NC,

The funny thing is we have more sex now and I do less than I've ever done in our M. I do not share my most intimate thoughts or complain, I don't make the $ I use to, I do not share my future dreams etc. So all that bulls#$%^ about DS, conversation and FS is something conditioned into American women. Sorry, just my opinion. I'm happier as a result of more SF, but it's not even close to where I want it. Not because frequency or variation, but because my confidence was destroyed by her words, actions, and refusals. I'm happier because I don't care if I don't do those dishes, as before I made sure they were done to give her more time and to be nice so that maybe we can SF, but from 13+ years of being refused even if I did all those things, what is she going to do? Refuse me more? Big deal, no I'll take the dog for a nice walk while she does the dishes or play with my kids. It's now her loss that we are where we are, not from my lack of trying, but from hers.

SF is definitely as you say a problem not a result of or lack of A,B, C, and D.

I still think we're trying to resolve the chicken-or-egg question. But I will say this. Some counselor we saw once (probably one of a few generally worthless ones...) did say something useful. It was his opinion that issues with sex were not a problem, but a SYMPTOM of a problem in the marriage.

I agree but I think it's hard for most couples to define that problem. I dont' know your wife mud, but based on putting myself in that kind of situation with my overwhelming difficulty with honesty due to fear of provoking anything from an argument to him leaving (abandonment), I will tell you that my biggest crime in my marriage was not being honest. And it impacted our sex life. And his view is similar to yours, though I don't think we have had those absolute dry spells that you experienced. With me it was more I was just going through the motions (ever see Annie Hall?) if I wasn't really in the mood.

I know what you are saying, but I have to agree and disagree with the counselor, but if for example your H gave you lots of affection in the beginning and then didn't and brushed you off, would the counselor say it was a symptom? Is it possible he would coach your H into "just giving her some footrubs, random hugs, etc."?

However with SF, he would not coach you into "just..." He would say it's something else in the M that is causing this.

My question on here would be: To refusing Ss, did you see some sort of change in your H/W and it turn you off to SF? Or is it possible that you placed unreal or unsaid expectations on your S and when they didn't come through, you were turn off to SF?

I'm still trying to figure out why we were like rabbits then it died a sudden death. Yes kids etc., but the infrequency and dry spells that we had and many M have doesn't make sense. I quickly became aware of what my wife told me would make it easier for her to get in the mood, but even when those were accomplished it didn't happen.

We would make some chicken on one of those camping grills, some salad, a glass of wine, and some ice cream, watch a movie and 1/2 way through the movie we were ripping clothes off. So how does this not happen even if the former was repeated dozens of times after M?

Simple. Wedding ring cuts of blood flow to libido, which in a women is located in the tip of the ring finger.

(Sorry, not true, sweeping generalization, but I couldn't resist.)

I don't have an answer Mud and it's honestly one of the reasons I'm actually frightened to try to repair my marriage (or if this one fails, get involved in another long-term relationship). I'm afraid that if by some miracle, Steve and/or the MB counselors are able to help us restore romance and that sense of being in love in our marriage, that I will not be able to carry my end of the bargain--which will be a LOT of SF! And yes, we were rabbits too once we became sexually intimate in our relationship. Did I love my husband any less when I was too tired, too this, too that, to have sex with him? Probably not. I did have an overwhelming sense of dissatisfaction with my marriage in general...almost from the beginning. Like I'd read the synopsis of a book and loved it, went out and bought the book and it wasn't as advertised.

Then again, there were times in our marriage where as I said before, I was all over him like white on rice. I can't really pinpoint WHY this was only at certain times and not at others. It's not like I was all of a sudden wildly happy in my marriage; all my ENs were being met, etc.

Melodyland has pointed out something else that's been a big factor in my marriage and when I tried to surface it with my husband, I walked away feeling like *I* was the one with the problem (a result of most of our discussions, hence my huge reluctance to open up to him now). I also don't like being groped. I would have hands down my pants, up my shirt while washing dishes at the sink. I'd come into the bedroom to change my clothes to take the kids somewhere and hands would be all over me. I'd walk past him in the living room and he would be laying on the couch and he'd start tugging at my jeans.

I know that some of this is probably me being overblown in my reaction but time and again...well I started experiencing anxiety any time I found myself in that situation and tried to avoid even being within arms reach of him. And he picked up on that real fast. And berated me for not being hot for him 24/7.

Back to some of the questions of ENs though. You ask a good question about why it is was termed a symptom of a problem and not a problem. Good question. I started thinking also back to dating days and how we progressed to SF in our relationship.

First date SF? He// no! It wasn't even a first date kiss! It was quite a long time before we got to SF and he did NOT pressure me. He wanted me to set the pace and I have to tell you, that left me feeling overwhelmingly loved and cared for. I got LOTS of my ENs met with no expectation for SF. Long phone conversations. Hand holding. Cute cards. Foot rubs. Help cleaning up after cooking him dinner. Compliments on my hair, my clothes, my perfume, etc. Of course for him, much of this was leading up to SF. So I have to ask the reverse side of your question.

You wonder why SF dried up after you got married.

I wonder why all those other things dried up after I got married. Yes, I still got them on occasion. But there was always a price tag.

"I'm going to take you out for a nice dinner, compliment you, talk to you for hours and then we're going to go home and scr*w our brains out."

I'm not saying this is wrong but why is it EXPECTED as payment for the nice date? It sure as heck wasn't when we were actually dating!

OK OurHouse - do you think the key was there was no expectation of SF? That meant you were giving (which sounds appealing to you, everyone likes to give) rather than him taking (which sounds bad to you, a violation of boundaries)...

THEN the question becomes, once the cycle of withholding STARTS how can the withholding spouse NOT think it has become EXPECTED. You cut the other spouse off for a month, and OF COURSE they expect it....

THEN the question becomes, why doesn't the withholding spouse just "psych themselves up" that it is GIVING by them and not taking from them and restart the cycle, with the thought that yeah the first couple of times might be tough, but we'll get back in the groove.

(The risk with that being an underlying issue not correctly identified and it RUINS things...)

Why is it expected before SF? That is why I dont't understand, if it is still being done, say at about 40%, but at times 90%, and then sometimes at only 25% can't this be recognized and continue the SF? I'm not expecting SF to always be, say at a 90% perfect or 100% satisfying everytime, and sometimes it might be a quickie at 25% of what it could be, but I would recognize it as possible accept that it will fluctuate, but not disappear.

I'm not asking for advice, I'm just stating what my sitch is. I am giving examples of my M and why SF is different and how this is not being addressed by Dr. H or anyone else for that matter. Dr. H has one of the best programs, if not the best, but it is geared toward the woman's side (I'm generalizing her do to H mostly complaining of the lack of SF).

I have always referred to this as "the laundry and yard work factor" and I realize I am probably totally off base with it.

Let's say you vacation in a great place and think "wow, I could live here--there are so many cool things to do, etc."

And then before you know it, you are living there (don't laugh--this has happened to me about 4 times in my life). But you rarely, if ever take advantage of the stuff you did when you were a tourist. Why? Well you own a house and you have to do the yardwork, the cleaning, etc., etc. And you neglect (yes, neglect) to set aside time to enjoy the place you once loved to just go play.

For some reason, this is a fairly common thing that seems to happen with SF once couples marry. And I'm not pointing fingers at the wife or the husband because somehow they both contribute. She gets caught up in day-to-day stuff and is 'too tired, too stressed, too (fill in the blank) for SF like they used to have when they were dating. He gets complacent and figures it's there whenever he wants it so he stops *courting* his wife.

So it's not like I've found the solution to the problem. Perhaps I've further defined it.

Or I'm just talking nonsense. I don't know anymore.

Speaking personally, no I don't expect to be 'courted' before every episode of SF. But I do like to feel that I am generally more than a piece of meat or a piece of property to be enjoyed by my husband whenever he feels the urge. There is a HUGE area of gray between those two extremes and I think that general husband/wife satisfaction can be found in there...somewhere..for each couple. Just because I haven't found it doesn't mean it's not there!

To be very honest again, this is why (before I cut H off totally because he stated he refused to work to improve the marriage with me even though we both admit we're miserable), I would initiate at least 3-4x/week. It left me feeling somewhat in control of the SF 'schedule' and meeting this EN. Maybe that's it--it's about control? Because my husband has a HUGE issue with this. I could be the initiator 7 days a week and he'd have a problem because he resents ME having the 'on/off' switch or the 'control'. And the "no one is going to try to control me" philosophy is a big driver in his life.

And a big problem in my marriage.

NC,

Right from the start, it's almost like you've been a fly on the wall at my house. Yeah, a month/s go by and how can I not expect it? A,B,C had to be done to her satisfaction (subjective and relative at that moment) not just for the hour/day/week, but months. I put up with it for years, but no more.

I'm not trying to beat up the ladies here, but like NC said it's very cultural to the US. From what I've seen/read/heard it's part of M and culture to have SF. My W let it get to a point where I am totally broken, but has now made it my problem and I have to fix it even though the confident sex partner she once had is not even in sight. He's gone. I'm not sure he's coming back.

SF needs to be addressed separately because it's admitted that it's a different EN, but for some reason the means by which to make it satifactory is the same, and for many it doesn't work when the S is not on board with MB.

OH, I can agree with your last 2 posts completely. I think though, that the neglect can go both ways and the expectations as well. She expects him to come home and do the yard work or bring enough $$ to pay the bills instead of gambling and buying 4wheelers every month.

Our friends from previous example is what I call the exception, obviously. She sees arguements, and sometimes laziness as part of M THAT THEY BOTH DO, and those things are just as much a part of M as SF and so SF she be done, just as the yardwork will eventually get done. I think your example of SF being touristy magnifies the point that SF is some sort of luxury that is not mandatory in M, where the example of our friends says it is mandatory. We can live without DS or affection just as many on here will say you can live without SF, but it makes for a miserable M.

I contend that SF not be a luxury, but a staple for a healthy M, just as DS, FS, and the like, but it gets treated like that luxury. Do A,B,C and we'll have enough money for the luxury and Dr. H uses the love bank as an example, but SF is treated totally different.

One of my favorite things about the MB philosophy is the idea that you can remain "in love." How many times do we hear, after awhile it just fades. Or, you can't be teenagers forever. I'm not talking about being teenagers. I'm talking about enjoying what God designed us to enjoy. I have never thought of it the way you put it - SF being a luxury. But that does seem to be a pervasive attitude. I think you may have stumbled onto a big key. If those other needs are considered integral parts of a marriage, then this one is too. It is part of marriage. If I had not wanted SF, then to be honest, it would have been cruel of me to marry. I mean, it's a given. That's like having kids when you have no intention of taking care of them.

I also think you've hit on a key point about SF being a luxury. But I also think so many of us are guilty of putting all the ENs in that category. Nice to use when you are a tourist but once you live there, they get tossed out with the bathwater. (mixing metaphors, sorry).

I'm not comparing dishes to SF. Of course the world won't end if the dishes don't get done. But why, when I was a 'tourist' did I have help in that department but not when I relocated?

That's just one example. I could put that example on the table, for either husband or wife, for probably EVERY EN that Dr. Harley lists..including of course, SF.

OH, Exactly.

However Harley makes SF the end result, but doesn't say FS will come if you meet his other ENs right? What would happen if Harley said, "Oh, come on just f@#$ him when he gets home, give him... when you have 10 minutes, let hime get you..." and the result will be him being affectionate and conversive. But he will tell refused spouses just the opposite.

Now clearly I will admit he has said that the effort must start at the same time, but I've read ppl here that said if they did SF BEFORE getting what they need would make them resent or have an aversion to SF in the future. The exact opposite is occuring in my M. I'm now being averse to conversation, DS, affection and even FS, but we are having more SF than ever before. Was she being selfish while I did supply those things and now sees it or is she now seeing that I am apathetic to her hollow words now and had better put her money where her mouth is? I don't know.

I seriously would not have married her if I would have known I would have been left high and dry. There are H on here that would do anything for their W, and I was truly one of them. Now I'm not sure I would and it makes me sad to think I was tricked into so much stuff in order to make it happen and then became the fool.

This is why it would be nice to see Harley address this, but he will not because his base is women, who are predominately in America the low drive S.

It would also be interesting to find out how many H drag their S to MB weekend vs. W who drag their S. Drag is not what I mean, but are the initiators.

"Another effective motivation to repeat new behavior is to experience enjoyment after you behave in a new way. For example, if you have a need for sexual fulfillment, and your wife agrees to make love to you whenever you help her with the dishes after dinner, chances are good that you'll get into the habit of helping with the dishes. This motivator is MR2 because it's usually less effective than MR1."

This is from Dr. H's newsletter that ML put up. Now without reading the whole thing this part makes my point. Can this be flipped? Yes, but it would be oh-so-sensitive to do that and cruel.

But I don't know if it's even as simple as Dr. H writes.

It's a complicated viscious cycle. John and Jane get married.

A few short months into the marriage, Jane notices she's working all day just like John, but rushing home to make dinner, clean up the kitchen (maybe sometimes they do it together...) and then find some time to sit with John and watch TV in the evenings. Jane likes to read but John likes her to watch TV with him. So she leaves the book and sits in front of the TV. She falls asleep. John gets irritated.

He's a bit irritated by the time they get to bed. Let's say he iniates SF. Jane either refuses or maybe she pulls an Annie Hall and she's there-but-not-there, KWIM? John gets more irritated.
Jane feels a bit out of sorts herself. She's tired. She worked all day, came home and cooked a meal, cleaned up the kitchen and didn't get to read her book.

The weekend comes. John wants to go play tennis. But the laundry has piled up and the toilets are filthy. Jane should probably ask for help but this couple has not embraced MB skills yet in life. So she doesn't help. She tells John she can't play tennis until the house is cleaned and laundry is done. John doesn't help her. He flips on the TV and watches the game.

Jane finishes up and sees John lounging around. She's mildly aggravated. So she's a bit pissy all afternoon while they're playing tennis. They get back and she just wants to take a nap before they go out. But he wants SF. She figures ok, if we do that now, perhaps there will still be time for a short nap before we meet Jim and Kim. But he wants a marathon session, even though she's already said she's tired and wants a nap.

They go out and John is all touchy feely with his new bride and she's just aggravated. She's not the best company. John is embarassed and now he's pissed off at his wife.

They get home. They are either not speaking much to each other or he again approaches her for SF and this time she outright refuses.

He starts thinking "huh? This never happened when we were dating."

Ok, I skewed that to be a bit more of John's fault than Jane's and I'm sorry about that. I tried to make it 50/50 but I can't seem to totally get out of my own skin to write it that objectively.

But do you see what's happened? It's not a simple matter of do this and get SF (like a Pavlovian response) or don't do this and don't get SF. It's really a lack of early implemenation of Harley's program! If John and Jane had started with TWO concepts: PORH and POJA, then they each would have felt safe bringing up their distress to the other. But they instead keep it inside.

I honestly think Harley's program makes SO MUCH SENSE, it should be required to get a marriage license!

On the other hand, here's a quote I found today that says....something. I mean, it says something on the husband's part for sure. It just doesn't say WHAT that husband will do when he's warm...

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Many men out there are exactly how you describe, but what about the ones, and I'm an example. I was like that somewhat (I did do a lot), then I ramped up my part (she was SAHM) to an extreme to where she was actually irritated that I would make a large breakfast, clean up and was in the way all the time. Then She didn't like how I folded laundry, and put them in the "wrong" places. Once we got those kinks out of the way there were always more things I didn't do or did do, but she's actually ran out of those.

We have bunny ears for our tv, no cable or sat. I can barely get anything in and watch maybe 3 q. of a game on Sunday. I only watch ftbl or baseball (only the WS). She's gottin' rid of all my hobbies and friends.

I can understand the story you laid out though. I see it with our friends Ms. Slothy guys.

Your sitch sounds different.

I never asked my H to give up his hobbies. In fact, I wish he had more. In fact #2, I feel a bit 'baited and switched' myself as I dated and married an outgoing, gregarious guy who had lots of friends, a great social network, what I thought was a promising job where he was doing well, what I thought was a pretty happy if on-the-small-side family, and what I thought was an interest in being socially and physically active. A guy who grew up in and had roots in an area of the country that I had adopted as my "forever home" (after moving around a LOT!)

What I got was a guy who complained that his friends constantly fell short and wanted to move to start over (lather, rinse and repeat about 5 times), he didn't like his family and in fact, darn near hated his mother. His job was precarious; he was in danger of getting fired. When he did leave that job to look for bigger better jobs in the city where he convinced me we just had to move (hence my taking an insane, crazy job that set off severe panic/anxiety disorder and full blown panic attacks), he was never able to find a job and was depressed about that. The new city was very expensive and our budget called for two incomes in order to make it work. He complained about my long hours, mandatory travel. He didn't have a lot of patience to listen to my work woes. In his mind, *I* had a glamorous job; what could I be complaining about?

I got home most nights and had to cook dinner (at 10PM), be cheerful, did about 90% of the housework on weekends.

I was a runner. He ran with me a few times and then complained about his knees (which was valid--he's had a lot of surgeries). But then he complained about MY running. Not too badly but there were enough pouts. He complained more about tennis. I taught him how to play; he hated the game. He never liked it when I would go out and play. He found fault with most of my friends. He never asked me to stop socializing with them but he crit He found fault with my family. It was 'us against the world' except that I'm not wired that way. I'm a very social animal.

Fast forward to today. I have done the bulk of the child raising. He did have a great paying job off and on for various years of our marriage but a few months ago, I did the math. He's been unemployed for almost 8 years of our 21 year marriage. Maybe more--I should recount that. So I've done the bulk of the income generating too. I handle the bills and I handled the bill collectors when we were desperate. I handled the bankruptcy and the bk courts. He couldnt' bring himself to come with me to fight the bank's lawyers.

I did/do the bulk of the housework, grocery shopping, cooking and laundry.

When I try to find things for us to do together for RC time, I fail. A few years back, I signed us up for a fencing class. He was so ultra competitive, that it sucked the enjoyment out of it for me. I like to bike ride (nice weather) and spin (rotten weather). He wanted a fancy new bike years back so he could ride. We bought him one (when he was working), he didnt' enjoy it so it still sits in our garage. He hates spinning. This morning, I suggested to him that maybe we could buy a few couples' sessions with my trainer and he said he didn't want to work out with me.

What does he want to do? Well, besides move "home" ("because all my friends are there and I have no friends here and I never should have left"), his idea of a weekend is to head to his alma mater's home football game and tailgate all day long before stumbling into the stadium.

I like tailgating and going to a game as much as the next person but every weekend?

I'm really letting off steam and venting here. Sorry about that. The truth is, I don't know if I want to try to recover my marriage. I'm going through the motions because we have kids and I feel I owe it to them.

Yep, just flip genders in my sitch. Only she was SAHM, and started demanding to take over bills and checking. "fine", the problem is that we never had savings after she took over. She never went out and spent/spends in one smack, it just dribbles out for coffee, lunches, candles, stupid stuff that I would be disciplined on or she would say frugal. We are paying the price now though. She will not take accounting advice for business purposes from me "cause we have an accountant". But after the fact I'm 90% right and we have to go back to the drawing board. The funny thing is, is that when something else comes up she will not take into account that I was right the last 9/10 times with business stuff, so poof we end up being hindsight 20/20 for her and see I told you so for me.