It has been a long time since I trusted my spouse. Wow, in February it will be 10 years since "the discovery". That is a long time to sleep next to someone you don't trust.

Hold, I can relate. A university down here emailed us that DD13 qualified from her state testing scores to take the SAT to qualify for a summer program there. She took is and got a great score, and was eligible, but we didn't send her there. She wanted to go to acting camp, so we sent her to that instead. Because we can't afford everything. It was a family decision we were all enthusiastic about.

What do you think about looking at this as a family decision? I used to also ask H if we could afford stuff, instead of talking through the decision together. I made a mistake, but I can make amends by doing it differently today. I think if you as a family looked at this, you would likely come to the same decision, that he'd prefer to do the Bermuda program.

One day's actions don't define you, make you some wimpy loser or something. You are so special, Hold, made with a purpose. When your actions and values don't line up, you felt pain. All that makes you is human, right? What is an action you could take today that would line up with your values? Did you ever read that You Don't Have To Take It Anymore by Steven Stosny? He encourages you to come up with a list, and males some suggestions, and one is to watch your kids sleep, how's that for something to bring you peace, to reconnect you with what you are doing daily that does go with your values?

I know that whole self-flagellation thing is familiar, but I don't think that's the only way to get relief from feeling in pain.

Hold...just a thought, but is there any chance that your son could actually work at the camp but still gain something from it?

You may have to sit your wife down and ask her not to even bring certain things up because you cannot afford it, but also because it makes you feel badly. Tell her that when she gets a job, perhaps these are the sorts of things her salary could go towards after the credit card balance is paid off.

Hold,

Why don't you say...

"MrsHold, I know you researched this and believe it may be something you really want for DS this summer. I know you know our budget cannot affor it and that you can earn the money to pay for it. I support you in achieving this for our family."

Would you consider adding...

"I am continually perplexed when you bring something to me, like this, knowing it is outside the scope of what we can do. Feels to me like you want me to feel like a failure, to feel bad, knowing I want you and DS to be happy and successful."

And this is me, believing you like MrsHold to feel delighted...that it pleases you when she does. That's what I believe of you. Within moments, I think you resent her feeling happy...doesn't take away the initial pleasure for you.

LA

From my point of view, without trust, you have no relationship. In order to live with a woman you knew you could not trust....just think what you had to do to YOURSELF and YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT....in order to continue on with her.

I could not live with a man I could not trust. It would emotionally and spiritually kill me little by little. The sad part is, MRS HOLD has had chances to prove she is now trustworthy.

1. She could prove to you she does not look to spend beyond the budget ever.

2. She could get a job and pay your accounts back that she stole from

3. She could save money by cleaning her own house

4. She could refrain from blowing the budget every chance she gets as if it means NOTHING

5. She could use her skills as an accountant to make up a detailed family budget and stick to it.

Any and all of these things could have and would have told you that she was "now trustworthy" and then you could have begun to trust her again. But NO. She did not do ANYTHING that would cause you to deem her trustworthy. She simply...can NOT be trusted. And you KNOW THIS. And you still have to live with her. And it probably kills you inside.

Not being able to trust your spouse would be heinous. A destructive and heinous position to be in. The fact that you are living with an untrustworthy person would make you feel bad about yourself and most everything else. Every day would seem bad. Living with such a person.

She may as well have had an affair on you for as much damage as she has done to your trust.

HOLD things could be tearing you up inside. No wonder you are not very happy.

1. You feel you must stay with an untrustworthy spouse
2. Your wife PRETENDS you have $$$ to spend on expensive stuff
3. Your wife you live with does not care to help support the family.
4. Your wife does not care for you yet you must support her
5. You love the kids and the wife comes with them.
6. You love your wife but cant trust her and do not like her.
7. You cannot enjoy being around a person you cannot trust.
8. She lies to you, to herself, and to others around her.
9. She is an accountant who refuses to stick to a budget
10. She does not help look out for you or the family..financially
11. She is often mean to you
12. She is rude to you
13. She is diseased with herpes
14. She is a human leech
15. She offers nearly nothing to you
16. She does not give anything but expects you to sacrifice everything including your own mental and physical health.

I dislike your wife so much for her selfish behavior. I could not live with such a person.

I would have anxiety attacks since my inner being would be constantly screaming at me to "get away from this person! NOW!"

Last year S15 went to summer school in the mornings from 8 to noon. Then he hung out with his friends in the afternoon. Mrs. Hold does not see that as sufficiently enriching. I have no problem with that sort of schedule for the coming summer. S15 has complained his "college prep track" academic requirements are so extensive he cannot take many electives. If he took an English or history class over the summer, that would open up a couple of slots for him to take culinary arts (the HS has a full commercial kitchen as a classroom), auto shop, etc. during the school year.

Also, our town bought a bankrupt country club last fall to prevent it from falling into disrepair. They are offering town residents family pool and tennis memberships for $1400. If we got that, all 4 of us could use the facilities for the entire summer. Seems to me a much better deal (although much less exotic) than spending $5000 on 3 weeks for S15 and then having done nothing for D12 (or ME - yikes, did I just mention my needs should be considered too?).

Or maybe S15 has ideas of his own. Maybe he could get a job as a CIT or counsellor at a local day camp. It is not easy to sell "hold the hands of a bunch of 8 year olds" when your mother is offering "spend 3 weeks in NYC living in a college dorm".

I am not suggesting the kids sit home and stew in their juices all summer. But I am not enthusiastic about spending $5000 to cover only a portion of the summer for one child. Now the question is, what am I willing to do about my lack of enthusiasm. Wish me luck in the coming argument!

LA, it has been so long since Mrs. Hold felt delighted about anything involving me. I don't know how I would feel if she expressed delight. I used to like it. Now? I might only resent it. Hard to tell. I have given up even trying to prompt her delight. I don't believe I can accomplish that often enough to be worth the effort. Moreover, I would feel bad about prompting her delight if there were no reciprocation. I would not take delight in her delight. I would feel foolish.

I would like to be in a marriage where I did take delight in my wife's delight. I would like to be in a marriage where I was motivated to work toward prompting my wife's delight. I do not believe I will ever be in that kind of marriage with Mrs. Hold. The only question in my mind is whether I am capable of finding someone else who is interested in creating such a marriage with me. Which would rquire me to become a person worthy of such a marriage. I am not that person today. And I do not belive I will attempt to become such a person while I remain married to Mrs. Hold. As Soolee said, I get too much secondary benefit from punishing Mrs. Hold. That "benefit", albeit small and warped, is assured. I don't see myself choosing to pursue the much riskier path of attempting to achieve happiness.

"I am continually perplexed when you bring something to me, like this, knowing it is outside the scope of what we can do. Feels to me like you want me to feel like a failure, to feel bad, knowing I want you and DS to be happy and successful."

For some reason, I don't think it's that she necessarily wants him to feel like a failure. I think she's really disconnected and not 'getting' the extent of the damage she did with the spending. She doesn't 'get' that he's waiting for her to take steps to help rectify it. She's sort of glossing over it in her mind, almost like she doesn't believe him - doesn't believe that what she did was all that bad...

One thing that could possibly be part of that is if Hold is keeping the bill paying, balance knowledge, cc balances, etc. apart from Mrs. Hold and not showing her the numbers monthly. Could be he isn't explaining to Mrs. Hold just how much they need in the bank before he can retire and how long that will take or before the son starts college, or before a home renovation can take place - things like that.

If you're not being open and honest on a monthly basis about the finances, she may be assuming the finances are better than you say they are. Perhaps if she saw the actual numbers regularly she would realize how ridiculous it would be to approach you for more money.

She has seen the numbers. She wishes they were different. She behaves as if her wishes were reality. When she ran our finances, she spent us into oblivion. When I took them over, I shared all information with her as to our income and expenses. She refuses to accept there isn't more money available.

It is a DJ, but I think what she actually refuses to accept is that she made an irrevocable mistake in marrying me. She thought I had much more family money and much more earning potential than I actually do have. Now that it is too late for her to go back and be 29 and never been married no kids, and go find a better sugar daddie, she refuses to accept that she is never going to get to live the kind of lifestyle she imagined she would get by marrying me.

Which is only fair. After all, I refuse to accept that I am never going to get to have the sex life I thought I was going to have by marrying her.

See, we are a perfect match!

Hold...I think you need to go over them with her monthly - not just once. I think she needs to see the numbers improving but ever so slowly. She needs to be reminded repeatedly what predicament she put the family in. Sorry to say...

Are the finances improving any since you took them over?

It is a DJ, but I think what she actually refuses to accept is that she made an irrevocable mistake in marrying me. She thought I had much more family money and much more earning potential than I actually do have. Now that it is too late for her to go back and be 29 and never been married no kids, and go find a better sugar daddie, she refuses to accept that she is never going to get to live the kind of lifestyle she imagined she would get by marrying me.

Yeah...it is a DJ, but it's worth asking her about, Hold. I think this is the kind of negative speak you keep feeding yourself that contributes to your poor self image. I think it's about time you got it out in the open and then put it to rest.

Where did she get this idea?

WT? I did not know of that "discovery" you are talking about. Was there OP involved?

For $5k, you can just set that aside for when you buy a drivable used car when S15 gets his drivers license min a year+.

I think that would be a healthy dose of radical honesty.

Actually, it's just "blaming" or "victim puke" without really doing any effort towards whatever goal.

JM HOLD is talking about when he found out his wife, who had been managing their money, (she had that accounting degree after all) blew over 112K of his retirement assets, plus ran up all thier credit cards...in less than a year (BLEW THE MONEY ON NOTHING BUT JUNK) and hid all the reciepts from him.

Then, she kept lying to him until he found out the money was GONE!!!!

I would have divorced her back then. She will do nothing to pay any of it back. In fact, since then, she has forged his checks, stolen money from credit cards, opened her own credit cards that she ran up, and misused (overspending) his debit cards whenever he lets her have one for the day.

She is terrible.

I wrote that from Hold's POV...my way of asking was this close? Could this be a hidden payoff in the way he addresses his life...can't know what MrsHold is really thinking/not thinking...she's not here. She hasn't been in all this time, has she?

But if he feels she does this to reinforce his belief that she wishes she could go back in time, pre-kids and marry a bigger sugar daddy (and I am implying that Hold has played that part at times in their marriage), then that's a false payoff...he likes that she reinforces what he thinks of himself...the self-hatred, proving he's right, he's a loser, not enough...again, a distorted payoff.

Hold, you didn't address if this was how you felt or not...that she will bring these ideas to you as if they are doable, when she knows they are not. My statement was a way to ask her what her pay off was in doing so. You seemed to flip it over onto her in your response.

And in your monthly budget, do you have a slot for each of the kids, to keep expenditures somewhat balanced? To show an annual total, as well, to make sure neither are consuming more than the other to a great degree? Would you consider having a marital slot in the budget, for UA time, marital vacation, separate from family vacation? Anniversaries?

I'm picturing my own spreadsheet; I thought "slot" was better than "cell".



Why not move the boundary, Hold? When she comes to you, before you hear her out, ask her, "I'd love to hear your ideas for our kids education, entertainment, events (insert appropriate one). What I will no longer do is listen to them until you've checked our financials...gone over our current spreadsheet. Once you do that, I'm all ears."

What do you think? Respectful. Healthy. You can do both without even liking yourself.



So, is part of what you experience when she does this feeling like a failure? Or does it just give you a big dose of resentment, where you weren't considered, who was left out, her using you to dash her dreams, again?

False payoffs don't go just one way. Or else we'd stop doing the dance.

LA

HOLD, I just got a thought. Perhaps your wife always asking for expensive things, things that only Millionaires buy, is her way of "keeping you down" and "punishing you for not making the money she wants to spend">

I think it is a little snide way to keep you unhappy since she is unhappy without unlimited spending money. That she thinks she deserves.

The woman is bored and selfish. She should either be put in prison for what she did to you or forced to work at a terrible ditch digging like job for the next 10 years.

She seems pretty heinous to me. She killed you HOLD, and continues to do so....just not physically.

Every time she mentions some thing she wants big money for, she is trying to make you feel bad. She wants to dig that knife in DEEPER.

An ACCOUNTANT surely knows how much money is available and where it goes. Offer to buy her the latest accounting software so she can see the money flow for herself.

And I would not buy that _________ wife...ANYTHING. Rather put the extra money toward your retirement. Also make the kids have stuff that is reasonable, not stuff and programs that extremely wealthy kids go to. That is insane. It does not help the kids get ahead. There are much less expensive programs they can benefit from.

I show her the numbers all the time. She is not interested in what is reasonable and what is ridiculous. Were you here when she asked me for more money one month and I laughed at the thought that we had any extra money and she got angry that I laughed?


That is something I can do. Ask her why she makes these requests. What is she hoping to accomplish. I predict she will answer "I want these things for our kids. Don't you?" When I point out I want them too, but we can't afford them, she will deflect / distract. We shall see how close my prediction comes to reality.


Yes, I do. That is why I refuse to spend more on S15. We are already spending on the Bermuda trip. The next "slot" should go to D12.


No, I am not enthusiastic about that. I am not interested in more UA time, marital vacations, or costly celebrations of our anniversary. BTDT, and my needs were never addressed. Not going back there. I know our marriage has no chance of happiness without those things. Hence my prediction that our marriage will never be happy.


This I can do as well.


Yes, I feel like a failure when she asks for expensive items.


That too. Resentment. Left out. Especially if she mentions things to the kids before checking with me. I have asked her not to do this. She continues to do it anyway. Then I have to be the "bad guy" who says no to Mom's great idea. I hate that.


I am sure she gets payoffs or she would stop doing it. I have stopped hoping that I can get her to give up the unhealthy payoffs.

After all, I am not willing to give them up, either.

After all the thousnds or millions of words here, the dynamic is very simple.

I was a failure at work before I met Mrs. Hold. I married her in the hope that copious sex with a beautiful woman would provide me with the confidence needed to succeed. It was a stupid idea and it is not surprising that it has failed.

She was supposed to be the cure for my unhappiness. Which, of course, is ridiculous. Happiness must come from within.

Now, she serves as a useful excuse for my failure.

If I were healthy, I would succeed at work. To provide a better future for my children. And our marriage would succeed or fail. But I would be happier either way.

However, I do not believe I can succeed. I was failing before I met her. Now I am older, tired, cynical, depressed and pessimistic. If I could not succeed then, why should I expect to succeed now?

On the other hand, I am confident that I can succeed at failure. So that is what I seek. What I work toward.

She is engaged in the same mechanism from the other side. She uses my lack of success and general wimpiness to excuse her failure to address my needs or do her internal work. Each of us finds it easier to blame the other than to work on ourself.

Both of us are familiar with and tolerant of failure / unhappiness. Hence we prefer the certainty of failure we can blame on our spouse. To trying and failing in a way that is purely personal.

Unless or until one of us is willing to risk more a personal failure. Neither of us has any chance of success.

As J_M said, it is all victim puke.