It was supposed to hit us at 3 p.m. but so far nothin. Oh I'm sure it's on its way, thanks. I heard someone in the grocery store say it already hit New York City and I'm about 1.5 hour north. Does Football ever end. My FWH told he's watching football and I said "on Saturday". Sorry I'm not big fan - takes up to much of my H's time (Sat., Sun. and Monday

Gg

I think there's a plot being hatched by the NFL to have at least one game every day of the week. Kind of like the National Burglar's Association (NBA).

They already have Monday, Thursday (every week for the past several) Saturday, Sunday and Sunday night. There's talk of expanding the season to 18 regular season games. They'll keep doing that until they run out of days, I think.

I think you're right. I've been catching up on your thread. What is Vietnemese Pho?

Gg

In one word, it's Heaven.

OK, seriously: Pho is beef noodle soup, Vietnamese style. As I understand it, it's actually a breakfast food, and is considered the national food of Vietnam.

It's a well-cooked broth into which thinly sliced pieces of beef, rice noodles, onions and a variety of spices are added. Diners have a plate of "condiments" they can add, which include bean sprouts, Thai basil, lime wedges, and hot pepper slices. One can add Sriricha hot sauce, plum sauce, nam pla (fish sauce, which is used in place of salt).

My description does not do it justice. I've heard it referred to as "comfort in a bowl." Just as the Jewish have their chicken soup, which heals everything, so is Pho to the Vietnamese. If you Google the recipe, you'll find it extraordinarily complex. Considering how inexpensive a bowl of this concoction runs, that makes it even more marvelous!

I have been known to have pho for lunch up to three times a week...

But then, I have an addictive personality.

I like soup. I'm going to have to try it. There's not to many V restaurants in my area. Maybe one trip to the city.

You wrote about owning up to the 50% of your part in the relationship. In any marriage conflict is good because it brings out the areas that need fixing but an A misplaces the guilt and blame. There are other ways to discover you need to improve. I spent a lot of time blaming myself (as many newly BS do) but I came to realize it was H's choice - I didn't make that choice for him. I eventually stopped feeling guilty for my part in the M. I never cheated on him and I never disrespected my H to the point where I treated him as badly as he treated me. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't rewrite your history with WW as a result of the A. She had four (or more) previous M and you were not around then. Your 50% that you considered negative may actually be a positive with someone esle in your future.


Gg

Thanks for the supportive words, gg. Rather than beat myself up, I want to learn from my mistakes and see that I don't repeat them. It's said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Having read a lot of MB, as well as SAA, I -know- that I contributed to the marital difficulties. But yes, I also know that I didn't cause WW to have an A. That was 100% her choice, and she owns 100% of it.

I still haven't done my tee chart (I guess I spent too much time Christmas decorating). I'm not afraid of what it will show me, although seeing it in print might be a bit of an eye-opener...

Watch your mouth!

I grew up in southern CT, just outside New Haven. Very mild there compared to MN.

After spending four hours cleaning my driveway and the sidewalk in front of the house, I came in, had some lunch and sat down at my desk. I started cleaning up the mess in my office and came across WW's phone records. I took a look at them as I was sorting them, and I noticed an interesting (to me, anyway) data point.

WW almost never calls OM. Instead, she racks up hundreds of text messages between the two of them every month. I've know this. What struck me though is that she always initiates the exchange. I am hard put to find a beginning exchange that he starts. He responds, of course, but he never starts the text message dialog.

Of course, this suggests to me that he's just playing her along, but that could just be my wishful thinking. I wonder: has anyone else noticed this pattern of communication between WS and OP?

Fred, you'll go a little nuts trying to deduce this stuff. There are probably all types of potential conclusions one could draw.
Try not to think about this stuff. I think many of us have found that the frequency of texting and calling is just many standard deviations away from what normal folks engage in.
In a way, it is comforting, as it shows just how crazy these folks act while cheating. They seem to devolve into teeny boppers in many respects.

You're right, Zelmo. Even looking at the phone records was a "mini-slip" in Plan B. I should just leave everything concerning WW alone.

Thanks.

No, PB, I am not a VWV. I was in Europe at the time I was of draft age and received a deferment.

Lynda and her husband Tom B. were friends of mine, and friends of Bill W. She was instrumental in getting the statue of the medics erected near the Vietnam War Veterans Memorial in Washington, DC. When she died (a direct result of her exposure to Agent Orange), the Vietnam Veterans organization sent massive bouquets and floral arrangements to the funeral home. In fact, her funeral had to be moved to a larger venue due to the massive number of people who showed up. It nearly shut down the small town that day!

Some of the stories in Lynda's book were used as the basis for episodes on the TV program, China Beach.

She was quite a woman, and a terrific friend.

And in my heart.

Thanks for sharing and paying it forward.

I had to share this, even though I don't yet know what to make of it...

At a meeting tonight, a man shared part of his story, and mentioned that in 1980 he'd had an affair. At the time he was quite full of himself, and felt that juggling two women was just the coolest thing. He expressed some regret about it, but then moved on to another topic.

After the meeting I asked him if he would answer a personal question. He agreed, and I queried, "How did your affair end?" He paused a bit and then said, "I married her. We've now been married for 25 years."

He went on to tell me that his first wife was bipolar and otherwise disordered, and that he didn't think they would have stayed together in any event.

But what really struck me was that he still carries feelings of guilt and shame, and says he's never gotten over it. Even though he was the WS. I could tell from the expression on his face that he wasn't pulling my leg. He said that his life has never been the same since, and that even though his life has been better since he sobered up, the A was a permanent cloud over his head.

As I said, I really don't know what to make of this. I was not prepared for his answer, thinking that the affair would have died its natural death, per Dr. Harley. Yet even though he married the OW, he feels regret and somehow "sullied" because of it. Even though his wife may not have been a prime candidate for mental health posterhood (he says they met doing LSD. How's that for an auspicious beginning), they were married for 10 years.

It wasn't what I expected, certainly. And I still don't know how to process this. Does anyone want to offer their opinion?

My take is that the guy has a conscience, which is good. He did something terribly wrong, as many of us have and it will always bother him.
I wonder if in working his program, he tried to make amends to the person he hurt.
My first wife , a serial cheater who once woke me up at 3 in the morning to describe the body of the young, professional bike racer she had been with that night while I watched out 2 boys, alone for the millionth time, claims to be a recovering alcoholic.
About 7 or 8 years after we divorced, she approached me at one of my sons football games and admitted cheating and apologized. After that, I was able to at least look her in the face when we had to talk about our children.
It was a small thing, a 20 second apology, nothing like the kind of effort a WS should make to make reparations. But, it was something.
I still do not think highly of her, but WSs should apologize for their own peace of mind. I am sure she felt better.

Zelmo, it seems like you know about A.A.'s Twelve Steps. Step Eight says, "(We) made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all." Step Nine reads, "(We) made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others."

I can imagine no greater harm -- short of murder -- that one person can do to another. Especially when that person is the one who is supposed to be closest to you.

During the time my WW lived in the house after D-day, I did a Ninth Step with my WW, for my part in the problems that led to her having an affair. I cried like I haven't cried in decades.

Perhaps some day, WW will recognize the harm she's done. But I'm not holding my breath waiting.

I'm reminded that the word "amend" does not mean "apologize." It means "change." The Founding Fathers did not apologize for writing the U.S. Constitution, rather, they changed it when they amended it to add the Bill of Rights.

I think your AA conversation reflects a few things - that while his conscience pains him, he still has excuses for cheating, which means he still has some 4th step work to do to come to terms.

When his cheating no longer is excused by his ex wife's bi-polar or other behavior - when it stands alone in the cold harsh light of day as evil in his own eyes, then he's ready to be healed of it.

As long as there are excuses, there is disease. And he's in danger of a relapse, greater than if he came clean about it - all the way.

I've been lying awake since reading Zelmo's reply (I really am Sleepless in VA) because something has been gnawing at me. Finally it hit me: Both KaylaAndy and Zelmo have used the word "conscience."

And that is what my WW lacks. Not only for her present behavior, but for just about everything she's done in her life. Oh, she feels guilt and remorse over leaving her kids, but she's never really been able to confront the real harm she's done to them. She calls and texts them every day, and tells them she loves them, but she's never done anything to make amends to them. My daughter (as usual) pointed out to me that even when they came to visit, she never did anything to help them with school work, or to be a true parent to them. She almost treats them like pets. She's never demonstrated any remorse for leaving her former husbands -- it was always "necessary" to further her growth.

A few people suggested she cared only for "my money." Not that I'm a rich man, but I earn a good living. My concept of a gold-digger was that of a woman who wanted her Sugar Daddy to drape her in jewels, furs and fancy clothes. I now see that her tastes weren't that extravagant, but she relied on my beneficence in a low-key way, and when it came to directly asking for money, it was always with an apology.

Now she's moved on to her new Sugar Daddy. Evidence suggests he's already paid for some of her expenses, which means the hooks are already set. She's found a place (he might be helping pay for that, too), and in just over two weeks, she's bringing the moving van I insisted she use, to complete her move out. Once she's got everything, she'll leave and never look back. That's my prediction. Because she doesn't have a conscience. In her mind, it's all my fault the marriage failed, and her affair is just part of "her journey." No guilt, no shame, no remorse. Just move on. To use one of her favorite phrases, "It is what it is."

Now if only I could get some sleep.

(I just noticed how many pages you have in your thread Fred!)

Anyway, your talk with the man reminds me that I was waiting at a coffee shop for my WH to leave our home (he was picking up stuff at the start of plan B) and I was very upset.

I struck up a conversation with a man at the next table. Told him I was waiting for my husband to leave and get the all clear from my intermediary.

Turned out that man at the other table had cheated on his first wife with a coworker and married the OW. Said they had been married 25 years. Said he was 'never attracted to his first wife'. Mentioned he and wife #1 had 3 kids.

I thought, but didn't say (due to my already tense condition), what rewriting of history he did. Obviously he was attracted enough to poor wife number one to knock her up three times. Sheesh.

I thought, that man is a looser. No matter how happy he thinks his second marriage has been for all these years...... it was built on crap.