I haven't had much time to come on here lately as I've gone back to work full-time after being a SAHM for over 7 years and with 4 children that manages to fill up my time pretty fully.

However I wanted to ask people's advice with regard to childcare and custody matters.
A temporary custody arrangement is in place at the moment where I have the children (DD12, DD9, DD9 and DD5) in a pattern of 2 weeks for me and 1 week for him. We alternate weekends. WH now lives with OW not far away.
I agreed to this arrangement in large part because I was shell-shocked at the time (I had just found out about all the email exchanges between WH and OW and couldn't believe that the man I loved was capable of all he did.) Also I think I was bullied into accepting this on the morning of the court appearance by his lawyer and mine. (I am now in the process of changing in that she has let me down a second time with regard to Christmas arrangements)

Anyway I feel that this arrangement is not good for the children, especially the eldest. OW is behaving as if she is replacing me and WH is making it clear in a non-verbal way to the girls that if they don't accept OW then they may very well lose him. They love their dad and are afraid of losing him. I intercepted a text exchange between OW and DD11 where OW discussed her urinary infections. Last weekend WH and OW came to the children's end of year show as a couple and this was very badly percieved by friends and neighbours. This was a family event in a small village which we attended as parents not in any other context. They were snubbed by many close friends and even the acquaintences took it badly. I tend not to mention or discuss WH and OW to the girls as I want my home to be a haven of peace for them, not a stressful place. I did say to them that this latest presence at the show was an 'inappropriate' way for her to behave.

WH keeps writing emails to me with the same line over and over, asking me to do what is good for the children (strangely enough there has never been any discrepancy between what he thinks is good for him and what's good for the girls). He even asked me to tell them that OW was a lovely person so that they would get on well and this would create a happier household for the girls when they are with them. I ignore all of these emails and never respond except with very factual information regarding the girls that he needs to know. This is driving him crazy.

I would like to ask for full custody but it appears this is not so easy to get now that a precedent is in place. What do you think I should do? I have taken councelling for DD11 (just 1 session so far) but she is such a kind, sensitive person she doesn't want to hurt anyone, her dad included.

Tully, if you think you agreed to it under duress (however that is spelled) or because you were 'bullied' into it, try to get it changed.

I am thrilled that I caught your post. I wonder about you often and include you and your daughters in my prayers....for real!

Merry Christmas. You are a fabulous woman. When you look into the mirror, I hope you see your specialness.

Ask for full custody whatever it takes. I am sorry your attorney let you down and I understand being shelshocked. Get the best meanest attorney out there.

WOW, as someone who was raised in a similar corrupt environment, I would only IMPLORE you to be sure and give your DD's very clear, concise MORAL GUIDANCE. When kids are being taught that wrong is right by adults, they learn to doubt their own instincts about right and wrong. As a girl, I concluded early on that I must be a very stupid girl because my instincts about right and wrong were NOT VALIDATED by a sane adult.

So, hopefully you are telling them adultery is immoral and evil and that the OW is the enemy of their family. They need moral support to defend themselves from the assualt they are receiving from this vile SKANK and their father.

I would fight very hard to keep your daughters away from this filthy affair. Many here have this agreement in their own papers that the children never be exposed to the adultery partner.


Teaching little children that wrong is right is not good for them. I would point out to your H that it is not in your children's best interest to whitewash his evil. The OW is a vile, filthy adulterer who is shagging their father. There is nothing "lovely" about that.

She would not be hurting her dad by protecting herself from his corruption. I think it is important that you, as her mother, take that stand here so it does not fall on her shoulders. It is up to you to protect her from harm as best you can. And that means not allowing her to be corrupted by dragging her into her dad's affair.

Tell the NEW attorney in detail all about the OW confiding in your daughter she has a urinary infection, etc....presumably from shagging your husband too much!!!!

God this OW is sick.

I agree! Teach her to respect elders, but at the same time to NEVER silence her own feelings!

OT, but this is a great website for you and your daughters to visit: www.daughters.com. It has a lot of great advice for kids in your daughters' situation, forums to talk about it, just a lot of great info and help.

When I was a kid, my mothers SILENCE on my father's corruption hurt me as much as his affairs. It kept me perpetually morally confused and full of self doubt. Nothing MADE SENSE in my life growing up. It was like growing up in the house of mirrors, everything is distorted and incomprehensible. Wrong is right, right is wrong, and up is down.

Because of my parents dereliction of duty in teaching me right from wrong, I had to figure it all out on my own in my 20's and 30's. And amazingly, my own instincts at 4 or 5 were right on! But they had never been validated and guided, so they were dismissed and self doubt ensued.

Mel has voiced what I would have said

Get another lawyer and fight for full custody. I don't know what it will take but you will be the best mother figure they can know.

You might have to fight dirty to get this done. If you can prove that the OW skank is endangering them in any way. Do it.

Run this all by your new lawyer.

Prayers for you.

Hey stranger!


Classy.

I would ask for full custody. IMO you have nothing to lose should the custody remain the same or have the same percentage of time if the scheduled days are altered. Where does DD's IC stand on issues like custody?

Me...within the confines of the law, I would have done whatever I had to in order to keep my kids away from the adultery filth. If I had to expose every disgusting detail of H's A (and even pre-A idiocy) or drag OW into court to protect my kids and hopefully shut him down, I would have. Whatever happened with the assault charges against MIL?

There are no guarantees no matter what you do but I would prepare for battle so to speak. As much as H's A hurt me, NOTHING pissed me off more than the damage he inflicted upon my babies.

Keep ignoring WH's whining and let him stew. I agree your home does need to be a haven of peace, but I'd still occassionally check up with the children about how they are feeling and if they want to talk, just so they know the door is open. Eldest DD's feelings are understandable but I'd still talk to her about the need to protect the ones you love...parents should protect their little ones, siblings should protect one another, etc...and sometimes the people we love do things they shouldn't and protection is needed from them until they act appropriately.

Hang in there.

Welcome back Tully!

I fully agree with BR. I also applaud you for getting DD11 into counseling.
Have you talked to DD 11 about what is appropriate and what is not appropriate conversation with an adult?
For a young girl her age and in her situation it is very hard to talk about what your feeling. Sometime writing it out helps. Maybe suggest to her that you both could share a journal where you can write out things that can't be said or are to hard to say. That sometimes takes the edge off the situation and makes it easier.
This journal could also be shared with the counselor to help her work through her feelings and maybe the councelor can give you some insight on situations with DD 11.

This will also give you documentation via the journal or councelor should you need it for court.

Thank you all for your advice. I think I will ask for full custody, as B_R says, even if it fails at least I've tried.
As for my attitude towards WH and OW I have tried at all times to behave as I would like my girls to behave if they found themselves in the same situation. (I haven't always succeeded but I try to get back on track as soon as I can whenever I deviate.)

Melody, I would like to reassure you that I am unequivocal in my disapproval of WH, OW and the A. The fact that I refuse to have any contact with them speaks volumes to the girls. I am clear that I feel this was wrong but I try to avoid putting the girls in an emotional maelstrom by talking too much about it. My non-verbal attitude is that this is the way life is and sometimes tough things happen to us over which we have no control and the only thing to do is look to the good things in life and move forward and to refuse to allow the sordid, dirty things to pollute our lives. (that's the theory anyway!) Sometimes there is nothing I'd love to do more than tell the girls straightout what I really think of WH and OW but then I see in their eyes their love of their father and I can't do it.

The other reason I don't talk about WH and OW is that I want to leave the lines of communication open with my girls on this subject. If they know that I would react aggressively and emotionally any time they bring up the subject then I think they will not want to talk to me. The psychologist asked DD12 to fill in a form at home which was very clever IMO. It was a list of sentences to complete and although I didn't attend the session I could see in the completed sentences that she trusts and loves me but she only loves her father and this made me feel better.
DD12 is at a difficult time of her life; her body is changing, she is getting interested in boys, she has changed from primary to secondary school and this is a big change for her, her relationship with her friends is sometimes complex. The last thing I want to do is make her life even harder. I want to be the safe place she can come to where we have fun and relax.

I like the idea of a journal. I'll encourage her to do that.
Thank you again.

One quick concern here.

As you hire a new attorney and try to change direction here by going for more custody...you must address the counterargument that almost always follows such change in direction...

Why now?

WH's attorney will, no doubt, attempt to contort such actions as being both vindictive AND an attempt to get more child support....thus, NOT in the children's best interest.

I am not saying that "I", Mr. W am questioning your motives as "I" think your daughters shouldn't be anywhere near WH and OW, but the court WILL question your motives and, unfortunately, there have been a lot of women that have come before you that have attempted to use the court to lash back at their ex's and/or to get more child support.

So...what to do?

Consult with an aggressive attorney and seek his/her advice on how best to minimize that mis-perception. Personally, I think the timing of your filing for asking for full custody is important. You need to APPEAR to be doing it based upon a significant aggregiious event or a litany of recently documented grievances. Perception is everything in court as Judges often rule on instinct rather than the actual pile of documents that they don't have the interest or time to read in full.

For example, the text message OW sent your daughter. You send her an email telling her how inappropriate such is and to knock it off. Maybe block her from DD's phone. Then OW goes off on you and engages in a email fight with you and says some other really inappropriate stuff concerning your children. No doubt, WH will then chime in with even more material and immediately thereafter you file your motion strictly OUT OF CONCERN FOR YOUR CHILDREN. It just HAS to SEEMINGLY be about them. I know you are in Plan B and running around pushing buttons isn't in your nature...but this custody battle is going to be a war...so prepare yourself for battle.

Another factual situation includes a job change or a move. I know you just went back to work recently...but have you considered looking elsewhere for a job? If say, you had to move (for a job or other reasons), the visitation schedule you have now would need changing. Right now...things are convenient because the WH apparently can get them to and from the same school so he lives in the immediate area. MOVE, far away, and you'll merely be retaining primary (which you are now) and you can ask for MORE to make things easier for you and the girls (travelling will be difficult ON THEM).

Other reasons...perhaps the daughters...in counselling, express a strong desire to alter the arrangement.


I'm not saying you have to have such "event", just that doing so will make your WH's attorney's job that much harder.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - an "event" may also "prompt" you to file for FULL custody WITH supervised visitation. Remember...you want to ask for MORE than you really want and negotiate down from there. You want to be in the position where you "graciously" give him every other weekend and Wednesday evenings without ANY exposure to any opposite sex unrelated paramours (unfortunately, if and when he marries OW...she'll be then "related" and there is nothing you can do)

I do see what Mr W is saying, tully. My own thoughts are that whether and how to fight for full custody is actually a legal question, rather than a moral one alone. You need to ask your new lawyer whether you should fight, and on what grounds you would have a reasonable chance of winning, given the legal system in France.

It is one thing to say that you should try, and at least you will know that you've tried, but first, trying is going to cost you and your daughters money. Your lawyer will probably charge by the hour to prepare your case and write documents. If you never had grounds for winning in the first place, then you will have used more family money to fight a lost cause.

Second, I think that what Mr W is suggesting is that an action that could be seen as vindictive by you could end up hurting you in court. The legal systems of all our countries (France, certain states in the USA, England) seem to want no-fault custody solutions for children. All decisions are made from the perspective of the best interest of the child, and this is interpreted to mean that the girls need their father as much as they need you, regardless of what he has done to break up their home (short of being a murderer or rapist). Divorce is usually granted on a no-fault basis, and living together is being given the same rights as marriage in our countries/states. Thus WH's skanky girlfriend will be treated by the courts as WH's quasi-wife, somebody that you do not have to like but you DO have to respect. Unless her unfitness can be shown in some way, she will not be kept away from the children.

I know you saw the text message, but this was at least a couple of months ago, and you did not respond to it then, so a response this much later might be seen as manipulative. I can only suggest that you respond as Mr W says promptly to subsequent misconduct from OW.

I think you are in a more difficult position as well, tully, because you took the children away to Ireland, and kept them there against their father's wishes. This was part of Plan B, based on Harley and supported strongly by most here at the time (including me, as you know), but it might be brought up by your H as a kind of alienation attempt in a custody dispute.

I'm not a lawyer and I am probably talking nonsense. I should appreciate Mr W's corrections if I am. I'm just trying to say that this should be done on strong legal grounds, not emotional ones.

You owe me an email, young lady.

So I am reading this right, if I told you..

"Sugarcane, that whole post was a complete waste of time and we are all immensely dumber for having read it"

...you "should appreciate" it but in all likelihood, maybe depending on my phrasing, would not really appreciate it?

Not that it is...I'm just checking.

(look I finally used an emoticon to clearly indicate I am just being sarcastic)


I'm not a divorce attorney in France let alone the US but as a tax attorney...I think your post is sound (I'm really just guessing at this divorce law stuff from all I've read on MB and a little outside reading on the net). I, too, see she's had this 2 week 1 week temporary custody agreement in place for quite awhile (on or around Nov. 2008?) so changing it is going to be an undertaking as "consistency" in the arrangements is often seen as a psuedo factor to protect the "best interests of the children". However, it IS a only a temporary custody agreement which means nothing has been settled. I think, eventually, a permanent final custody agreement (or court order) will have to be reached/obtained one way or another so legal fees are a necessity anyway...so her choice is to sit back a bit and gather evidence (maybe provoking a little a long the way to strengthen her documentary position) or move forward NOW (with the evidence she has already) and push for full (or a little more) custody in a FINAL custody agreement. The fight is coming SOMEDAY...she's just clarified what she's going for.

I recommend, in the meantime...she research/google "winning child custody in France" so she can prepare LOGICALLY and EMOTIONALLY for the eventual battle. Custody battle's are not fun.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I don't know all the facts of this poster, so I may be talking nonsense. I might oughta appreciate Sugarcane's corrections if I am. (I'm killing myself here)

tully, I want to make sure that your WORDS are speaking volumes to them, because SILENCE speaks ENDORSEMENT to little kids. My mother's silence and failure to validate my instincts about right and wrong were devastating to me as a child. My father was talking to me and teaching me that wrong was right. NO ONE corrected him. It caused massive moral confusion. Silence conveys endorsement of the message your H is sending, which is that WRONG IS RIGHT.

Kids need to recieve accurate, honest information about adultery and its effects. Are you confirming this is what they are recieving? Because silence in the absence of WORDS is endorsment and it screws up little kids.

I would not react aggressively or emotionally, but HONESTLY and ACCURATELY. They need accurate and truthful information and clear, concise MORAL GUIDANCE. The fact that you don't see the infidels but your DD's are forced to witness the affair has to be devastating to their moral clarity. They are getting mixed messages that are sure to lead to moral confusion without some CLEAR, CONCISE moral guidance. They need you to make sense of the sick, evil behavior that has been injected into their lives.

Maybe you are doing all this already, tully, but I just want to emphasize that silence will not suffice here. Your H and his skankho are not being SILENT at all. They are giving your DD's clear, concise IMMORAL TRAINING. And it will have an effect in the face of SILENCE. It will fill the vacuum if there is nothing there already.

Thank you for your responses. I am a bit concerned about my chances of winning. It seems from both my lawyers that changing the status quo is difficult unless there is some evidence that the situation is causing distinct problems for the children. In fact what they seem to be saying is that the best thing would be if the children said firmly that what they want is to be with me and even then it's a long way from sure that the judge would change the decision. I might need serious health problems (I know someone who struggled to have a shared custody decision reversed and it only worked when her daughter was diagnosed anorexic) or school problems and I'm doing my best to avoid any of these.

And yes, Sugar, he is playing the 'she took my children away from me' card very hard but it is clear from all communications that I said I would come back instantly if he agreed to break all contact with OW. He claims to have done that but now I have lots of proof that he never did.
I know, I promise I will. I have no internet at home at the moment and work is hectic. x

A pathetic excuse.

Big hugs.

No, I really would appreciate being told even that.

All affairs, divorces and custody battles are horrible, but tully is in an unusual position here on MB, with the international factor. We need to be careful not to give advice that would encourage tully on paths that set her back in the long run. So tell me when I'm wasting everybody's time and making you all dumber!

Mr W, I'm going to set Mrs W on to you. NOTHING I said in post was in any disagreement with you. I thought I was backing you up! I thought YOU were pushing the case for a "legal" approach, and I was adding my support for that!

However, I cannot resist a tiny factual correction: the 2-week 1-week deal has being gone on for longer; since late Spring, isn't it, tully? So that makes it even more of a precedent.

Wouldn't you say, Mr W, that the custody agreement imposed by the court back whenever is likely to be an anticipation of the normal custody agreement in France? It is temporary only because the divorce has not been settled, but there is no reason to suppose that it would change, without a strong case from tully?

And I'm not disagreeing with you here either, so don't start!