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I still have no idea what the purpose of this thread is. The wheels on the bus go round and round...  Must of us seem to just be enjoying the scenery. You CAN get off the bus....
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I know that lol. People posted responses and they were dismissed...nevermind.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Still,
Can you not be hurt while clothed? Are women afraid to be scratched or something? I can understand some of this, but the position or nakedness doesn't mean you won't be hurt, so that still doesn't jibe. Hold on mud, if you were marketing your business to your clients and I ran by and tore your clothes off, suddenly there you are in your b-day suit, you'd jump to cover your genitals, etc. The fact that you can be hurt with clothes on does NOT counter the statement that someone feels more vulnerable naked. Faulty logic. I have to market my business daily and get rejected constantly. I can handle this from 1000s of individuals, but the one I love and who I suppose to trust with something so intimate and the only person with whom I will do it with forever rejects me a 1000 times and I shouldn't think she's rejecting me??? Sorry, but I'll stop putting myself in the position to be rejected and run an aversion to that position even though I want it. Right on with the last part. SF is one of those one-sided things. We are all sympathetic to the withholding partner because it is a vulnerable act, and (again using faulty logic) assign badness to the shut out partner for it becoming more and more important. Problems in this area are catastrophes, as someone posted above - you get there over time, and the solution is also not quick. All the other ENs? Good old honesty, elbow grease and a few good MB weekends works wonders....
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I know that lol. People posted responses and they were dismissed...nevermind. Which illustrates why we fail at relationships.... Had you said "Hey, did everyone see that XXXs question didn't get answered?" You would have accomplished something. The "wheels on the bus go round" thing sounded (to me) like you were saying we were a bunch of yahoos not accomplishing anything. Then, "....nevermind." Well, that's just you quitting.
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If you don't understand the vulnerability of your W during SF it is very easy for you to belittle this vulnerability and really make her feel not safe. "Try a Little Tenderness" goes a long way. KEY POINT! (Though again, it IS a vulnerable thing for a man, too). Little steps, little things, with THIS EN make BIG WAVES. And I think feeling safe, more than anything, allows the unsure partner (be it man or woman) to perform. Guess I'm saying let's not forget it is ALSO a big statement when it is withheld. And can be JUST as hurtful.
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REALLY no use, Mel?
When mine was doing the drinking, I'd have taken half the wife I would have gotten had she been following Harley's principles at the same time. Rather than nothing until she got over the addiction. What would be the use? Nothing. Which is why I said I think I answered my own question.
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OK themud, did you talk with your W about her IB and getting her EN for conversation fulfilled by other people? Did you ask her for change? And after she didn't seek you out to fulfill her EN for conversation did you give up and go back to the old schedule?
Just a thought...
Yes I agree, you have some valid complaints, but what are YOU going to do about it? You are only in charge of yourself...
OK, so you are quite a catch and you are fulfilling all her top ENs. Are you sure? Have they changed? I think ENs can change over time...at least I hope the EN for PA goes down over time...or else my flabby body will get the boot.
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance!
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Guess I'm saying let's not forget it is ALSO a big statement when it is withheld. OK, so to put things in perspective...when it is PERCEIVED it is being withheld. When the partner assumes the rejection is aimed at the other, personally. And I know of no other rejection more personal and hurtful. BUT, at least speaking for me, most times the rejection has nothing to do with my partner...but about what I'm feeling right then. Some reasons (excuses) I've seen/heard...depression and grief. There are many M on here that have changed after the death of a parent. Young family and tired...the first 5+ years of raising a child are VERY tiring...it's like we never catch up on our sleep from the newborn-stage. Sickness....heaven forbid. Sexual trauma...past events that will suddenly get triggered and rise up. When I was dealing with a past trauma and in therapy I asked my H to go without for about 6 months because when I would close my eyes I would get a flashback image... All of these reasons/excuses I have felt, and NOT ONE had anything to do with my H...
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance!
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NC, the problem is that many on the board and Dr. H say that if everything else is a-o-k then SF will happen. There are many on here that will say that's not true even when the witholding spouse will attest to the fact that their EN are/were being met. ... They never achieve the goal of the program, WHICH IS TO FALL IN LOVE, and then wonder why their marriage is just limping along. When a couple is in LOVE, SF comes naturally and freely and that is what the MB achieves when it is worked in its entirety. ... themud, unfortunately, meeting needs does not mean a desire to have sex. I have male friends who meet most my ENs and I don't want to have sex with them. See the goal that Mel stated? That's it. When MB doesn't work, why doesn't in work? One or both of the parties does not have the patience to see it through. Same reason as why MOST things don't work. It IS difficult when you are going through it. We all have selfish components and it is hard to turn them off all the time. We all make mistakes. And the whole thing is damn unfair to the BS. There ought to be an award for a BS who can see through to a repaired marriage. (I mean, above and beyond the repaired marriage.  )
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StillHere,
Explain PERCEIVED. It's being withheld or it isn't. Wait, I see, you mean the cut off partner thinks THEY are the reason when they aren't.
All I can say is (again, having been on both sides of it now).
When I was cut off, I got almost the whole list of reasons you typed as reasons. And at that time, I thought them valid. But after a while, I didn't want to hear it. I was cut off. At some point it boils down to "she just didn't want to." NO OTHER THING is generally acceptable in society to keep saying no to than SF. If I keep coming up with excuses not to go to work, I WILL get fired. Not pay my mortgage? The bank WILL foreclose. It comes down to where the threshold is for not taking it anymore. If my ex were selling me something, she would have been accused of the "bait and switch". Because she was NOT like that before we were married. And I am sure the threshold is different for different people. I was pretty good about it until it hit the year mark. Others I have heard can wait almost indefinitely (It never fell off from lack of use, mah granny used to say...). Others, a couple of weeks and they are complaining about their spouse. All other shortcomings one is expected to "push through it" EXCEPT this one.
Now, ALSO having been on the not being able to side of things... I gave VALID REASONS for not being able to. I HAD valid reasons for not being able to. And it did engender understanding. With one GF ago, it was not good enough and we didn't work out. Current GF seems to be more understanding AND BECAUSE OF THIS, it is easier. But there are times when I have to "push through" even though it is difficult BECAUSE I love her.
Not everything I do for the one I love is fun for me.... and in reality, that's a pretty good definition of love.
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Still,
I've threadjacked enough, but W wanted her sovereignty and she lied about A after the fact on the Honesty Q, then lied about lying on it. Dr. H did talk to her about this, but she's a woman and no one can tell her what she can/can't do. No one owns her thoughts/feelings... your basic feminist IB crap! It's been way better since she's become a christian and she is happier even now when it's obvious I don't do the things she asked in order to have SF, because she didn't have valid excuses and she completely invalidated/discounted my feelings/needs. Narcissism stuff ya'know.
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[
See the goal that Mel stated? That's it. When MB doesn't work, why doesn't in work? One or both of the parties does not have the patience to see it through. Same reason as why MOST things don't work. I think most marriages that aren't happy are that way because they don't GET the program.[yes there are exceptions - and with some people, divorce would be success] They take bits and pieces, meet a few needs, [the "meeting needs" program] but overlook entirely the concepts of POJA, sacrifice, UA; will cherry pick a few lovebusters and then blame MB when it doesn't work. Its like cheating on a diet and then blaming the diet for not working. [my H's favorite trick!  ] I know people who have been here complaining about their spouses for YEARS who don't even OWN a MB book. They talk ALOT, split every hair, but achieve nothing. NOTHING. They read a few articles and call it good. But it is not GOOD. It is exaclty what they tell us in AA: "HALF MEASURES AVAILED US NOTHING." Some people are smart enough to read the books, understand and implement the program in its entirety. [read: BigKahuna for one] I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE. I was here for years and still missed very key points that prevented my H and I from falling in love. So we went to a MB weekend and on the FIRST DAY they identified a major lovebuster of mine that was causing enormous love bank withdrawals in my marriage. I look back on it now and am astonished I could be so stupid, but I was. [I have an amazing post over on the other forum telling Dr Harley my H had 'mickey mouse" concerns] Correcting that one problem paved the way to the successful implementation of another thing that eluded us, the POJA. All of these things made an amazing difference in my marriage. I learned that doing it half way just does not work. A half assed effort will produce nothing. This is why I tell ppl like themud to stop piddling around wiht this and just go to a MB weekend. Look at some of the best marriages on this board? Mine, the W's, tst and SMB, Vittoria, LousyGolfer and several others. They all went to MB weekends.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Dr. H did talk to her about this, but she's a woman and no one can tell her what she can/can't do. No one owns her thoughts/feelings... your basic feminist IB crap! Oh boy, she sounds just like ME. Here is my FIRST post to Dr Harley back in 2007. This was the beginning of my END: Hi Dr. Harley, we are struggling with the implementation of POJA. I knew this would be a problem for me because of my penchant for independent behavior. [I scored a 20 on your test and he scored a 5] But he seems to continually engage in angry outbursts. Over micky mouse stuff, usually related to money, even though we make a good living and are financially comfortable.
Can you look at this dialogue, which happened in the grocery store today, and tell me how this should be done? This is the 2nd week in a row he has exploded in the grocery store. You had mentioned learning POJA skills in the grocery store and it is not going well!
ML: does a salad sound good to you for dinner?
DH: that's fine
We approach the produce section and he picks up a head of lettuce
ML: I had planned on getting kale, romaine or spinach because there is no nutritional value in lettuce
DH: says nothing
ML: grabs a bag of shredded romaine lettuce
DH: I REFUSE TO PAY THAT MUCH FOR A BAG OF LETTUCE!!! [it is $2.99 whereas the head of lettuce is $.89] PUT IT BACK!!
ML, horrified and embarrassed at this outburst, tries to ignore him because she can't believe he is acting so disrespectfully over $2.99
DH follows her and says again: "ML, PUT THAT BACK!! I REFUSE!!"
I take the salad dressing I am carrying, drop it into the cart and say "that's it, I am done" and leave the store. He follows me out to the car with "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you can go back in and get the groceries. I will stay out here and leave you alone."
We had a similar scene the week before where he went into a rage over tortillas. I tossed 2 packages into the cart and then decided to add another. [we had company coming] He pitched a fit and demanded I put back the 3rd package.
Dr. Harley, just so you know, I am 50 years old, have a successful career, and am financially comfortable, and can damn well afford tortillas and romaine lettuce!
Every time he has one of these meltdowns over micky mouse stuff, I can hardly stand him for a week. What do you suggest? What a mess I was!!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Gee Mel, that does sound familiar the only problem is I would get verbally beat up for picking the head of lettuce in front of everyone, then get a lecture for 45 min. then have it come up with friends, relatives and brought up in the future about how I don't care about my families health etc. I would get it both ways. Again from another post would say nothing and ask which one she wanted because I don't care it's a non issue for me which lettuce we have. I would still get beat up verbally and then no SF because I did that.
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Gee Mel, that does sound familiar the only problem is I would get verbally beat up for picking the head of lettuce in front of everyone, then get a lecture for 45 min. then have it come up with friends, relatives and brought up in the future about how I don't care about my families health etc. I would get it both ways. Again from another post would say nothing and ask which one she wanted because I don't care it's a non issue for me which lettuce we have. I would still get beat up verbally and then no SF because I did that.
The Marriage Builders� Weekend
Minneapolis, Minnesota
January 29th & 30th, 2010
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Again from another post would say nothing and ask which one she wanted because I don't care it's a non issue for me which lettuce we have. How come my husband cares???? It's mickey mouse, I tell ya!! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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That's really strange Mel, I always pictured: ML: does a salad sound good to you for dinner? DH: that's fine We approach the produce section and he picks up a head of lettuce ML: I had planned on getting kale, romaine or spinach because there is no nutritional value in lettuce DH: says nothing ML: grabs a bag of shredded romaine lettuce DH: I REFUSE TO PAY THAT MUCH FOR A BAG OF LETTUCE!!! [it is $2.99 whereas the head of lettuce is $.89] PUT IT BACK!! ML, horrified and embarrassed at this outburst, pulls out her six guns and says "Well if yew can't pay fer a bag o' lettuce, can you DANCE fer a bag o' lettuce??!!!? {begins peppering the floor twixt DH's feet with gunfire} DH: Ahm sorry baby, it won't happen agin' ML: Durn tootin' yew little prairie poop, now yew carry my lettuce and smile while yer a doin' it! {DH trots off with bag of lettuce like obedient burro} Wow. You think you know someone, even virtually. 
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Somebody has seen Annie Get Your Gun one too many times....
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ML, horrified and embarrassed at this outburst, pulls out her six guns and says "Well if yew can't pay fer a bag o' lettuce, can you DANCE fer a bag o' lettuce??!!!?
{begins peppering the floor twixt DH's feet with gunfire}
DH: Ahm sorry baby, it won't happen agin' DUH!!! My H has a bigger pistol than me, you silly yankee!! He would shoot back! funny boy! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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