It is my feeling that we need to urge our kids to talk about these things when they begin to think marriage. I wasn't told this outright, but the implication was that before you get married you shouldn't talk about sex too much because it will lead you into temptation. So people go in blind. If a couple would just sit down and talk candidly before they marry about their feelings in this area, I think it would help. True, we don't have crystal balls, but if you know you can't wait to jump in bed, and your fiance is like "eh, whatever," then you can address that BEFORE you say till death do us part.

I'm not condoning premarital sex L2, but how does one know their needs?

That is a quandry. I have wondered about that too. For me, I knew from previous relationships how hard is was not to cross that line. The "physical" part of the dating relationship was always a big deal to me. And when we did get engaged and set a date, I am amused to admit that one of my thoughts was, "Yay, I finally get to do it!" When we went for premarital counseling and had the individual part of the "sex" session, the pastor asked me if I had any questions or concerns. I said my big fear was that H wouldn't want SF as much as me. The pastor kind of chuckled and said, "If that's your only concern, then X is one lucky man." So even though I didn't know exactly how it would go, I sort of extrapolated that it would be a big need for me and even that it might not be for H. I just took the pastor's comment and figured he was right.

Don't get me wrong. I am not unhappy in my marriage and H is not some weirdo or anything. But I think it would have helped us to talk it out way back then instead of just silently try to figure it out. I spent too much time thinking something was wrong with me instead of just asking.

Understand what you are saying. (And my VALID REASONS was done illustratively... everyone has valid reasons....)

I am hoping to get understanding as to why with EVERY OTHER NEED there is an attitude of meeting in the middle EXCEPT this one. Because there is something about SF, the withholding partner is more often then not, sympathized with and the cut off partner is told to be patient. AND that the difficulties of the withholding partner in the situation are sympathized, but the needs of the cut off partner are base and carnal and they should just take a cold shower.

Guys vs. girls? I hear (no statistics) that in a younger marriage, it is a problem with the wife withholding, esp. after the wife has kids. (Was in mine, my xW shut down after the first born). And that in an older marriage, it reverses with the woman hitting menopause and the man not being interested anymore. But in no way am I saying it cannot happen the other way around.

What I AM saying is that the importance is frequently understated. My counselor experiences were the same. It is very frustrating to take that line of action. Among my secular friends, there is a surprising consensus that if it is withheld, one should expect the other partner to stray... Not saying that is the right way to think, not saying it is wrong. But it IS a way a lot of people think.

Want another illustration? Rape is a crime. There is something key in the act that makes it different, and therefore a different category of crime. If I tie you up and force you to listen to me to satisfy me need for conversation, I'm just a weirdo. What would you charge me with?

See? If it is happening, it should not be taken lightly. And the counselors out there need to wake the heck up and NOT be scared to explore the issue. With at LEAST as much urgency as all the other ones.

The Bible verse is a good point (for the Christians) and there are MORE than that one.

"Because everyone else does it" is never a good reason, so assembling a list of people who have the problem and saying "SEE SEE" to a frigid spouse won't solve anything.

But sitting there telling the frigid spouse to take their time and just work it out.... or these things take time... or it happens to every marriage.... or it's ok to feel that way ... is wrong too. There needs to be some kind of active effort to overcome the issue, and quickly. (And I'm not talking the occasional headache, I am talking when there is a chronic problem with it...)

What I mean is, if you are (embarrisingly) masturbating 3-5 times per day and think you are going to need SF 3-5 times per day, that's a little creepy!!! Lol! Now, if you were mb 3-5 times per day and thought, "Hmmm, I will only need SF 1x/mo from S", that would be another story. For this reason I have no answer other than being honest with son/daughter and letting them know that it might be such a strong need for you or your S, that this needs to be... possibly in some sort of 'contract' or something a long with other needs?

Dr. H says love is conditional, so why not start it off right with it being in writing with discussions of coming back to it at a later time?

Boy that would be an interesting line in a pre-nup.... "You tell me no ten times and I get to go outside the marriage ..."

I am going to bring up another point - the xW would ALWAYS threaten suicide if we were having problems. And she knew that because of my nature, I would NEVER not answer the call no matter how many times she cried wolf. It became a form of abuse. But how do you NOT take a suicidal statement seriously? Under what conditions do you say "go ahead, I dare you..."

So the withholding spouse doesn't see the urgency in resolving the no SF thing, thinking that the cutoff spouse is a "good person" and won't go outside the marriage.

See the parallel?

In ALL the other needs, you CAN go outside the marriage to augment the missing need (with appropriate restrictions). Is it as good as having the need met by your spouse? NO. It is not. But it's not BAD either, and you can "get by" until the two of you work it out.

But SF? Again, NOT saying you should be allowed to go outside the marriage, just saying take the issue very seriously.

L2,

The reason the pastor said this, is because it is usually reversed from your situation

We had a SF conversation at dinner with some friends (don't ask how it got started) and come to find out they are having SF 7-12 times per week!!! And she wants it as bad as he does and does things that would make most women blush... My W was quiet after this and was livid afterward. We no longer see those friends, but he told me that when they were about to marry that she told him she was high drive and wanted to make sure he was up to the task. If it's that time of the month, it doesn't matter, she'll do other things, and she enjoys them.

I think my W was very jealous that our friend had this kind of intimacy with her H and even if they fought, she still wanted it because she stated that it's ridiculous to think arguing could keep Ss from sharing each other when arguements are just a much a part of M as SF is.

I did not wait for M, neither did my W. You can say this might be part of the problem, but that's pretty ignorant to say since (and this is a guess) most M have this problem regardless of whether they waited or not.

So the withholding spouse doesn't see the urgency in resolving the no SF thing, thinking that the cutoff spouse is a "good person" and won't go outside the marriage.

This is/was my marriage. I feel/felt trapped at times.

And here they are:

Affection - my kids are affectionate to me, not the same as my spouse, but it would scratch the itch.

Sexual Fulfillment - absolutely cannot go outside the marriage on this, at least not in the way I would state my marriage vows.

Conversation - same sex coworkers at lunch could fill this no problem.

Recreational Companionship - see conversation above.

Honesty and Openness - see conversation above, but I disagree with Harley on this one being a need, it is a requirement.

Physical Attractiveness - if my spouse got slovenly, I could look at someone else.

Financial Support - hard to get outside the marriage, but would result in "throw the bum out" mentality. Funny. If I don't provide enough money for my spouse, I am a bum. But if I don't provide enough nookie....

Domestic Support - See financial support above. The point of these two is that people would be BERATING the withholding spouse for NOT doing this.

Family Commitment - go see grandma. Always full of family commitment.

Admiration - can get this at work. Unless I am not doing Financial Support, then probably not so much. So, I get it from the bowling team...

You see? It is REALLY skewed regarding SF.

NC,

Again it is very difficult getting anyone who refuses on board with this thinking and Dr. H only says that it will happen if other areas or S EN are met.

IMO, refusing is similar as an A in that the S CHOOSES not to, just as they CHOSE to have an A.

NC can choose not to DS or have conversation or affection, but you are a bad spouse for doing this, however S who refuses SF is "going through something, is tired..."

Not seeing it...each one of these has it's own unique situations and "fixes' outside of marriage, none of which is conducive to a healthy M.

I have NEVER said the guy should suck it up and take it...and that the woman (because it can just as frequently go the other way) has to just accept the EN not getting fulfilled...

Working on ANY of these EN's is working on the M.

NC, you are proof in realizing what happens when an EN is not getting fulfilled...you didn't just take it.

I hear your 'side' of things, but it is said a bit too simplistically and not understanding of other points of view, other situations.

It is very black and white to me Still, you either are having SF or you are not. You are either being affectionate or you are not.

My own experience and Dr. H. went over this with my wife, was that I was at work 10-12 hrs/day. W talked all day long on the phone to friends and family. She said I was not conversive and affectionate enough. She was unwilling to spend less time talking with friends and family because she was a woman and could do what she wanted "if it isn't harming anyone". Of course this was relative in that she WAS harming the M, but couldn't see how talking to others was harming our M and thought he was ridiculous, as her mother is a phsycho therapist and talking is a good thing... to anyone.

So, if she is having her EN for conversation met by others, doesn't care to wait for me to fulfill it on the phone from work or at home, why should I have waited for her to be ready for SF when she "gets in the mood"?

I think SF should a subject Dr. H should really confront at the risk of losing many refusing S, instead of laying down a blanket statement that "if you meet your S's ENs then SF will happen."

This is the classic 'chicken-or-egg' question.

To my knowledge, it's never been solved, either.

OH,

I agree, it will never be solved.

One thing I have learned here is that ENs aren't *just* things you need to be a well rounded individual. They are things you need to feel romantically attracted to someone. There is a big difference. For example, I needed affection and since WHX wasn't going to be affectionate, I got a dog. The dog was very affectionate and I loved her, but I can say for sure I wasn't romantically attracted to that dog. Sure, I needed affection for me, but all by itself it wasn't enough to be a marriage.

Same with FS. I'd say we both had a fairly strong FS need. I did everything I could to advance my career. He just worked longer hours at his job and complained about every penny I spent. It didn't contribute to the health of our marriage - because we were both taking a completely different approach. There was no POJA. I'm now financially secure on my own - more so than in my entire marriage - yet I don't feel romantically attracted to myself.

It's not as simple as a checklist.

Neither is SF for that matter. If your W said okay, do it but do it quickly and get it over with, how would you feel about it?

See, there's actually a whole package of things that need to be there to feel that romantic attraction. It's easy in the early days - you have hormones and pheromones to help. Later on it takes work. And communication. And POJA. My marriage had all but 3 of those and look where it ended up. Oh, but I had all my ENs met in some form or another.

I agree

I think that SF, meaning sexual fufillment, means something different to women than it does to men MOST, of the time.

The reason that it is on the list is because it is an emotional need. When someone lists that as a need, it needs to be addressed. For me it would be acknowledged as one of the most important examples of intimacy in our marriages. And to the credit of mens intuition, SF represents to us that our wife wants us. Its extremly personal. Its no wonder that men list it as high on the list. Remember though it does not mean because it has a number 1 in front of it that the issues surrounding SF are as simple as checking off a grocery list.

For some of the needs we find it easier to provide because they seem to be easy, like domestic support for example, The man pays the bills and takes turn with the dishes and laundry to support that need if that is all it takes in that situation. If their are real problems with performing those things then the couple works on them.

It should be the same with Sexual Fufillment. But the issues with intimacy go deeper for us than that and are harder to overcome with something like Domestic support. But then, maybe for some couples DS is higher on their list. Maybe there are great obstacle for them to overcome to get the proper DS in thier marriage.

Ens will change over time and the MB concepts were designed for all marriages. So the list idea is viable for all of us over the years.

Now IMHO if all the emotional issues that are present in a relationship have been drawn out and dealt with realistically sex will just be the result of that. Women like sex right? What men have to do to set the mood is find out what she wants. If there are old issues that have not been addressed or are buried in the mind how can we fix that without time and communication. If the wife will not address this very important need in many mens married life then both are hurt.

Patience is half of what it takes to get to the bottom of many problems. We need to insist that the issue be dealt with and then listen and learn. Then we can sort out the truth from the bullcrap that destroys intimacy. The things that turn on a wife and mother sexually can be drastically different than what turns on a high school student. Its still in our minds and imagination where we get our stimulation. Why would anyone let someone into that mysterious dark place inside unless they trusted them? There is poetry that talks about this in females. On the plus side when the doors are opened well it can be WHOA BABY.

marital currency? No man it is the reward for us guys, Its the gold, its the prize.. Ho-HUm time to roll over and go to sleep, my job is done

Why should it be the H job to set the mood? Should we say it's the wife's jobe to set the mood for DS?

ENs need to be met lock step forward to make any progression. If the refusing S says, "You need to do A,B,C, then you will get D." The refused spouse can just as easily say, "No, you need to do D,C,B and then I'll do A." But you see that D (SF) is off the table completely if the refusing spouses doesn't want to give it.

I don't think it's a S jobe to "find out" what puts them in the mood, especially if as you say EN and turn ons change with time. M is not a guessing game. If you date someone for X amount of time and trust them enough to marry them and SF starts to wane because you do not trust them, get the F#$% out of the M before you end up dragging kids into the picture or have invested so many years into it that you would rather just keep the status quoe (which is when A can happen later in life).

It was mentioned about compartmentalizing SF for men, but women do the same thing with other needs. In the example of our past friends either she compartmentalized SF like men do or she came to the realization that she enjoyed SF and wasn't going to let a fight get in the way of enjoying it, or the fact that he lost his job and she had to start working while he made only 1/2 what she did. Her M meant something deeper than to her than, "He won't do this so I'm not doing that."

This is why MB principle need to work lock step and both people have to be on board.

"Us" is a sweeping statement. Is it REALLY different, or is it different because that is how we have been conditioned in the US?

I travel to Asia a lot. I was introduced to a "bath house" and completely unprepared for what happened. My impression was at first it would a bunch of guys in a bath with some drinks then a massage later. (Don't snigger, legitimate massages are VERY common over there).

What I was not expecting was what they call the "hoo hoo massage" and in fact was not asked if I wanted it. Needless to say, I was shocked, flushed red, scrambled away all panicky. To them, that's just how it was done. There is no way I COULD have performed. I was in full blown panic mode.

But I am not BIOLOGICALLY different than the other guys there. And my equipment does work. The only conclusion is that my comfort zone is learned, albeit I may be more predisposed to a conservative view of sex. But to them, that kind of stuff is business as usual.

So if the comfort zone is learned, and we are calling SF different because of this, are we saying that we have trained in problems with this in our children?

Again, I am not saying SF is as simple as a checklist. I am using it to illustrate HOW DIFFERENT SF is than all the other needs.

AND saying that it should be the primary focus if it is an issue, not "it'll come with all the others..." NOT because it is the most important, but because it is the most difficult to resolve. We tend to view it as a result, not a problem.

HERE'S an interesting question. If the refusing spouse said the above, but then renigged on the D repeatedly, would that not be abuse? (Assuming A,B,C were met in good faith and let's say 80% correct).

You know the biggest reason in my head that I can't get over that gets in the way of me marrying again? SF. It basically went from good to nothing when I got married. And I didn't change, I did all the same stuff I did when I was dating. Now, over time, I started chasing her less and less because I felt like a performing puppy that never got the treat. But this was after years of saying to myself "be strong, it's a phase."

So now, I am REAL reluctant to marry. Why? In my mind, I treat every girl I date with the respect and care as if I WERE married. Follow the MB principles and everything. In my mind, a marriage will not GAIN the girl anything, but will end SF for me. That's a demon I have to overcome.

NC,

That is my sitch. I was told by my W, "Do ______ and we will." I did everyone of them. She refused so I got better at doing them, but still got refused. She ran out of things that I could change about me or what I do and I now have aversion to doing some of those things as they give me an ickey feeling of emptiness from how hard I tried.

ML says that S can have resentment or have an aversion to SF from doing it when they are not in the "mood" or don't have their EN filled to the brim. How about those of us who did A,B, and C, never got D and now have an aversion to doing... say A, only 1/2 of B and 1/4 of C? Now we're suppose to just jump back onto the wagon when S says, "Ok, I'm ready."

I don't think so, I now have little trust in my wife doing D, being available for D, etc. I don't believe her and have little hope that SF will be something in our M that I can say we are different because WE DO IT AND DO IT ALL THE TIME. I know what that might sound like, but how about the W who says, "Oh, we have a great M, he converses with me and is so affection, and his DS is the envy of my family."