasons I gave.

Themud, I hope this means things are looking up for you. I wanted to highlight the above statement because it does describe quite well how a woman might feel if, for years felt like SF was a chore and her H only wanted her for that (or whatever other "reason" she may have to withhold). Having been in that position myself, I can tell you that even when something does change, there is still a high level of resentment and a feeling that the change is not permanent. You don't get to this state overnight. You don't get out of it overnight either.

Still,

Can you not be hurt while clothed? Are women afraid to be scratched or something? I can understand some of this, but the position or nakedness doesn't mean you won't be hurt, so that still doesn't jibe.

I have to market my business daily and get rejected constantly. I can handle this from 1000s of individuals, but the one I love and who I suppose to trust with something so intimate and the only person with whom I will do it with forever rejects me a 1000 times and I shouldn't think she's rejecting me??? Sorry, but I'll stop putting myself in the position to be rejected and run an aversion to that position even though I want it.

TM, I am going to say this is not entirely true. I see alot of ppl who cherry pick this program and think this is the "need meeting" program and never take a look at the REST of the program. I had to explain to one guy who been here longer than ME that going to strippers was not what Harley had in mind when he spoke of meeting needs. He has been here longer than me. They never achieve the goal of the program, WHICH IS TO FALL IN LOVE, and then wonder why their marriage is just limping along. When a couple is in LOVE, SF comes naturally and freely and that is what the MB achieves when it is worked in its entirety.

There may be a few whose spouses don't want SF with them under the conditions you mentioned, but many don't even own a MB book and wouldn't know a POJA from a baloney sandwich. Writing long winded posts on a message board does not mean someone understands MB and has actually implemented its concepts. That has been my observation.

Just trying to point out women and men, I think, view SF in a different light. You can argue against this, but it only serves to make you look like a better arguer but gets you no where to understanding there are two sides to this, and understanding the other side.

If you don't understand the vulnerability of your W during SF it is very easy for you to belittle this vulnerability and really make her feel not safe. "Try a Little Tenderness" goes a long way.

It is not a game or ploy or tactic, it is a R, and if you are worried about your position and how it makes you appear, then you are making a conflict out of a mission.

I still have no idea what the purpose of this thread is.

The wheels on the bus go round and round...

Jumping jacks!

I am assuming you are in the US. People in other countries are MUCH less prude about sex. Remember WAY above when I said we don't talk to our kids about how to pick a spouse? Your point above is right on the money. It is so taboo here you don't even ASK for help. One of the great things about this board, none of you know who I REALLY am. So I am not afraid to ask these questions.

SF is different than the other ENs, but the path to solution is the same. Patience, understanding and a willingness to work by BOTH partners.


Amen. Here I go not making friends here again....
Of the rule of care, rule of time, POJA and radical honesty, I PERSONALLY think that if a marriage had two out of four above, it would be a pretty good marriage, but drop radical honesty, it is doomed to failure. It is a time bomb waiting to happen.

The girl I am dating now is ALSO a BS with no knowledge of these topics and this site. She brought something up to me, I hit a trigger her ex hit and she had the nervous pang that I might be fooling around with someone else. I didn't do it intentionally, because I didn't know about it. It was a little thing. FORTUNATELY she had the where-with-all to tell me, rather than bottle it and explode later. Know what I did? I took her my cell phone RIGHT THEN and let her scroll through the list of recent calls (it was a cell phone based trigger) and let her ask me whatever she wanted about who the people were. She said I didn't have to because she didn't want to make me think she was nosy. I said it wasn't about your being nosy, it was about me honoring the trust you have given me. I said ANY time she wanted to see my cell, she just had to ask. That concept FLOORED her. (So I explained radical honesty).

It wasn't the sex with the OM with my spouse that hurt. What ripped out my heart was the LIES.

Love the "EHave to". BTW, that is one of my deal breakers. I catch you in a lie, your done.



It is a very vulnerable act for a man, too. During the end of the marriage, when my ex would have SF, it was often horrible. It would start nice, but then she would use it to be VERY hurtful. (Another thread). I STILL struggle with it sometimes because of that, and it is hurtful to my gf. I have said "It's not you" to HER and she reacts just like the "textbook" guy. Only when I took the time to explain the circumstance, did she understand.

Want the other key point? I don't chronically use it as an excuse. I try again, because it is important.

I DO think, that for a woman though, it is closely linked to her emotions. I will give the gals the nod that mood has to be important for them. I has to be quality. But just because it is not quite so emotionally linked to a guy, doesn't mean it is NOT important.

If anyone is reading this who has trouble GIVING SF, I have been on BOTH sides of this coin now, having trouble getting it as well as giving it. IF your partner who wants is has some depth of character and is not a selfish jerk, the fact that you are willing to TRY, when they KNOW it is a struggle for you, makes WAY more love bank deposits that the act itself.

Know how I said above that it wasn't the banging the other guy as much as the lying? The paragraph above is like that in reverse. It's not as much the completion of the act as the EFFORT that you want to try.

Waiting until the time is right so that you can do it translates into "I don't want to" EVERY time.

And please read my caveat about the partner NOT being a selfish jerk. If you are partnered to one of them, good luck.